My layout has 125 tortoise powered DCC friendly modified Shinohara turnouts. At one time I had 22 Central Valley turnouts installed. My layout focuses on a big yard, the east end of which has it's ladder on an approxiametely 3 degree curve to the right and yard tracks (11) branching off the left. I was led to beleive that Central Valley (CV) components could accomodate this configuration. After repeatedly rebuilding them to the point that very little was left other than the tie strips and frogs I have given up, ripped them completely out and haidlaid the whole works following Tony Koester article in MR 84. I am hooked on handlaid track. The problem with CV turnouts is that the points are made of some kind of soft metal, the throwbar is a plastic peice that pops out sporadically and the frog cannot be built up again if you file to much away. I still have a few left and in straightforward applications they seem OK. I do not think there is any commercial turnout that you can pull out of the box and get top line performance from. For me top line is slow speed steam switching.
Jon Bratt
Jeff & Chuck, you have both made good points. In fact, ALL of the respondants have made good points. This has been a good thread. I will continue to remain open minded as I pit handlaying vs store-bought for my hidden staging turnouts.
Harvey
A couple of comments on hand-built turnouts, to possibly clarify some of your misgivings.
1. "Tedious troubleshooting on hands and knees under the layout," simply doesn't happen. Those two curved yard throats (hidden staging trackage) I described are laid on two removable sub-frames. When one requires troubleshooting all I have to do is remove four nuts and carry the whole works to the bench. Switch machine failed? Flip the subframe over and work from the top down, with all electrical connections made at clearly labeled stud-and-nut terminals.
2. "Fast track jigs..." Don't use 'em. Never have. I lay my track to drawn centerlines, straight, curved or transition. Each one is fabricated in place, from plain-jane rail. My weapon of choice is a large flat file, and I usually work against a chunk of 2 x 4 clamped to a convenient spot on my benchwork. Except for some #5 turnouts on tangent track, I have no idea what frog number I have assembled. As long as wheels roll through smoothly, what difference does it make? As for tool costs, I'm sure that replacing my long-nose pliers, diagonal cutters and flat file would leave me with change from a $20 bill, and you can't lay any track without them. Likewise, track gauges are necessary even if all of your track comes out of a box. Exotic materials? Sheet balsa for ties, and small experiment boards (perforated PC board) which, sliced up, each provided me with two dozen throwbars. My rail is mostly salvaged from damaged flex track (deeply discounted at a LHS.) Believe it or not, the spikes are the most expensive 'not used for flex track' products.
3. Time. Granted I have been doing this for a while, so I don't make many false moves. For an ordinary turnout, once the site is prepped (tie end lines drawn on the cardstock that acts as a base over my foam roadbed) I can caulk down all my (pre-cut) ties in a matter of a few minutes, lay the stock rails in seconds (one permanent, one temporarily tacked,) shape the frog points and position them in less than 5 minutes, shape and position the wing rails as quickly and solder the frog about twenty minutes in from a standing start - including a power drop for the live frog. Shaping the points, soldering them to their pivot pins (flathead nails in drilled holes clear down to the plywood subgrade) and attaching them to the throwbar (with shaped wire links) will take about a half hour (my points are undercut, and ride up on the bases of un-notched stock rails.) Add guard rails (and stock rail drops) and in an hour the turnout is mechanically complete and ready for electrical hookup. Detail spiking, everything to exact gauge, might take up to thirty more minutes - about the same time it takes me to install and tweak a turnout actuator. Electrical connections and first op test - 150 minutes from a standing start to fully operational and ready for service.
As a bonus, the specific turnout I need is never out of stock!
I'm not one to , and I'm almost terminally lazy. If rolling my own wasn't simple and straightforward I would use commercial products and accept the cost and limitations. Unfortunately, the limitations would make building to my dream design impossible.
