Well at least from my end this was the easiest. There were not as many problems, however, there did seem to be some misunderstanding as to what was the goals. There were a lot of LDE type layouts although, when it time to establish the rules that requirement was axed. Still some good layouts got low votes.
What next guys--a rest or another one? How does a 2 x 4 N-trak sound?
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote: What next guys--a rest or another one? How does a 2 x 4 N-trak sound?
What, you want MORE pain?
How about a 1 x 8 N-scale book shelf switching module that must allow for a through single track mainline say 3" from the front?
Have fun
exPalaceDog wrote: What, you want MORE pain?
Nope, I'm content to let sleeping dogs lie, so to speak.
This concept cleanly needs more work, but provide a frame work for discussion
Goals;
Possible approach;
When a contest is initiated, the contest manager makes starts the thread and makes three posts;
The exact form of the three posts will need to be fought out later, but;
The first post might include such items as;
The second post might include a "form" that might include items such as;
The thirds post would include a "form" that might include items such as;
To enter the contest, a designer would
To vote, a poster would
Notes
Nope. Speaking as a voter, I'd pass and just look at the entries.Way too complicated for this MRR.I quit reading the voting explaination half-way thru.
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
I thought it would be fun to enter, but quickly discovered that I do not have what it takes to compete here.
I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on,vs the 10,000 (weekly) posts of "gimme a layout idea" (ad nauseum)
I still think my layout was a sound concept, I got mired down in the fastrak software, and will NOT return to it. Ever. Unfortunately, my redrawn (over super light blue) fastrak submission looked poor. I did not expect to be lambasted over every detail, but that was due to my naivete' in how this works.
You may note that I did not vote at all.I will continue to enjoy the forum, but will shy away from the building contests and their threads.
IMHO ; Contests and challenges are a waste of bandwith - 'someone else's' bandwith. Aren't these forums supposed to be the sharing of info et al ? Not to be cranky about it but isn't that why most forums discourage the - 'what color is your favourite ....?' polls that were trendy for a while.
There is alot of perhaps useful information that I have missed or not passed on because I avoid these type of threads.
Just a thought - sorry to rain on the parade.
1train1 wrote: IMHO ; Contests and challenges are a waste of bandwith - 'someone else's' bandwith. Aren't these forums supposed to be the sharing of info et al ? Not to be cranky about it but isn't that why most forums discourage the - 'what color is your favourite ....?' polls that were trendy for a while. There is alot of perhaps useful information that I have missed or not passed on because I avoid these type of threads. Just a thought - sorry to rain on the parade.
Your completely entitled to that opinion and I do respect it, but I have to strongly disagree, and BTW you've contradicted yourself , you said forums are about the sharing of ideas, well isnt that EXACTLY WHAT THESE CONTESTS DO?
To me, contests like this are whats great about these forums, we get to see how different modelers respond to a given set of criteria that is often very similar to what alot of us run into planning our own layouts, be seeing these different responses we are able quite often to find solutions to our own problems or inspiration to try something that one of the contestants has show on their entry. This MIX of ideas is what these forums are all about. So I say keep em up, they generate a tremendous amount of creativity and great discussions.
I'd be up for a logging layout. My current mining layout is actually based on a lot of logging influences.
Have fun with your trains
wheeler wrote: I thought it would be fun to enter, but quickly discovered that I do not have what it takes to compete here.I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on,vs the 10,000 (weekly) posts of "gimme a layout idea" (ad nauseum)I still think my layout was a sound concept, I got mired down in the fastrak software, and will NOT return to it. Ever. Unfortunately, my redrawn (over super light blue) fastrak submission looked poor. I did not expect to be lambasted over every detail, but that was due to my naivete' in how this works.You may note that I did not vote at all.I will continue to enjoy the forum, but will shy away from the building contests and their threads.
It's too bad that you feel that way. While I think that a design should work, and it's a limitation of drawing a plan without either software or a template, a person should not be dragged over the coals for an attempt.
For what it's worth, there were some good innovative components to your submission. Too bad you had a problem with the software.
People enjoy different parts of the layout building process otherwise few layouts would never get built. Some people like track work, some like scenery, some like building structures, and some like layout design.
The ones that like layout design, have fun helping people and facing new and greater design challenges. Many times the way they solve a problem becomes part of their layout.
Now you can see this as a waste of bandwidth, but it is very small a because except for the funny mouse pictures, there aren't a lot of graphics, and text is relatively a small bandwidth user.
