2 x 8 Contest Deconstruction

[chadw]

After I thought about it some more, I figure that the club Idea may be too hard to coordinate.

I like the 32 square foot idea too, but I think a good way to make it a challenge would be to make it sort of a selective compression challenge.  Take a protoype and condense it to 32 square feet while retaining the overall feel and operations.

Basically it would mean taking something like this: Garrett Snuff Mill Complex (note: link is to a fairly large file and may take a while to load, those with a slow connection are lucky I didn't link to the high res version at 19390KB!), and fitting it into a small space preserving operations and scenic elements while taking into consideration access requirements and space constraints.

[SpaceMouse]

Well as near as I can tell here is a summary of the ideas so far:

• SpaceMouse - 2 x 4 N-trak sound
      clarification: simulated N-trak club. groups of 4, each group coming up with a theme for a portable 12 x 12 layout.
• exPalaceDog - 1 x 8 N-scale book shelf switching module
• loathar, L Cowan, vsmith - logging  (loathar specifically said narrow gauge)
• stilson4283 - I like the idea of an n-scale contest.
• chadw - likes Spacemouse "club" 12x12 idea
• wm3798 - 32 Square Feet" challenge
• tomikawaTT - eight Armstrong squares
• packers#1 - 4x8 n scale

I wouldn't mind and would participate in any of these if the rules were fairly clear.  Like on the logging - what size limit?  In the 32 sft Why would one need a person size cut out rather than a hand reach in or head pop up?  

Of course there is always the combination - logging in 32 square feet type thing. 

And I'll throw out my idea from another thread - the Hoboken Industrial on an "h", "F", double "L", straight "Z" or other pre-determine, pre-sized shelf, configuration in some other-than-standard-scale neutral size (like 1/100th).

I dunno, compared to last time, I think we almost agree.

Of the bunch, I like Lee's 32 feet idea. It adds a new dimention to the contest. I think though that we have to have a room size limit, say 13' x 13'. Otherwise we might end up with a 6" x 64 ft Z-scale layout. I'd like our designs to be useful to someone.

While squares would give all scale users an equal footing, I figure there's enough people here that don't know what squares are, let alone how to figure them out broken up in XtrkCAD.   

 

 

[Texas Zepher]

Well as near as I can tell here is a summary of the ideas so far:

• SpaceMouse - 2 x 4 N-trak sound
      clarification: simulated N-trak club. groups of 4, each group coming up with a theme for a portable 12 x 12 layout.
• exPalaceDog - 1 x 8 N-scale book shelf switching module
• loathar, L Cowan, vsmith - logging  (loathar specifically said narrow gauge)
• stilson4283 - I like the idea of an n-scale contest.
• chadw - likes Spacemouse "club" 12x12 idea
• wm3798 - 32 Square Feet" challenge
• tomikawaTT - eight Armstrong squares
• packers#1 - 4x8 n scale

I wouldn't mind and would participate in any of these if the rules were fairly clear.  Like on the logging - what size limit?  In the 32 sft Why would one need a person size cut out rather than a hand reach in or head pop up?  

Of course there is always the combination - logging in 32 square feet type thing. 

And I'll throw out my idea from another thread - the Hoboken Industrial on an "h", "F", double "L", straight "Z" or other pre-determine, pre-sized shelf, configuration in some other-than-standard-scale neutral size (like 1/100th).

[steinjr]

Then again it also suffered from the presentation aspect like I believe mine did.  The "colorful" representations got higher marks then the black & white ones.  I sort of noticed this in the prior constests as well.  Concept does not necessarily win over a good looking picture of a lesser concept.

Sorry, but I am not so sure about that. Look at the two layouts that got most points - Fergus and Port Barber

You are taking the word colorful to literally.  That is why I put it in quotes.  I didn't mean color literally that was the only sort of generic term I could think of without going into a paragraph explaination.  There are contrast and washout issues going here as well.  Both the other BW layouts you mention had great contrast and one did not have to enlarge the image to be able to tell what they are. 

 And yet your layout (which had a poorer quality image of an - IMO - about average quality design) ended up in 8th place while Butler (which had a perfectly fine quality image of a not so good track plan) ending up in 9th place, ahead of 4 layouts that all had images that were easy to read (Random, Hockesin, Industry and Greenbank).

