gandydancer19 wrote:Yea. I like that one. I was wondering if you would do a loop around the saw mill and take it in to the town. Just seems to make sense to do that.
Don't I have a loop around the mill that goes to town? Or did you mean something different? How is my track arrangement in town? Does it look like it would be operational?
Mike
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Check this one out.
I don't think you need to make a special scene break. There are several things that can be used for a scenery break. A mountain, hill, road, stream or river, or a retaining wall.
So the mountain will be your natural scenery break. Plan your town tracks first so you can get the room that you need. Then see what you have left. Bring the mountain as close to town as you can. Maybe right at the back of a row of buildings. What I might do to improve the look of that area is use a canyon or valley of sorts. The logging line should be high enough on the left to cross over the main-to-staging track with a bridge. So I would try to make a steep valley or canyon that the main-to-staging track would run through, if only for a foot or so, before going into a tunnel. Build a nice looking wood bridge or trestle for your logging line over that track and the valley. And if you can work it out that you don't see the back of the valley or canyon when you are standing in a natural position facing it, so much the better. Curve the valley some if necessary.
Once you have planned your town, if there is enough room for the logging switchback like on the other plan behind the town, use it if you can. That puts your town in a valley or bowl. The higher the logging line, the more realistic it will look, to a point. If you can get your logging camp up to 18 inches above the town, it should look better. But you may not be able to go that high. The grade that you use will determine that. That is why you should make a test grade on a board and see how steep you can make it and still start a logging train using one of your logging engines.
There are some modelers that say your grades shouldn't be over 4%, but I have a different philosophy. If it's a logging line, and there is no switching involved on the main grade up, make it as steep as your equipment can handle. The ideal leveling off point should be one train length from the first turnout that you do car switching at. Level off at the last minute at the switchbacks, because there is no car switching there and the train stays together.
OK, I get it that everyone doesn't have a vivid imagination. How about building a model of your layout? Scale it down so your tracks and grades can be fairly accurate. The bench can be cut form a piece of 3/4 plywood, painted, and build on that. the scenery can be made with modeling clay and the tracks can be copper wire. I built one that way once. Never got to build the layout because of moving, but I figured it all out and it looked neat. And the tracks? Just make the mainline and one or two tracks to the mill, logging area, and town. Don't make all the yard and industry tracks. Although, you could print them out on paper and just lay them in there where they go. Then you can play with the mountain and scenery.
Ive been throwing around an idea similar to that. Should I have a scene break on the left of proposed town area before mountain with logging line? And make entire left penninsula a seperate scene. Or should I just have the mountain begin there at the edge of town? Sorry I have a bad imagination when it come to this part. I'll continue to work on it. Thanks for the ideas.
OK, I have been looking at this problem for a couple of days now. There may be another solution. You could do away with the middle peninsula. Put the town in the center space left-to-right toward the front of the bench work. From the right, start up a slight grade to the right peninsula and locate the mill complex there. From the mill, head out the way your main line staging track did before, and start going up as soon as you leave the mill. Put the logging line going behind the town on a mountainside going up the grade. Keep climbing until you get to the woods, which can stay where it was on the left.
The main line staging area can also be on the left under the woods as it was before.
Just an idea that I thought that I would share.
MPRR wrote: Thanks guys for all the info on helping me understand ops better with the logging RR. The buildings I have out by my camp are going to be the old recycled box car type and the would unloaded right off the rail. But how was this done? Did the use the crane car to take "rail car shanties" off track? If so, were the building taken off the truck and the trucks moved aside? or were buildings, trucks and all, lifted off and just "chucked" on the ground to keep from rolling? [(-D)
Thanks guys for all the info on helping me understand ops better with the logging RR. The buildings I have out by my camp are going to be the old recycled box car type and the would unloaded right off the rail. But how was this done? Did the use the crane car to take "rail car shanties" off track? If so, were the building taken off the truck and the trucks moved aside? or were buildings, trucks and all, lifted off and just "chucked" on the ground to keep from rolling? [(-D)
Mike, I hadn't seen a reply to this question included in the thread.
From what I've seen & read, there are two methods of dealing with this. First, if the housing is in "recycled box cars", then those are pushed on a temporary siding near the logging area. The trucks stay with the cars. These larger bunkhouses on a separate siding seems to be more common in western log camps.