If you want to conserve bandwidth, go yank the chain of the people who post multiple large pictures on photo fun. Besides, a thread doesn't use any bandwidth if you don't click on it.
vsmith wrote: 1train1 wrote: IMHO ; Contests and challenges are a waste of bandwith - 'someone else's' bandwith. Aren't these forums supposed to be the sharing of info et al ? Not to be cranky about it but isn't that why most forums discourage the - 'what color is your favourite ....?' polls that were trendy for a while. There is alot of perhaps useful information that I have missed or not passed on because I avoid these type of threads. Just a thought - sorry to rain on the parade.Your completely entitled to that opinion and I do respect it, but I have to strongly disagree, and BTW you've contradicted yourself , you said forums are about the sharing of ideas, well isnt that EXACTLY WHAT THESE CONTESTS DO?
Sharing ideas - and competing are TWO different things.
Some people won't share and will purposely not - because it turns into a competition.
1train1 wrote: Sharing ideas - and competing are TWO different things. Some people won't share and will purposely not - because it turns into a competition.
So what do you think about chess, baseball, ping-pong, football, golf, or monopoly? Can't competition be fun?
1train1 wrote: vsmith wrote: 1train1 wrote: IMHO ; Contests and challenges are a waste of bandwith - 'someone else's' bandwith. Aren't these forums supposed to be the sharing of info et al ? Not to be cranky about it but isn't that why most forums discourage the - 'what color is your favourite ....?' polls that were trendy for a while. There is alot of perhaps useful information that I have missed or not passed on because I avoid these type of threads. Just a thought - sorry to rain on the parade.Your completely entitled to that opinion and I do respect it, but I have to strongly disagree, and BTW you've contradicted yourself , you said forums are about the sharing of ideas, well isnt that EXACTLY WHAT THESE CONTESTS DO?Sharing ideas - and competing are TWO different things. Some people won't share and will purposely not - because it turns into a competition.
If you "share" an idea online, dont you automaticly open your self to critisism by any randon replier anyway, or someone posting a "thats good, but this is better" reply, isnt that in itself a form of "mine ideas better" competition? so wheres the difference?
Little tough to consider it "competition" when you dont know what the other entrants have till Chip posts it. Its quit literally a case of "run your idea up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes".
No one really wins ANTHING in these competitions, there just a little creative fun, theres no REAL competition, no prizes, no ribbons, just people showing their ideas and design approaches. I pulled my own entry out of this last go around. I knew it didnt fit the criteria, so I yanked it. No big deal.
Besides those who won't share, wouldn't enter projects like this in the first place, so where's the difference, those who want to share their ideas will willingly participate, those who wont for whatever reasons, will sit it out anyway, in the meantime everyone else whos interested in the process can share in the results.
I guess I'm having a really hard time decerning your POV. I really dont see a difference.
SpaceMouse wrote: 1train1 wrote: Sharing ideas - and competing are TWO different things. Some people won't share and will purposely not - because it turns into a competition.So what do you think about chess, baseball, ping-pong, football, golf, or monopoly? Can't competition be fun?
All of life is competition, even when you're only competing with yourself. (If that wasn't true, nobody would play solitaire and Rubic would never have sold a cube.)
Some people won't share - because they don't want to lose their edge in the competition or because they don't want to admit that they're behind in the competition. (If that hadn't been true all through recorded history the words military secret would be meaningless.)
Good clean fun competition is interesting from the point of view of both the competitors and the spectators (who often learn things that they would have never thought of themselves.) The problem is, too many people only think competition is fun IF THEY WIN. It never occurs to them that they can learn from failing to win.
About learning things - I, personally, would never have thought of a mushroom farm as a source of traffic. Now, I'm thinking of suggesting the idea to the folks who run my 'Three couples and a dog' marginal coal mine. (I have a sister-in-law who makes very good money collecting mushrooms, which are obscenely expensive in Japan.)
I enjoy these layout competitions, even though I'm unlikely to enter one. Since I'm more than a little challenged when it comes to creating and transmitting graphics, I'll be content to hang out on the outskirts, observing and learning.
I already know that I'm not too old to learn. I certainly hope I'm not too stupid to learn.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - good ideas welcome)
Once again I would have to say good contest. Next time I will make sure I read the rules more closely to be sure I am within the specifications of the contest.
To be honest with no prizes, ribbons or special ceremony I have taken the last two contest I have taken part in as a "what is your idea" than a competition. I find that it is nice to have people with different ideas than I do, some I like, some I don't. But that is the great thing about this forum you get many ideas from many different skill levels.