 I don't feel that your design was unfairly penalized for having a poor quality image. It ended up about roughly in the middle of a cluster consisting of Thawville, Corydon, Unknown, Arkansas Valley and Random.

 All perfectly fine layouts captured the small agricultural town feeling. But also all layouts that failed to impress the voters as much as Fergus, Port Barber, Landenberg and Komatsu.

 I don't think Port Barber or Butler was penalized for poor image quality either. Butler came in ninth, ahead of four of the other layouts. Not at all bad for this design, which has quite a few weaknesses.

  And Port Barber did pretty well to came in second, quite a bit ahead of Landenberg, despite being a poorer representation (from my point of view) of a small agricultural town.

 I realize that the structures described would signal small rural fishing town instead of busy industrial harbor, but to me, the Port Barber track plan would be more appropriate for that cramped big city harbor feel - with tracks crisscrossing each other at double slips and the use of switchbacks to get around tight corners. 

 But that's just me. The voters have spoken to decide on the ranking of the layouts. And "Vox populi, vox dei" - the voice of the people is the voice of God.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Packers#1]

Well at least from my end this was the easiest. There were not as many problems, however, there did seem to be some misunderstanding as to what was the goals. There were a lot of LDE type layouts although, when it time to establish the rules that requirement was axed. Still some good layouts got low votes.

What next guys--a rest or another one? How does a 2 x 4 N-trak sound?

4x8 n scale. Let's see who can fit the best layout in a decent space for n-scale.

[wm3798]

Chuck,

I'm not sure what an Armstrong Square is, I suppose it is a scale-able square foot...  I don't think so.  I'm thinking in terms of a real corner in a real room with real limitations.  32 square feet of surface area... but yes, the "man holes" have to be able to accommodate a model railroader of standard girth... 

There is flexibility in the scale to allow for individual expression within the bounds of the space available.  I'm thinking there's a lot of guys out there who have a corner of the family room available, and this is an opportunity to for them to get up off the arm chair and design something that fits their specific space.  Allowing the space to flex with the scale is too arbitrary for my tastes, and doesn't address the one real world problem we all face....

Some will envision a 4x8 box, that's fine.  Some will see a shelf layout that runs 32'.  That's fine, too.  I just want to see what folks come up with that can go into a corner, but uses only 32 square feet.

The urban part is just my way of being arbitrary!  But even that offers a good potential for variety.  You could do a harbor scene, or a warehouse district, or a downtown passenger terminal... whatev.

So whaddya say everyone?

Lee 

 

[Texas Zepher]

Then again it also suffered from the presentation aspect like I believe mine did.  The "colorful" representations got higher marks then the black & white ones.  I sort of noticed this in the prior constests as well.  Concept does not necessarily win over a good looking picture of a lesser concept.

Sorry, but I am not so sure about that. Look at the two layouts that got most points - Fergus and Port Butler.

You are taking the word colorful to literally.  That is why I put it in quotes.  I didn't mean color literally that was the only sort of generic term I could think of without going into a paragraph explaination.  There are contrast and washout issues going here as well.  Both the other BW layouts you mention had great contrast and one did not have to enlarge the image to be able to tell what they are. 

[tomikawaTT]

Instead of 32 square feet, how about eight Armstrong squares, assembled any which way.  Only surface area counts, but access holes and aisleways must be big enough to fit real people in the scale the entrant specifies.

My thinking is that this would provide a level playing field for any scale, from N/3 in a briefcase to live steam in a back yard.  No more grousing about favoring only one scale...

Incidentally, since Mark Newton models in 1:80, maybe he should have been allowed a space 26" by 104"...(ducking for cover!)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - also in 1:80 scale)

[SpaceMouse]

Lee,

I could live with that.

[wm3798]

I guess I'll get in on the front end of this one...

I'd say no to N trak modules, too, they're already too restrictive.  You might be able to vary the scenic treatment, but unless you can combine several together, you pretty much have three tracks running across the front edge of the 2x4, and maybe a siding or two.  I also don't see how you can have 4 people work together to coordinate a design without it bogging down.