Just my based on my personal experience. Feel free to disagree.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
There is no question that the jigs are expensive, the break even point for a single jig, at least in n-scale is probably around 30 turnouts, I'll run some numbers later to see if that's right. There is certainly no payback for buying a jig for just a few of one type. I bought 2 jigs, a #5 for most trackwork in my yards, and a #8 double crossover jig (which can be used to make single turnouts, as well) for the mainline. I hope taht the experience I gain from buiding the 70 or 80 switches that way will help me in building my one doubleslip. If I decide I need any other special trackwork I plan to lay it without jigs.
EDIT:
This isn't to say that the jigs are for everyone. It's just describing how I dealth with the cost. So far, about 15 turnouts in (including the double crossover) I'm content.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Guy,
You did a fine job of summing up my original question: what to do for hidden turnouts. However, that said, I also enjoyed all of the discussions about the look, reliability and "ease" of handlaying turnouts. So much so that I will likely try a little handlaying of my own; at least on some up-front trackage. But one benefit no one mentioned about installing store-bought turnouts in hidden staging yards is that you aren't forced to do tedious turnout troubleshooting and repairs while on your knees under your layout. If you have a problem turnout, just pull the bad one out and replace it entirely with another one. You can't do that with handlaid turnouts.
But I can't understand the claims that building a Fasttrack turnout is cheaper than store-bought. I looked up the Fasttracks website and was shocked to find that ONE jig costs about $170 (in HO.) Don't get me wrong, the jig appears to be well crafted and will likely last a lifetime of tracklaying but that's $170 for EACH type and size of turnout. Granted, each jig will build both right and left hand turnouts but while one #6 turnout jig will probably build hundreds of #6 right and left turnouts, how many of us have layouts that could get by with just the one frog angle? If you plan on #8 and #10 turnouts on your mainline. that's an additional $340. And if your yard requires three-ways, slips, wyes, curved turnouts, etc with two, three and four frog angles in each type (and those curved turnouts would require a separate jig for each radius combination!), well all of those jigs could easily add up to several thousands of dollars PLUS the rail, printed circuit board ties, etc. WOW! And of those who hailed that the primary benefit of handlaying is that you aren't limited to whatever sizes and shapes of pre-built turnouts that are offered, then I doubt that they could get by with just one, two or even six turnout jigs for their layouts. I know I couldn't.
I can see where being a club member might benefit here. Each member could buy one type/size and they could all then pool their turnout jigs, thereby eventually having one of every size and type available to the membership. But for an individual living far from the closest club, Peco is starting to look pretty good. :-)
Harvey,
I would re-design the staging area so that there are no buried turnouts or at least so the turnouts are on the edge of an access area and are somewhat reachable. While hand laid and fast tracks turnouts are very good, even these turnouts may eventually need maintenance (points coming unsoldered from the throw bar, for example) and having them even marginally accessible will help out when the time comes.
IMHO, No doubt that hand laid switches (or fast tracks jig produced) are the best in terms of reliability. However, other posters are somewhat minimizing the time it takes to hand lay switches, even when using the fast tracks jigs. The jigs produce excellent turnouts but do require a certain amount of skill and patience. I have scratch built some turnouts (and other track work) and would definitely buy a fast tracks jig if I were starting to lay track again on my layout, but I would do so with a clear understanding of what is involved in regards to time spent in this area.
I feel that hand laying where no one will see it is overkill. There are so many things to do when building a layout that I think I would rather spend time on other aspects of modeling. I think that one can get excellent reliability without having to hand lay, especiailly if looks aren't a factor. Even hand laying guru Tony Koester has Peco code 100 Turnouts and Atlas flex in his staging.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
You'll have to include me in the Fast Tracks camp and also in the group with limited skills and bad eyes. I bought a #6 slip switch fixture and proceeded to make my first switch which wasn't great and never used but was a good learning experience. That lead to more slips and then some standard turnouts using thier point and frog helper and some Twist Ties which allow you to curve the turnout if need be. They work perfectly.
Wayne.
Theres alot of info here and i guess i cant say to much thats already been said!
But heres my take on it.