The other option, seemingly more common in the east, is that the cabins are built atop relatively strong wood skids. The entire structure is then lifted atop an empty log car by the loader and transported to the new site, where it is set beside the track. For the railroad, this keeps the log car in service. A nice model of this style is found in the Walthers catalog (p556 in the 2008 catalog): JV Models "Bunkhouses or Line Storage Shed". I have several of these on my layout, and at a scale 20' long, they fit nicely atop Keystone log cars.
Temporary structures were sometimes also built as part of the log camp and were abandoned when the camp moved. Those books by Gove show some New England log camps with large log cabins for worker housing. I expect that when the operation cleared out, the log walls were pulled apart and sent to the mill. At Cass, WV, there were a number of bunkhouses just left up in the woods when the operation shut down. Some of these were still standing atop the mountain in the early 1980's. Cass was one of the larger eastern operations, and they also had some camp structures (like the cookhouse) that appear to have been on regular railcar frames (so one can mix & match bunkhouse styles as needed by your logging operation).
Bill
MPRR wrote: stein, I like your plan, and understand it, but you do realize that my benchwork is built. IN the shape I keep posting
Do you own a saw........?
A yard tends to be a long skinny thing. People want to put them in square footprints. Normally takes some awkward manuevering to to get anything in.
Actually your last drawing is getting pretty close. I would remove the S curve on the extreme right edge of the benchwork, that would give you enough room to put in a switch to the engine facilities along the inside/top side of the lower right peninsula.
Put a switch off the main to the turntable (the turn table lead), then on the turntable lead put a switch ASAP. that track will be the sand and coal track. It will go behind the coaling tower and is where the inbound supply of coal goes. The sandhouse can be between the coal track and the turntable lead. the water tower can go along the turntable lead or along the main between the switch to the turntable and the junction switch.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
OK, Mike, I've really got to tell you that I tried putting a town where you want yours. I have Atlas RTS 7.0. I couldn't get it to work. All of the sidings were too short to be of any value. I understand your concerns because you have your benchwork built already.
What I suggest that you do is to get some track and turnouts that you will be using anyway, make multiple paper patterns of them and then physically lay them out on your layout space for your town. You could also buy one curved turnout to make paper patterns of. Flip it over and you can trace it the other way for the opposite curve. Then you will actually be able to see what is happening. I use mostly flex track, but I have purchased enough Atlas 18" and 15" radius curved track to make a half circle. I then used it first to see if my equipment would run on the 15"R curve, and then to lay it out and see how it fit in the space I have, and if it would do what I wanted it to do. If you can get it to work, fine. If not, you should think about changing your benchwork. In any event, save Stein's plan so you can use it later if you need it.
Changing the whole layout around may work, but this time maybe you should design the town first and see where it will fit, and if you can work around it. Also, you could still put a divider, or tall steep mountain ridge that you can't see over, on the right peninsula, maybe at an angle or curve so you can still reach everything from each side.
My benchwork is built frame style with 1/2 plywood on top. Then I have 2" pink foam on that. It is all built in 4 section for when I moved. I would have to tear down the entire right penninsula section and completly rebuild that. I don't really want to do that if I can absolutly help it. I am considering adding on where I can, but to actually tear apart I could do without.
MPRR wrote: Maybe I should change givens/druthers.
Maybe I should change givens/druthers.
Most important thing is to make em explicit and explain to yourself why something is a given rather than a druther.
It seems to me like you are treating "not changing existing benchwork" as a given rather than a preference (a druther). I don't quite understand why this is a given for you.
Stein
quick brainstorm idea... What if I moved town/yard tracks to left penninsula right of divider... Moved Logging to right penninsula. Mill to left penninsula, right of divider. scenic along long wall section with 2-3 staging yards behind scenery . I could eliminate the hidden staging under hill, thus eliminating swithchback idea. And just make a long run from mill to logging sites.. With some grades..
Just an idea..
stein, I like your plan, and understand it, but you do realize that my benchwork is built. IN the shape I keep posting... Minus Mill penninsula. I know right penninsula is large, but I can reach all area. You are right that I might have to move from inside pit to outside... But I could eliminate some of that with powered turnout control. My wife also wants to particpate in some ops, so she/I could be swithchperson. I've thought about making an enclosed pit, eliminating mill penninsula, and extending town all the way over.. But my vehicle parks to left of layout, and I need small space at pit opening for car door to open. Thus the E shape. I think my plan could be a little different if I could put curved turnout2 in.. Track program doesnt have them available. My plan on paper does look a little different. Am I just trying to get too much for my space? Maybe I should change givens/druthers.