I like the idea of a "32 Square Feet" challenge (and I'd call it a challenge, not a contest since we are creating a puzzle to be solved and there's really nothing at stake).

For the framework, I would say any scale, any style (continuous running, point to point, etc.) and set the only parameters being that it has to nest in a corner against two walls, and the scene should be urban.  I suggest the corner because I bet for every 1 modeler who has room for a 4x8, there are 10 who have a corner to work with.

32 sq. ft. is 32 sq. ft.  If you choose to do a 4x8, you just have to address the against the wall issue in terms of accessibility.  If you use a 2x2 pop up, that 2x2 can be moved to expand the layout elsewhere.  In other words, holes in the middle don't count against the 32 sq. ft. but the layout surface area cannot exceed 32 square feet.

How's that for a simple approach? 

Lee 

[chadw]

Spacemouse I like that idea for planning a club layout. I already have an idea for a good theme...

About coloring the plans, my plans' (Greenbank, Hockessin, Landenberg) track was drawn on XtrkCAD and everything else was added in Paintshop Pro 8. To color a plan I use the draw tool and set the stroke to appropriate color and thickness and the fill to the right color. After drawing the buildings I add roads with the color replacer so I don't erase the rails. The ties show but are easily removed with the fill tool. I add bridges with a square paintbrush with the thickness turned down, then use brown with the color replacer to draw the banks of the streams. I fill in between the banks with a light blue textured with the "tin foil" texture. Once all of that is done I fill the are with the appropriate ground cover color and texture. Finally I use a round paintbrush and a darker green to put some trees on the plan and the scenery is done. To finish the plan I increase the canvas size and add letter labels to the buildings with a key referencing scenic features in the expanded area.

That sounded alot moe complicated than it actually is. It usually only takes me about 10-15 min. to color a small plan like the last contest's plans. It takes a bit of time but I think it really makes the plan look better.

[steinjr]

I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on, ....I still think my layout was a sound concept,

Which layout was yours?

 His layout was Butler, Indiana - pencil drawn layout that was rather optimistic about how much you can fit into 2x8 feet. 

Ah yes,  It was a sound concept.   Just not in the available space.

 Somehow, those 12" radius curved sidings on both sides of the elevator, double high speed mainlines with small radius S-curves where passenger cars would be likely to derail and tight interchange with room for one car just didn't work for me. 

 Even if it had been stretched out over 3x12 feet or whatever it would have taken to fit all the components in the sketch.

Then again it also suffered from the presentation aspect like I believe mine did.  The "colorful" representations got higher marks then the black & white ones.  I sort of noticed this in the prior constests as well.  Concept does not necessarily win over a good looking picture of a lesser concept.

 Sorry, but I am not so sure about that. Look at the two layouts that got most points - Fergus and Port Butler.

 Not all that colorful. Fergus has a couple of green RR cars - rest of drawing is black white plus grey for roads. Butler is pretty monochrome too - mostly red on grey background, with some yellow numbers here and there.

 The most colorful layouts were Corydon, Greenbank, Landenberg and Hockesin. Landenburg ended up in third spot, with Corydon sixth, Hockesin and Greenbank both scored lower than Arkansas Valley.

 Presentation clearly matters. But it is not quite as decissive as you seem to think.

 Komatsu got almost twice as many votes as Arkansas Valley, finishing 4th, just a few votes behind Landenberg.

 It would be very hard to make a plainer drawing than the illustration for Komatsu. No trace of color. Stark black and white.

 I think you will need to dig a little deeper than color to figure out why your layout came in at 8th place this time.

 For me, the main reason for not voting for Arkansas Valley (instead of one of the layouts I voted for - Landenberg, Komatsu and Fergus) is that Arkansas Valley just didn't have anything special. Nothing wrong with Arkansas Valley, but nothing that made me go "hmmmm!" either.

 Sorry.

 Stein

 

[SpaceMouse]

The "colorful" representations got higher marks then the black & white ones.  I sort of noticed this in the prior constests as well.  Concept does not necessarily win over a good looking picture of a lesser concept.