The first layout i built was U.K practice and rolling stock. All my turnouts were hand laid without jigs, built by myself. There was around 20 of them including a diamond crossing and curved turnouts. After initial commisioning and fine tuning, they were 100% reliable.
When i built my new U.S based H0 layout i used Peco code 83 everywhere.
I done this for a couple of reasons. 1, it was readily available. 2, it looked prety good and alot better than their U.K based Streamline junk! and 3, i couldnt face building the dam things again by hand
My new layout has now been running for about 2 years and i have 1 cross over using #8's that is hidden. The only thing i done to these turnouts was get rid of the sharp edge of rail where the switch rails 'hinges' on the fixed frog rail as i found some flanges would pick it and derail. Apart from this minor fault, i find them 100% reliable and using electro frog with wired frog via Tortoise, they are perfect for DCC.
If i had my time over again i would maybe use Fasttracks but only cause they look alot better than commercial stuff. I am infact considering swapping out some of the Peco's in the scenic areas for these for the above reason but nothing else.
fulton wrote:Back to the original question (that is, which commercial turnout is most reliable), it seems nobody has mentioned Walther/Shinohara turnouts. Are they reliable enough to use in hidden locations? If you're using code 83 track where you can see it, is there any reason not to use it where you can't see it?
Yes, back to the original question. They work fine for me. Code 100 is "more bullet proof" but not by a lot in my experience. The biggest drawbacks are the price and sometimes availability.
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
selector wrote:Joe-Daddy does indeed raise good questions, but I must say that they are somewhat laden as values statements. What is tedium? Is it the fine work required of nicely rendered ballast? How about wiring...I'll bet there is more than one respondant here who would say that wiring is not his/her fave.
Joe-Daddy does indeed raise good questions, but I must say that they are somewhat laden as values statements. What is tedium? Is it the fine work required of nicely rendered ballast? How about wiring...I'll bet there is more than one respondant here who would say that wiring is not his/her fave.
Crandall,
Personally I don't equate the effort, difficulty and precision (tedium by my definition) required to build an acceptable turnout with the effort, difficulty and precision required ballast track or do any kind of wiring. I've built 6 turnouts and so far, I don't have the knack down. Others certainly may find it easier and more straight forward.
From my experience it is much harder than advocates would lead us to believe. Not impossible, not unworthy of the time, mind you, but I was prepared for it, meaning I did not believe the hype about how trivial it is to do.
selector wrote: Who among us don't want things to happen quickly, but at the same time, who of us don't soon learn of the associated hazards to reliability, smooth running, consistent electrical contact, realism, and all the other characteristics of a good layout? Our hobby takes time, some things more, some less. It is purely subjective as to what constitutes a sufficient, necessary, or extraordinary amount of time to achieve results.
Who among us don't want things to happen quickly, but at the same time, who of us don't soon learn of the associated hazards to reliability, smooth running, consistent electrical contact, realism, and all the other characteristics of a good layout? Our hobby takes time, some things more, some less. It is purely subjective as to what constitutes a sufficient, necessary, or extraordinary amount of time to achieve results.
With respect, you are rationalizing why the effort and time is worth while. I have no argument with that, but one needs to know that it may be an issue. IF one is building a new layout and needs 20 or so turnouts to be able to be minimally operational, it is going to crank a few months into the time line if their available time is as precious as some folks are. That is considerably different from a trip to the hobby shop.
selector wrote: Skills are what this hobby requires in order to experience the best that it has to offer, although in appropriate measure. Fast Tracks turnouts come together quickly once the learning curve is done...for all of us. For decidely unskilled Crandell, for example, it was at the end of the third turnout, about 3 hours' worth.
If you mastered building Fast Track turnouts in 3 hours time, I'm impressed but must point a bony finger of accusation toward your statement about being unskilled.
selector wrote: How much time are superior turnouts worth? Who decides?
How much time are superior turnouts worth? Who decides?
I spent over $400 on kits so I can learn to build turnouts. I've invested about 12 hours into the learning process and am still learning basic stuff. I think the output is worth the effort, I am just trying to not trivialize or marginalize the costs, effort of time required. Like the bacon for breakfast, I am committed to them nor would I consider asking for my money back.