I like the idea of an n-scale contest. That gives those n-scalers a bone that complained about the contest for this one being HO only. Plus that will make me look into those n-scale rules and change my thinking from 1/87th to 1/160th.
Chris
Lancaster, CA
Check out my railroad at: Buffalo and Southwestern
Photos at:Flicker account
YouTube:StellarMRR YouTube account
1train1, These contest are fun for allot of people, some do enter, and allot of people share their thoughts and Ideas in this type of contest. Its a good learning curve so to speak if you really think about it.
If you really stop and think about it, someone may or could build a small layout or section from the drawings and ideas, so many people profit from this type of contest. Stick around and watch this thread, their are plenty of people who are very talented in designing, and in the end we all learn something.
Mmm - yes and no.
I can see that some people maybe would shy away from participating in a contest like situation that would expose their idea to being judged and critiqued by others. Like the person who posted one of the layouts in the 2x8, and then felt that his idea had been "dragged through hot coals" or some such thing, after it had been pointed out that his design just would not be possible to build within the available footprint.
But at Tomikawa points out, this can happen with any post, not just posts in contest threads.
Whenever I share something on a public board, I open myself up to having someone pointing out that my idea is somewhat less brilliant that I thought.
Has happened to me a _lot_ down through the years. Bad for my self esteem, good for my ability to learn from my mistakes before they get to the stage when it is really expensive to rip them out and fix them :-)
At the same time I can agree with you that the voting part is mostly wasted time.
I fundamentally do not care that much which layout is voted best - what I mostly care about is seeing what solutions other people have come up with to model a smallish town in 2x8 feet in H0 scale.
By all means - my ears are not this pointy - I am human enough that it of course makes me happy that quite a few people liked my design - but I get my kicks more from having people whose opinion I respect comment on my layout than I do from having people voting for it.
I see the voting process more as the necessary cost to keep the layouts in focus long enough to have people comment on them than as a goal in itself.
I also enjoy discussing why something was designed the way it was.
During the contest phase I read or took part in interesting (at least for me) side discussions about at least five or six layouts:
- Butler, Indiana - Port Barber - Komatsu Line - Corydon I started a separate thread about the extremely interesting prototype the Corydon layout was based on, and learned a lot about this shortline.- I liked (and commented on) a late entry that was posted in a separate thread - calplanner's Citrus Branch
- And of course - I had interesting discussions with Old Dog (and several others) about various aspects of the Fergus layout - like foreground industries and elbow room.
We didn't agree on whether the Fergus layout had too many foreground structures, but it was useful to review the concept of elbow room, and be re-reminded that one way of compensating for access problems would be to lower the layout so you look more down instead of in on it, another to push foreground structures out to the left and right foreground (like in calplanner's layout above and in several other designs I have made of other prototypes - Hiawatha Avenue and Progressive rail in 7x2 feet), a third by not actually modelling the aisle side industries, just the tracks leading to them.
The last point about not modelling aisle side industries carried over to another thread exPalaceDog posted on his rules of the thumb for picking industries for a layout and how to model them.
A non-exhaustive handful things I feel learned (or was reminded of) from this last contest, in no particular order
There must be piles of stuff I haven't mentioned. But there is stuff to be learned from these contests - if you approach them as a way to generate something that can be discussed, rather than approach them as a "who will win" race.
Grin, Stein
saronaterry wrote: Nope. Speaking as a voter, I'd pass and just look at the entries.Way too complicated for this MRR.I quit reading the voting explaination half-way thru.Terry
WOW! You actually made it 1/2 way through that?? That's further than I did!
I actually got some good ideas from this last contest, so I guess it does have more merit than just being a competition.(this comes from a person that first thought they were a waste of band width also.)
loathar wrote: saronaterry wrote: Nope. Speaking as a voter, I'd pass and just look at the entries.Way too complicated for this MRR.I quit reading the voting explaination half-way thru.TerryWOW! You actually made it 1/2 way through that?? That's further than I did!
Let's try again, hopefully the Old Dog has provided a better description this time.
The posters simple copy and "fill in" the appropriate "form"
The exact form of the three posts will need to be fought out later.
To enter the contest or rate a layout a poster would;
I have hestiated to critique.. I try to stick to positive comments about the ones I vote on.
Whatever you do, as a voter I would keep the format simple. The way it worked the last two was about as much complication as I can handle.