I noticed this as well and I attempted to compensate. Unfortunately I failed miserably because I could not figure out my paint program. What I ended up with was not very good and I wasted a lot of time that could have gone toward improving my layout--which by the time of the end of the contest, I had figured could use some tweaking.

Presentation goes for the non-discerning vote.

 

[Texas Zepher]

I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on, ....I still think my layout was a sound concept,

Which layout was yours?

 His layout was Butler, Indiana - pencil drawn layout that was rather optimistic about how much you can fit into 2x8 feet. 

Ah yes,  It was a sound concept.   Just not in the available space.

Then again it also suffered from the presentation aspect like I believe mine did.  The "colorful" representations got higher marks then the black & white ones.  I sort of noticed this in the prior constests as well.  Concept does not necessarily win over a good looking picture of a lesser concept.

[steinjr]

I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on,

....I still think my layout was a sound concept,

Which layout was yours?

 His layout was Butler, Indiana - pencil drawn layout that was rather optimistic about how much you can fit into 2x8 feet. 

 Stein

 

[exPalaceDog]

As for the next project, the Old Dog would suggest something on the lines of the book shelf N-Scale layout article published by MR in Jan and Feb of 1977. The straight modules were 7.5" by 48", the corner modules were 32" by 32". Loop modules, 24" by 48" were described.

The concept was that the layout would be mounted fairly high on the walls like a book shelf to allow the room to be used for other functions.

Have fun

[SpaceMouse]

My only beef with the n-track module idea is we just did a sort of modular thing. I think it would be interesting to see what people can do with a classic 4x8. Not 4x8 in shape (although that would be fine).. but 32 square feet that could be cookie cuttered out of a 4x8 board.

 

Actually, I was thinking of doing a more of a simulated N-trak club. We would divide into groups of 4, each group coming up with a theme and then working together to come up with a portable 12 x 12 layout.

 

[Texas Zepher]

I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on,

....I still think my layout was a sound concept,

Which layout was yours?

[ChrisNH]

I have hestiated to critique.. I try to stick to positive comments about the ones I vote on.

Whatever you do, as a voter I would keep the format simple. The way it worked the last two was about as much complication as I can handle.

My only beef with the n-track module idea is we just did a sort of modular thing. I think it would be interesting to see what people can do with a classic 4x8. Not 4x8 in shape (although that would be fine).. but 32 square feet that could be cookie cuttered out of a 4x8 board.  

Chris 

[exPalaceDog]

Nope. Speaking as a voter, I'd pass and just look at the entries.Way too complicated for this MRR.I quit reading the voting explaination half-way thru.

Terry

WOW! You actually made it 1/2 way through that?? That's further than I did!

Let's try again, hopefully the Old Dog has provided a better description this time.

 

Possible approach;

 

When a contest is initiated, the contest manager makes starts the thread and makes three posts;

• 1) A post defining the scope, requirements , and criteria for the contest
• 2) A post providing a "form" for a designer to enter the contest. This "form" would provide an outline to insure that the require information is include.
• 3) A post providing a "form" for voters to vote in the contest. This "form" would include a list of criteria to be used to rate the layout with space for comments after each criteria item and space for general overall comments at the end.

 

The posters simple copy and "fill in" the appropriate "form"

 

The exact form of the three posts will need to be fought out later.

 

Goals;

• 1) For the contest manage;
• a. To provide a format that is easy to initiate. In particular, provide a format that does NOT require the manager to build a web page of a server somewhere before the rating can start. Raters are free to rate each layout as it is entered.
• b. To provide a format that is easy to tally in the end. Scoring would be by adding the points received for each criteria item on the rating forms.
• 2) For the layout designers;
• a. To provide a format that is easy to use to enter, simply "fill in" a "form"
• b. To provide a format that will insure relevant issues are addressed in describing the entry. Filling in the "form" acts as a checklist to insure all items all included
• 3) For the contest raters;
• a. To provide a format is easy to use for rating, simply "fill in" a "form"
• b. To provide a format that encourages feedback to the ALL designers
• i. To provide a format to insure the desired items are considered in the rating. Filling in a "form" acts as a check list.
• ii. To provide a format that encourages raters free to rate as many or as few layouts as they desire. If a poster rates a layout multiple times, the last rating counts. (the idea here is to provide feedback to all the designers, not just the top three)
• iii. To provide a format that encourages comments in addition to the ratings by providing space for comments between the criteria.