As is typical with Mr. Selector, an excellent discussion, thank you Crandall for your response!
Joe
Rats!
I just sent a big reply to the bit bucket......
So, I'll summarize.....
In general, handlaid turnouts look and work better than commercial.
For one (N-scale) turnout, materials cost is $2.75. The jigs (including the point filing tool) about $160.
It takes time, but I can knock out 2 or 3 in a week, when I need them, and still have time to keep everything else moving, at least a bit. Since I know I will take more than a year to build this thing, it isn't a showstopper.
I'll be building almost 80 turnouts, so it will cost me about $540 for them all, at least $100 less than Atlas code 55. (I have two different jigs, so I double the jig cost.)
In addition, I'll have the confidence to build a turnout without a jig, if the need arises. And to build my 'because I can' double-slip.
Pics my son took of the double crossover:
Joe-Daddy left out one critical point that could easily be a deal-maker for handlaid specialwork.
Do you like to have extra money available for other things, or would you rather spend it on store-boughten specialwork?
The difference between buying a single Atlas turnout and the cost of 'makin's' for the same thing hand-laid isn't much - just about enough for a snack at McBurgers. Once you've developed the skills, laying a hand-laid turnout takes less time than digesting that snack.
As trackwork gets more complex and intricate, the commercial product side begins to go cosmic. Hand-laying a double slip switch costs less than twice as much as a single hand-laid turnout. The difference between that and a decent commercial product will pay for a steak dinner.
So, how about a yard throat with two three-way switches and a couple of 'standard' turnouts, all built on a sweeping curve. How about another one, slightly different configuration (one more 'standard' turnout, wider radius curves) just across the thoroughfare track. Toss in a passenger station/engine change point with four double slips and several 'standard' turnouts at each end, plus a small classification yard, locomotive ready tracks.... At this point, the price differential gets into the brass locomotive range.
PLUS! All of that specialwork will be in gauge, mechanically and electrically bulletproof and ready to provide decades of satisfactory operation.
(Decades? I'm operating over hand-laid track that has been giving me trouble-free service since I built it - in 1980.)
I think selector hit on a good point. Once you have a bit of experience with the jigs, I think you'll be able to build turnouts without them, as you'll understand how they go together. I have not built it yet, but my plan calls for a single double-slip switch. I have every intention of handlaying it, using the experience I've gained from using the jigs. I could easily design it out, but it is going to look cool, and I'm going to prove I can do it!
Skills are what this hobby requires in order to experience the best that it has to offer, although in appropriate measure. Fast Tracks turnouts come together quickly once the learning curve is done...for all of us. For decidely unskilled Crandell, for example, it was at the end of the third turnout, about 3 hours' worth. How much time are superior turnouts worth? Who decides?
I consider an Opti-visor mandatory, as I now do bifocals. It's life.
I only needed six of one kind of turnout, and two of the second. What I got was the ability to scratch any turnout I would subsequently need, plus the left-over jigs to build them Fast Tracks' way in any future numbers needed. What price skill?
As for the last question, there is a similar price with all learning and development. You discard the old and acquire the new, one turnout at a time. The rest can be given to needy friends, here or elsewhere, or sold on ebay.
Those questions are germane, and I heartily commend all modellers to them. Ability costs, but so do things to be purchased, things made by other people.
joe-daddy wrote: Jake1210 wrote: So I'm assuming that I should go with my gut and buy myself some Fast Tracks jigs?Never with your gut, but use your head. Do you like to do tedious repetive work? Are you in a hurry to get your track work done?Do you consider yourself skilled or seriously want to be skilled with files, soldering and detailed work? Can you see well, or are you comfortable with an optivisor? Do you have more than a dozen turnouts you need to make?Are you willing to scrap, give away, or take a serious loss on the turnouts you already have?Answering more than one of those as a no and you might want to rethink hand laying and might want to consider taking a pass on the Fast Tracks.Just my 2 cents!Joe
Jake1210 wrote: So I'm assuming that I should go with my gut and buy myself some Fast Tracks jigs?