My only beef with the n-track module idea is we just did a sort of modular thing. I think it would be interesting to see what people can do with a classic 4x8. Not 4x8 in shape (although that would be fine).. but 32 square feet that could be cookie cuttered out of a 4x8 board.
wheeler wrote: I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on, ....I still think my layout was a sound concept,
....I still think my layout was a sound concept,
ChrisNH wrote:My only beef with the n-track module idea is we just did a sort of modular thing. I think it would be interesting to see what people can do with a classic 4x8. Not 4x8 in shape (although that would be fine).. but 32 square feet that could be cookie cuttered out of a 4x8 board.
Actually, I was thinking of doing a more of a simulated N-trak club. We would divide into groups of 4, each group coming up with a theme and then working together to come up with a portable 12 x 12 layout.
As for the next project, the Old Dog would suggest something on the lines of the book shelf N-Scale layout article published by MR in Jan and Feb of 1977. The straight modules were 7.5" by 48", the corner modules were 32" by 32". Loop modules, 24" by 48" were described.
The concept was that the layout would be mounted fairly high on the walls like a book shelf to allow the room to be used for other functions.
Texas Zepher wrote: wheeler wrote: I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on, ....I still think my layout was a sound concept, Which layout was yours?
His layout was Butler, Indiana - pencil drawn layout that was rather optimistic about how much you can fit into 2x8 feet.
Stein
steinjr wrote: Texas Zepher wrote: wheeler wrote: I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on, ....I still think my layout was a sound concept, Which layout was yours? His layout was Butler, Indiana - pencil drawn layout that was rather optimistic about how much you can fit into 2x8 feet.
Then again it also suffered from the presentation aspect like I believe mine did. The "colorful" representations got higher marks then the black & white ones. I sort of noticed this in the prior constests as well. Concept does not necessarily win over a good looking picture of a lesser concept.
Texas Zepher wrote: The "colorful" representations got higher marks then the black & white ones. I sort of noticed this in the prior constests as well. Concept does not necessarily win over a good looking picture of a lesser concept.
I noticed this as well and I attempted to compensate. Unfortunately I failed miserably because I could not figure out my paint program. What I ended up with was not very good and I wasted a lot of time that could have gone toward improving my layout--which by the time of the end of the contest, I had figured could use some tweaking.
Presentation goes for the non-discerning vote.
Texas Zepher wrote: steinjr wrote: Texas Zepher wrote: wheeler wrote: I had hoped to "Throw out" an idea for a layout someone might see, and think (it) would be fun to build, and possibly study up on, ....I still think my layout was a sound concept, Which layout was yours? His layout was Butler, Indiana - pencil drawn layout that was rather optimistic about how much you can fit into 2x8 feet. Ah yes, It was a sound concept. Just not in the available space.
Ah yes, It was a sound concept. Just not in the available space.
Somehow, those 12" radius curved sidings on both sides of the elevator, double high speed mainlines with small radius S-curves where passenger cars would be likely to derail and tight interchange with room for one car just didn't work for me.
Even if it had been stretched out over 3x12 feet or whatever it would have taken to fit all the components in the sketch.
Texas Zepher wrote: Then again it also suffered from the presentation aspect like I believe mine did. The "colorful" representations got higher marks then the black & white ones. I sort of noticed this in the prior constests as well. Concept does not necessarily win over a good looking picture of a lesser concept.
Sorry, but I am not so sure about that. Look at the two layouts that got most points - Fergus and Port Butler.
Not all that colorful. Fergus has a couple of green RR cars - rest of drawing is black white plus grey for roads. Butler is pretty monochrome too - mostly red on grey background, with some yellow numbers here and there.
The most colorful layouts were Corydon, Greenbank, Landenberg and Hockesin. Landenburg ended up in third spot, with Corydon sixth, Hockesin and Greenbank both scored lower than Arkansas Valley.
Presentation clearly matters. But it is not quite as decissive as you seem to think.
Komatsu got almost twice as many votes as Arkansas Valley, finishing 4th, just a few votes behind Landenberg.
It would be very hard to make a plainer drawing than the illustration for Komatsu. No trace of color. Stark black and white.
I think you will need to dig a little deeper than color to figure out why your layout came in at 8th place this time.
For me, the main reason for not voting for Arkansas Valley (instead of one of the layouts I voted for - Landenberg, Komatsu and Fergus) is that Arkansas Valley just didn't have anything special. Nothing wrong with Arkansas Valley, but nothing that made me go "hmmmm!" either.
Sorry.