 

To enter the contest or rate a layout a poster would;

• 01) Place a copy of the layout location (URL) on their clipboard
• 02) Go to page one, for the entry form or the rating form
• 03) Click the "Quote" button
• 04) When the window opens, paste the URL in the space provided using the Insert Image button
• 05) Delete the Quote delimiters at the top and bottom
• 06) Fill in the other items
• 07) Hit the "Post" button

 

[loathar]

Nope. Speaking as a voter, I'd pass and just look at the entries.Way too complicated for this MRR.I quit reading the voting explaination half-way thru.

Terry

WOW! You actually made it 1/2 way through that?? That's further than I did!

I actually got some good ideas from this last contest, so I guess it does have more merit than just being a competition.
(this comes from a person that first thought they were a waste of band width also.)

[steinjr]

 

 IMHO ; Contests and challenges are a waste of bandwith - 'someone else's' bandwith. Aren't these forums supposed to be the sharing of info et al ? Not to be cranky about it but isn't that why most forums discourage the - 'what color is your favourite ....?' polls that were trendy for a while.

There is alot of perhaps useful information that I have missed or not passed on because I avoid these type of threads.

 Just a thought - sorry to rain on the parade.

Your completely entitled to that opinion and I do respect it, but I have to strongly disagree, and BTW you've contradicted yourself , you said forums are about the sharing of ideas, well isnt that EXACTLY WHAT THESE CONTESTS DO?

Sharing ideas  - and competing are TWO different things.

Some people won't share and will purposely not - because it turns into a competition.

 Mmm - yes and no.

 I can see that some people maybe would shy away from participating in a contest like situation that would expose their idea to being judged and critiqued by others. Like the person who posted one of the layouts in the 2x8, and then felt that his idea had been "dragged through hot coals" or some such thing, after it had been pointed out that his design just would not be possible to build within the available footprint.

 But at Tomikawa points out, this can happen with any post, not just posts in contest threads.

 Whenever I share something on a public board, I open myself up to having someone pointing out that my idea is somewhat less brilliant that I thought.

 Has happened to me a _lot_ down through the years. Bad for my self esteem, good for my ability to learn from my mistakes before they get to the stage when it is really expensive to rip them out and fix them :-)

 At the same time I can agree with you that the voting part is mostly wasted time.

 I fundamentally do not care that much which layout is voted best - what I mostly care about is seeing what solutions other people have come up with to model a smallish town in 2x8 feet in H0 scale.

 By all means - my ears are not this pointy - I am human enough that it of course makes me happy that quite a few people liked my design - but I get my kicks more from having people whose opinion I respect comment on my layout than I do from having people voting for it. 

 I see the voting process more as the necessary cost to keep the layouts in focus long enough to have people comment on them than as a goal in itself.

 I also enjoy discussing why something was designed the way it was.

 During the contest phase I read or took part in interesting (at least for me) side discussions about at least five or six layouts:

- Butler, Indiana 
- Port Barber
- Komatsu Line
- Corydon  I started a separate thread about the extremely interesting prototype the Corydon layout was based on, and learned a lot about this shortline.
- I liked (and commented on) a late entry that was posted in a separate thread - calplanner's Citrus Branch

- And of course - I had interesting discussions with Old Dog (and several others) about various aspects of the Fergus layout - like foreground industries and elbow room.

 We didn't agree on whether the Fergus layout had too many foreground structures, but it was useful to review the concept of elbow room, and be re-reminded that one way of compensating for access problems would be to lower the layout so you look more down instead of in on it, another to push foreground structures out to the left and right foreground (like in calplanner's layout above and in several other designs I have made of other prototypes - Hiawatha Avenue and Progressive rail in 7x2 feet), a third by not actually modelling the aisle side industries, just the tracks leading to them.

 The last point about not modelling aisle side industries carried over to another thread exPalaceDog posted on his rules of the thumb for picking industries for a layout and how to model them.

