This is bound to create some lively "discussion" but what brand of HO turnouts would you choose for hidden staging tracks? Of course, since they will be hidden, they need not be perfectly scale. They just have to work reliably, year after year, with minimal maintenance.
I'm thinking good-ol Atlas Mark III with maybe a curved Peco or two if my still-under-development track plan (an around-the-walls 20 x 30 plan) requires them. Probably Code 100 Atlas flextrack in the hidden areas & 36"R curves. And to increase the reliability factor, I plan to use the highest number frogs that I can. Ruling equipment will be steam locos up to 2-8-8-2 and 80ft passenger cars. Remember, this question is in regards to hidden/marginally-accessible trackage only.
I did a search on this subject but got a lot of "clutter" in return.
Thanks for your inputs,
Harvey Hartman
Houston, TX
In my case, the only acceptable choice (for any application, not just hidden staging) is:
Hand laid, rails shaped with a 10" mill file, laid on wood ties with real spikes and soldered with a 325-watt Weller hand cannon.
That's what I'm using, and I challenge anyone to match my trackwork for reliability with anything they can buy in a package from an E-tailer or LHS. Not only that; I can set up some really strange track geometry (like yard throats on sweeping curves) that simply can't be duplicated with commercial shake-the-box products.
As for Atlas - thanks to the plastic frogs, they are totally useless to me. Some of my most-used rolling stock only picks up propulsion power from one short-wheelbase truck on each side, and the pickup doesn't span the plastic. Switching at realistic slow speed results in a full emergency stop at every turnout.
Rolling your own turnouts isn't difficult. Even this arthritic old coot can do it.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - on hand-laid specialwork)
Peco.
A bit more $$ than Atlas, but no motor or even ground throw needed to hold the turnout rails in proper position.
I find them much more solidly built and as a result more durable in the long run than the Atlas ones. Yet they match perfectly with Atlas C100 track.
K
Kato
Otherwise, I prefer Peco.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
John
Chuck and Chip have the right answer for the ultimate in rolling reliability. Another advantage to rolling your own besides custom geometry and reliablility is that the wiring is your choice, not the manufacturer's. If you need live frogs to avoid stalls and flickering lights, your make your frogs live. If you want to avoid shorts from the backs of wheels at the points shutting down your DCC, you wire the points to the adjoining stock rails from the get go.
Final advantages to rolling your own are cost and appearance. Cost of materials is $3-$4 at most. And no ugly black plastic frogs or guardrails. Just smooth-riding metal frogs with on-spec flangeways that prevent wheel drop and frog picking, and look much more like the prototype to boot.
yours in handlaid track
Fred W
jktrains wrote:I second the motion for handlaid FastTrack turnouts. Far smoother and superior to and commercially made turnout, when done correctly.
And looks better, though that's not much of an issue in staging!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Folks,
I appreciate your inputs but I'm not so sure about handlaying my own track. While I've been reading all of Model Railroader's how-to-handlay articles for 45 years now and always thought I would do just that on my BIG layout, reality is that my 53 year old eyes would be permanently cross-eyed if I try to do that. I may still try my hand at handlaying on some upfront tracks but I find it hard to believe that it's the only way to go on my hidden staging tracks. Nonetheless, I remain open minded...
What's FastTrack?
Harvey
Rabbit wrote: Folks,I appreciate your inputs but I'm not so sure about handlaying my own track. While I've been reading all of Model Railroader's how-to-handlay articles for 45 years now and always thought I would do just that on my BIG layout, reality is that my 53 year old eyes would be permanently cross-eyed if I try to do that. I may still try my hand at handlaying on some upfront tracks but I find it hard to believe that it's the only way to go on my hidden staging tracks. Nonetheless, I remain open minded...What's FastTrack?Harvey
With the jigs ( http://www.haindlaidtrack.com ) it is way easier than you would think. Still takes time, no way around that. The jigs are expensive, but once you go over ten or fiftenn turnouts you are saving money. I'll be using them everywhere, including my 'hidden in plain sight' staging, just because I've got the jigs, and can build them cheap. The ones in staging will probably not have all the ties, that's the real time consuming part, and it's jsut cosmietic.
There are some videos on the site, have a look at them. I do them in N, if you are in HO I think they'ed be a snap. (I do use an optivisor).
Howdy, Harvey,
I'll admit I came on pretty strong, but absolutely bulletproof trackwork is something I'm inclined to get passionate about. It's especially critical in staging, where easy access to correct minor bobbles might involve moving a (styrofoam) mountain. (In my case, it will involve unscrewing fascia panels from their support frames.)