So I'm assuming that I should go with my gut and buy myself some Fast Tracks jigs?
Never with your gut, but use your head.
Answering more than one of those as a no and you might want to rethink hand laying and might want to consider taking a pass on the Fast Tracks.
Just my 2 cents!
-Jake
Joe you make some good points, but....
1. Whether you consider building turnouts tedious is a pretty personal opinion.
2. There's no question it takes some time, but the results are pretty dramatic.
3. The skill level required is not that great, compared to other things that a model railroader also does. The set of tools makes the filing a breeze, the soldering straightforward. The instructions and videos make it pretty doable. Of course, like anything else, you get better with experience.
4. For turnouts (and I'm in N scale) it isn't really that bad, though I do find it easier with the opivisor. My double crossover was a bit tougher, there is a lot of stuff in close proximity.
5. This one I can see. At that point you might choose between handlaying without a jig, or commercial..
6. One benefit of a new layout, not much to scrap!
Jake1210 wrote:So I'm assuming that I should go with my gut and buy myself some Fast Tracks jigs?
SpaceMouse wrote:I'm going with Fast Tracks, much for the same reason that Chuck went with handlaid. Unlike the others, the ones you make are in guage and 100% relaible.
If anyone has experience with the Central Valley turnouts, I'd sure be interested in hearing about them. I'm getting back into model railroading and have bought sevral of these kits. I handlaid a turnout once using the Tony Koester atricle and it worked well. But I can't help but feel that CV track is the way to go.
Any opinions?
thebikeroom wrote:Peco.A bit more $$ than Atlas, but no motor or even ground throw needed to hold the turnout rails in proper position.I find them much more solidly built and as a result more durable in the long run than the Atlas ones. Yet they match perfectly with Atlas C100 track. K
Peco.
A bit more $$ than Atlas, but no motor or even ground throw needed to hold the turnout rails in proper position.
I find them much more solidly built and as a result more durable in the long run than the Atlas ones. Yet they match perfectly with Atlas C100 track.
K
I've tried running Peco code 83 and found them to be nothing but problems. 1/2 the problem was the turnout itself and the other half was I did not know that Code 83 Peco turnouts are not compatible with Atlas Flex Track (code 83).
turnouts themselves are pretty, but fragile compared to Atlas, meaning they break easily. I've managed to cause serious damage to several. The easiest way to destroy them is to use a dremel cut off tool to shorten the turnout motor rod while the motor is mounted to the turnout. You WILL ruin the tie rod and the cute little spring that everyone seems so in love with.
I've got 15 #5's with turnout motors and LED postion switches, I'd take $20 a piece for them.
My current direction is FastTracks, and have made 6 turnouts so far. There is a big learning curve to making the turnouts, my first was about 3 hours, I'm down to about an hour and still not sure I have some of the techniques now pat. All 6 are beautiful to look at and about half of them are now reliable to run on. I'll stay with it, because to my knowledge, the best turnout one can have with the 500 feet of Atlas flex I have is either an Atlas turnout or a FastTracks that has been specially ordered to use Atlas Rail. Not sorry I spent the money on the jigs, I'm just not competent with them so far!
My 2 cents,
Rabbit wrote:Folks,I appreciate your inputs but I'm not so sure about handlaying my own track. While I've been reading all of Model Railroader's how-to-handlay articles for 45 years now and always thought I would do just that on my BIG layout, reality is that my 53 year old eyes would be permanently cross-eyed if I try to do that. I may still try my hand at handlaying on some upfront tracks but I find it hard to believe that it's the only way to go on my hidden staging tracks. Nonetheless, I remain open minded...What's FastTrack?Harvey
Folks,
I appreciate your inputs but I'm not so sure about handlaying my own track. While I've been reading all of Model Railroader's how-to-handlay articles for 45 years now and always thought I would do just that on my BIG layout, reality is that my 53 year old eyes would be permanently cross-eyed if I try to do that. I may still try my hand at handlaying on some upfront tracks but I find it hard to believe that it's the only way to go on my hidden staging tracks. Nonetheless, I remain open minded...