  A non-exhaustive handful things I feel learned (or was reminded of) from this last contest, in no particular order

• Who would have thunk about a layout that would have room for both MU'ing electric interurbans to deliver school kids to school during rush hour, and do time critical deliveries to interchange of fresh fish ? 
• As someone else mentioned - mushroom farms. And snuff mills. Industries I have never seen modelled before - there might be a rush to model them now.
• Modelling an interchange on layout by letting the track curve towards another line crossing the diagonally, but not actually connecting the two tracks - gives longer interchange tracks.
• To get the feel of small midwestern (US) towns - mainline through town should probably be reasonably straight. Sidings could be on both sides of the main - but watch access on the aisle side.
• You can create interesting layout modules both based on a prototype (e.g Fergus or Corydon) and layouts heavily modified from earlier layout plans (Port Butler or Citrus Branch). Citrus Branch (see separate thread - link above) was based on Westcott's the Switchman's Nightmare - but calplanner still pulled off a layout that looks good.
• You can build a small town module with a lot of tracks and lots of switching crammed into a relatively small place (e.g. Fergus, MN or Port Barber) or a town that have few tracks and little switching, but still conveys the flavor of smalltown America reasonably well (e.g. Thawville, IL or Greenbank, DE). Or in other words - a town can also be a scenic element that helps establish the setting for your railroad.

 There must be piles of stuff I haven't mentioned. But there is stuff to be learned from these contests - if you approach them as a way to generate something that can be discussed, rather than approach them as a "who will win" race.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[ICRR1964]

1train1, These contest are fun for allot of people, some do enter, and allot of people share their thoughts and Ideas in this type of contest. Its a good learning curve so to speak if you really think about it.

If you really stop and think about it, someone may or could build a small layout or section from the drawings and ideas, so many people profit from this type of contest. Stick around and watch this thread, their are plenty of people who are very talented in designing, and in the end we all learn something.

[stilson4283]

Once again I would have to say good contest.  Next time I will make sure I read the rules more closely to be sure I am within the specifications of the contest.

To be honest with no prizes, ribbons or special ceremony I have taken the last two contest I have taken part in as a "what is your idea" than a competition.  I find that it is nice to have people with different ideas than I do, some I like, some I don't.  But that is the great thing about this forum you get many ideas from many different skill levels.

I like the idea of an n-scale contest.  That gives those n-scalers a bone that complained about the contest for this one being HO only.  Plus that will make me look into those n-scale rules and change my thinking from 1/87th to 1/160th.   

Chris

Lancaster, CA

[tomikawaTT]

Sharing ideas  - and competing are TWO different things.

Some people won't share and will purposely not - because it turns into a competition.

So what do you think about chess, baseball, ping-pong, football, golf, or monopoly? Can't competition be fun?

All of life is competition, even when you're only competing with yourself.  (If that wasn't true, nobody would play solitaire and Rubic would never have sold a cube.)

Some people won't share - because they don't want to lose their edge in the competition or because they don't want to admit that they're behind in the competition.  (If that hadn't been true all through recorded history the words military secret would be meaningless.)

Good clean fun competition is interesting from the point of view of both the competitors and the spectators (who often learn things that they would have never thought of themselves.)  The problem is, too many people only think competition is fun IF THEY WIN.  It never occurs to them that they can learn from failing to win.

About learning things - I, personally, would never have thought of a mushroom farm as a source of traffic.  Now, I'm thinking of suggesting the idea to the folks who run my 'Three couples and a dog' marginal coal mine.  (I have a sister-in-law who makes very good money collecting mushrooms, which are obscenely expensive in Japan.)

I enjoy these layout competitions, even though I'm unlikely to enter one.  Since I'm more than a little challenged when it comes to creating and transmitting graphics, I'll be content to hang out on the outskirts, observing and learning.

I already know that I'm not too old to learn.  I certainly hope I'm not too stupid to learn.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - good ideas welcome)

[vsmith]

 

 IMHO ; Contests and challenges are a waste of bandwith - 'someone else's' bandwith. Aren't these forums supposed to be the sharing of info et al ? Not to be cranky about it but isn't that why most forums discourage the - 'what color is your favourite ....?' polls that were trendy for a while.