Thanks for the input. Don't worry about my toes... I'm looking for this constructive criticism.
MPRR wrote:Heres a couple new things I tried to see if would fit. The small plan on right side is a different configuration for the penninsula on right. Let me know what you think of them.
Heres a couple new things I tried to see if would fit. The small plan on right side is a different configuration for the penninsula on right. Let me know what you think of them.
What is different relative to your latest two plans ?
Town is long and narrow - you can make the operators pit in the center fairly large, and reach things.
Several parallell fairly long double ended tracks gives quite a bit of flexibility in operations - any of the three tracks can be used as arrival/departure track (well - only one for passenger operations), engine can escape from all three tracks to servicing area, engine can run around on any of the three tracks as long as one of the three tracks are free.
Most of the industries branch off in the same direction as the yard - you pull cars out of the yard tracks and back them in by the industries, or pull them out of the industries and back them into the yard tracks, in one move. Only one of four industries is on a switchback.
With the plan you are posting here, I think you might get problems with access - adding that central peninsula with the lumber mill creates two pretty narrow operator pits (one on each side).
The city peninsula is also pretty wide, and you will have to move all around this peninsula to reach tracks inside the city - perhaps reaching over a backdrop to grab stuff in the rightmost of the two drawings. The city also seem to have a few too many possible pathways between the various tracks.
Anyways - you asked for comments. Hope you don't feel that I have stepped on your toes with my comments.
Smile, Stein
I am currently re-doing the town and staging right now. And it does somewhat resemble what stein wrote. First, I put a long passing siding on each side of main from mill going to town, to the right of wye. One passing is to drop inbound to mill, and one is to hold outbounds from mill. I'll eliminate one of the tracks to staging.. Saves room too. I'm gonna see if I can get that town plan like steins to fit in my space. Thanks, I'll keep posted.
The new plan is getting there. I see some good changes Mike.
1- Since you have changed the location of the Mill and it is not connected to the town, the Mill plan is better. There would have been a lot of buildings associated with the Mill, but since it is on the peninsula, they can be imaginary off-layout buildings, like we all have. So to me, the Mill plan looks good. Not much improvement that I can see, other than what happens when two log trains come in at the same time? I think you need a place to hold one near the Mill on a passing track. Maybe a run-around / passing track at the Mill jct going around the wye.
2- Now that your town is by itself, the total track plan for it should be started over. Look at the plans in the layout contests that Space Mouse has run, and at yard & engine facility plans in any reference books you may have. You do have all of the elements there, but not arranged very efficiently for a RR.
3- Nothing wrong with using the coaling tower you have for the mainline trains. Most of the logging locos would be fueled by wood up in the woods. There would also be a stack of wood fuel at the Mill if needed. Both would have been simple stacks similar to what a modern pulpwood car carries, and would have been right beside and parallel to the tracks on the ground and would be stacked as high as the loco water/fuel deck.
4- The mainline going to your staging tracks only needs to be a single track. A double track into a small town at the end of the line is way over the top.
5- The connecting track from the Mill area might be better served if it was connected to the mainline track going to staging, but pointing into town like it is now.
For the town; I think that I would start by curving the mainline from storage to end at the lower left corner of the town bench work. Coming across that area of the layout at an angle, corner to corner as it were. Off on one side could be the yard and engine facilities, and off the other side could be the town and it's industries. This is only a suggestion as I don't know if it all would fit like that but makes sense. The passenger station would usually be on the main passing track that splits the scene between town and yard, and would be on the town side.
EDIT: Looks like Stein was writing his as I was writing mine as I didn't see it first. I like Stein's plan for the town.
Hope these suggestions help.
dehusman wrote:The town yard area is still pretty funky. A passenger train coming in from the outside world requires 2 or 3 switchbacks to reach the depot. There still is nowhere for a train coming from the outside world to drop its cars and pick up outbound cars There is really no place for a train from the mill to bring cars to go to the outside world. The only runaround in town for freight trains looks to be about 3 cars long.Just past the switch wher the lead to the staging tracks breaks from the main to the mill there needs to be two long runarounds, long being a train length, 5 to 6 feet. Breaking off of the leftmost runaround needs to be 2-3 tracks, each 2-3 ft long. Move the connection to the engine house closer to the yard.The water tower is in the wrong place. There needs to be two or three on the layout. At least 2 need to be accessible to trains on the main track. The one in the engine service area needs to be on the lead not back on the end of spur only accesible by the turntable.Dave H.