What's FastTrack?
I understand your fears. When I first started hand-laying in 1976 (HO, code 70), the most difficult model railroading task I'd done up to that point was building a detailed Silver Streak plastic reefer. Fast Tracks jigs didn't exist; I was armed with the basic tools and Jack Work's article in April 1963 Model Railroader on building turnouts.
As long as you have the patience to refasten the rail (solder or spike) a couple of times if necessary to get the gauge spot on, you can hand-lay reliable track. As Chuck states, your first attempts may not be cosmetic masterpieces (then again, they might be depending on your skill), they will be more derailment-free than commercial turnouts just because you took the time to get the rail locations spot on.
Lay a siding or spur to get the feel of your chosen method of fastening rail down and using track gauges. Then, believe it or not, you are ready for your first turnout.
For turnouts, the Fast Tracks jigs hold your hand in fabricating a nearly goof-proof turnout. The drawback of the jigs is that they don't work for laying custom turnout sizes and curves to fit your particular space.
My chosen methods are gluing redwood (no stain required to match my prototype) or pre-stained basswood ties to Homasote, ballasting at the same time ties are laid, sanding tie tops level, restaining as needed, and spiking down painted and pre-curved rail with feeders pre-attached. There are many variations of methods; this is what worked for me.
I'm now the same age as you (needing glasses), but I no longer have any fear of whipping out the needle nose pliers and materials and laying a few feet of track by hand, whether it be for a display case, diorama, or part of a layout.
yours in handlaid track
Fred W
Howdy, Harvey,
I'll admit I came on pretty strong, but absolutely bulletproof trackwork is something I'm inclined to get passionate about. It's especially critical in staging, where easy access to correct minor bobbles might involve moving a (styrofoam) mountain. (In my case, it will involve unscrewing fascia panels from their support frames.)
If you're ever going to hand-lay anything, even a few feet of perfectly tangent track, the best place to practice is where your COSMETIC blunders won't show. Nobody starts laying perfect track. Singed ties and the occasional ugly blob of solder are just about certain to happen as you attack the learning curve. It's like swimming - people are afraid of being less than Olympic performers, so they hesitate to start. Once you jump in, you quickly learn that it's a lot easier than you thought it would be.
For turnouts in hidden staging it's perfectly permissable to substitute baulks of rough-cut sheet balsa for finely-scaled ties. After all, who's likely to pick up the mountain or dismantle your fascia to check how you built your turnouts?
The only absolute requirement is that the rails must be the appropriate distance apart and the flangeways must adhere to standard. I hand-lay with my NMRA gauge in one hand and a pair of three-point track gauges riding the rails.
Rabbit wrote: Folks,I appreciate your inputs but I'm not so sure about handlaying my own track. While I've been reading all of Model Railroader's how-to-handlay articles for 45 years now and always thought I would do just that on my BIG layout, reality is that my 53 year old eyes would be permanently cross-eyed if I try to do that. I may still try my hand at handlaying on some upfront tracks but I find it hard to believe that it's the only way to go on my hidden staging tracks. Nonetheless, I remain open minded...What's FastTrack?Harvey
With the jigs ( http://www.haindlaidtrack.com ) it is way easier than you would think. Still takes time, no way around that. The jigs are expensive, but once you go over ten or fiftenn turnouts you are saving money. I'll be using them everywhere, including my 'hidden in plain sight' staging, just because I've got the jigs, and can build them cheap. The ones in staging will probably not have all the ties, that's the real time consuming part, and it's jsut cosmietic.
There are some videos on the site, have a look at them. I do them in N, if you are in HO I think they'ed be a snap. (I do use an optivisor).
jktrains wrote:I second the motion for handlaid FastTrack turnouts. Far smoother and superior to and commercially made turnout, when done correctly.
And looks better, though that's not much of an issue in staging!