There is alot of perhaps useful information that I have missed or not passed on because I avoid these type of threads.

 Just a thought - sorry to rain on the parade.

Your completely entitled to that opinion and I do respect it, but I have to strongly disagree, and BTW you've contradicted yourself , you said forums are about the sharing of ideas, well isnt that EXACTLY WHAT THESE CONTESTS DO?

Sharing ideas  - and competing are TWO different things.

Some people won't share and will purposely not - because it turns into a competition.

If you "share" an idea online, dont you automaticly open your self to critisism by any randon replier anyway, or someone posting a "thats good, but this is better" reply, isnt that in itself a form of "mine ideas better" competition? so wheres the difference?

Little tough to consider it "competition" when you dont know what the other entrants have till Chip posts it. Its quit literally a case of "run your idea up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes".

No one really wins ANTHING in these competitions, there just a little creative fun, theres no REAL competition, no prizes, no ribbons, just people showing their ideas and design approaches. I pulled my own entry out of this last go around. I knew it didnt fit the criteria, so I yanked it.  No big deal.

Besides those who won't share, wouldn't enter projects like this in the first place, so where's the difference, those who want to share their ideas will willingly participate, those who wont for whatever reasons, will sit it out anyway, in the meantime everyone else whos interested in the process can share in the results. 

I guess I'm having a really hard time decerning your POV. I really dont see a difference.

[SpaceMouse]

Sharing ideas  - and competing are TWO different things.

Some people won't share and will purposely not - because it turns into a competition.

So what do you think about chess, baseball, ping-pong, football, golf, or monopoly? Can't competition be fun?

[1train1]

 

 IMHO ; Contests and challenges are a waste of bandwith - 'someone else's' bandwith. Aren't these forums supposed to be the sharing of info et al ? Not to be cranky about it but isn't that why most forums discourage the - 'what color is your favourite ....?' polls that were trendy for a while.

There is alot of perhaps useful information that I have missed or not passed on because I avoid these type of threads.

 Just a thought - sorry to rain on the parade.

Your completely entitled to that opinion and I do respect it, but I have to strongly disagree, and BTW you've contradicted yourself , you said forums are about the sharing of ideas, well isnt that EXACTLY WHAT THESE CONTESTS DO?

Sharing ideas  - and competing are TWO different things.

Some people won't share and will purposely not - because it turns into a competition.

[SpaceMouse]

 

 IMHO ; Contests and challenges are a waste of bandwith - 'someone else's' bandwith. Aren't these forums supposed to be the sharing of info et al ? Not to be cranky about it but isn't that why most forums discourage the - 'what color is your favourite ....?' polls that were trendy for a while.

There is alot of perhaps useful information that I have missed or not passed on because I avoid these type of threads.

 Just a thought - sorry to rain on the parade.

People enjoy different parts of the layout building process otherwise few layouts would never get built. Some people like track work, some like scenery, some like building structures, and some like layout design.

The ones that like layout design, have fun helping people and facing new and greater design challenges. Many times the way they solve a problem becomes part of their layout.

Now you can see this as a waste of bandwidth, but it is very small a because except for the funny mouse pictures, there aren't a lot of graphics, and text is relatively a small bandwidth user.

If you want to conserve bandwidth, go yank the chain of the people who post multiple large pictures on photo fun. Besides, a thread doesn't use any bandwidth if you don't click on it.

[SpaceMouse]

I thought it would be fun to enter, but quickly discovered that I do not have what it takes to compete here.

I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on,vs the 10,000 (weekly) posts of "gimme a layout idea" (ad nauseum)

I still think my layout was a sound concept, I got mired down in the fastrak software, and will NOT return to it. Ever. Unfortunately, my redrawn (over super light blue) fastrak submission looked poor. I did not expect to be lambasted over every detail, but that was due to my naivete' in how this works.

You may note that I did not vote at all.I will continue to enjoy the forum, but will shy away from the building contests and their threads.

It's too bad that you feel that way. While I think that a design should work, and it's a limitation of drawing a plan without either software or a template, a person should not be dragged over the coals for an attempt.

For what it's worth, there were some good innovative components to your submission. Too bad you had a problem with the software.