The town yard area is still pretty funky. A passenger train coming in from the outside world requires 2 or 3 switchbacks to reach the depot. There still is nowhere for a train coming from the outside world to drop its cars and pick up outbound cars There is really no place for a train from the mill to bring cars to go to the outside world. The only runaround in town for freight trains looks to be about 3 cars long.
Just past the switch wher the lead to the staging tracks breaks from the main to the mill there needs to be two long runarounds, long being a train length, 5 to 6 feet. Breaking off of the leftmost runaround needs to be 2-3 tracks, each 2-3 ft long. Move the connection to the engine house closer to the yard.
The water tower is in the wrong place. There needs to be two or three on the layout. At least 2 need to be accessible to trains on the main track. The one in the engine service area needs to be on the lead not back on the end of spur only accesible by the turntable.
Hmmm - how about something like this - town area is an adaptation of the basics from Ian Rice's "Charteris, Nebraska" plan from "Small, Smart & Practical Track Plans":
MPRR wrote: That was the plan.. I already own the coaling tower from previous layout and thought I'd use it for the small steamer that works town and outside world. Mike
That was the plan.. I already own the coaling tower from previous layout and thought I'd use it for the small steamer that works town and outside world. Mike
That was the plan.. I already own the coaling tower from previous layout and thought I'd use it for the small steamer that works town and outside world. I agree about the town yard. I was trying to see what will fit it the area. And I'm not sure if I'll have a passenger station. If I do, it will just be connected to outside world.
You say I need a runaround by mill area. I'll put a LH turnout at top of wye and runaround all the way to before turnout into town area. Off the runaround I should have 2 holdings sidings for inbound/outbound to mill. That should take care of a yard for mill. I'm gonna look back into some of my old MRR mags to look at small town areas. L shape 8' x 6'. The small service area would be for the town local 2-6-0. I know I show the service area better connected to lumber lines rather then industrial line in town. That will definatly be fixed. Not sure what I was thinking.. Probably working too fast. lol
MPRR wrote: "And I'm having trouble finding info on the subject... Unless I go buy some books.. Which probably in the very near future."
IMHO, doing the research first will make the construction more enjoyable and more realistic.
There are several recent books by Bill Gove on New England logging operations:
Logging Railroads of the Saco River Valley; Logging Railroads along the Pemigewasset River: and J. E. Henry's Logging Railroads. Each of these books contains numerous photos and each contains some track plans of sawmill areas. All have been published by Bondcliff Books. These are softbound books, so they aren't overly expensive, but they are printed on quality glossy paper that shows the photo detail well.
Another book of interest for this area is Rails in the North Woods (1978) by Richard Allen, William Gove, Keith Maloney, and Richard Palmer. This was published by North Country Books. Although I believe it is now out of print, I have seen copies recently showing up at train shows.
I think that studying some of those old photos will not only result in a revised track plan, but also will provide dozens of ideas for the detailing of individual scenes on your railroad. Although much of lower elevations were logged out early, the books cited do have multiple examples of the later operations deeper in the mountains. Many of these lines had an interesting mix of both geared and rod engines, including some nifty saddle-tankers.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote: HEdward wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:I've never had a coaling tower on a layout. You might be thinking of the Rock Ridge mine tipple.I was referring to the layout in question on this thread. The word interchange through me. I saw his layout as an industry, not two railorads exchanging rolling stock. I have had interchange tracks on my layouts.
HEdward wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:I've never had a coaling tower on a layout. You might be thinking of the Rock Ridge mine tipple.I was referring to the layout in question on this thread.
SpaceMouse wrote:I've never had a coaling tower on a layout. You might be thinking of the Rock Ridge mine tipple.
I was referring to the layout in question on this thread.
The word interchange through me. I saw his layout as an industry, not two railorads exchanging rolling stock. I have had interchange tracks on my layouts.
I'm still wondering about the coaling tower. If not for the locos from the outside world, since the logging RR supplies it's own fuel, then for whom does this structure exist?