If you're ever going to hand-lay anything, even a few feet of perfectly tangent track, the best place to practice is where your COSMETIC blunders won't show. Nobody starts laying perfect track. Singed ties and the occasional ugly blob of solder are just about certain to happen as you attack the learning curve. It's like swimming - people are afraid of being less than Olympic performers, so they hesitate to start. Once you jump in, you quickly learn that it's a lot easier than you thought it would be.
For turnouts in hidden staging it's perfectly permissable to substitute baulks of rough-cut sheet balsa for finely-scaled ties. After all, who's likely to pick up the mountain or dismantle your fascia to check how you built your turnouts?
The only absolute requirement is that the rails must be the appropriate distance apart and the flangeways must adhere to standard. I hand-lay with my NMRA gauge in one hand and a pair of three-point track gauges riding the rails.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Rabbit wrote:Folks,I appreciate your inputs but I'm not so sure about handlaying my own track. While I've been reading all of Model Railroader's how-to-handlay articles for 45 years now and always thought I would do just that on my BIG layout, reality is that my 53 year old eyes would be permanently cross-eyed if I try to do that. I may still try my hand at handlaying on some upfront tracks but I find it hard to believe that it's the only way to go on my hidden staging tracks. Nonetheless, I remain open minded...What's FastTrack?Harvey
I understand your fears. When I first started hand-laying in 1976 (HO, code 70), the most difficult model railroading task I'd done up to that point was building a detailed Silver Streak plastic reefer. Fast Tracks jigs didn't exist; I was armed with the basic tools and Jack Work's article in April 1963 Model Railroader on building turnouts.
As long as you have the patience to refasten the rail (solder or spike) a couple of times if necessary to get the gauge spot on, you can hand-lay reliable track. As Chuck states, your first attempts may not be cosmetic masterpieces (then again, they might be depending on your skill), they will be more derailment-free than commercial turnouts just because you took the time to get the rail locations spot on.
Lay a siding or spur to get the feel of your chosen method of fastening rail down and using track gauges. Then, believe it or not, you are ready for your first turnout.
For turnouts, the Fast Tracks jigs hold your hand in fabricating a nearly goof-proof turnout. The drawback of the jigs is that they don't work for laying custom turnout sizes and curves to fit your particular space.
My chosen methods are gluing redwood (no stain required to match my prototype) or pre-stained basswood ties to Homasote, ballasting at the same time ties are laid, sanding tie tops level, restaining as needed, and spiking down painted and pre-curved rail with feeders pre-attached. There are many variations of methods; this is what worked for me.
I'm now the same age as you (needing glasses), but I no longer have any fear of whipping out the needle nose pliers and materials and laying a few feet of track by hand, whether it be for a display case, diorama, or part of a layout.
thebikeroom wrote:Peco.A bit more $$ than Atlas, but no motor or even ground throw needed to hold the turnout rails in proper position.I find them much more solidly built and as a result more durable in the long run than the Atlas ones. Yet they match perfectly with Atlas C100 track. K
I've tried running Peco code 83 and found them to be nothing but problems. 1/2 the problem was the turnout itself and the other half was I did not know that Code 83 Peco turnouts are not compatible with Atlas Flex Track (code 83).
turnouts themselves are pretty, but fragile compared to Atlas, meaning they break easily. I've managed to cause serious damage to several. The easiest way to destroy them is to use a dremel cut off tool to shorten the turnout motor rod while the motor is mounted to the turnout. You WILL ruin the tie rod and the cute little spring that everyone seems so in love with.
I've got 15 #5's with turnout motors and LED postion switches, I'd take $20 a piece for them.
My current direction is FastTracks, and have made 6 turnouts so far. There is a big learning curve to making the turnouts, my first was about 3 hours, I'm down to about an hour and still not sure I have some of the techniques now pat. All 6 are beautiful to look at and about half of them are now reliable to run on. I'll stay with it, because to my knowledge, the best turnout one can have with the 500 feet of Atlas flex I have is either an Atlas turnout or a FastTracks that has been specially ordered to use Atlas Rail. Not sorry I spent the money on the jigs, I'm just not competent with them so far!
My 2 cents,
Joe
If anyone has experience with the Central Valley turnouts, I'd sure be interested in hearing about them. I'm getting back into model railroading and have bought sevral of these kits. I handlaid a turnout once using the Tony Koester atricle and it worked well. But I can't help but feel that CV track is the way to go.
Any opinions?
SpaceMouse wrote:I'm going with Fast Tracks, much for the same reason that Chuck went with handlaid. Unlike the others, the ones you make are in guage and 100% relaible.
So I'm assuming that I should go with my gut and buy myself some Fast Tracks jigs?
Jake1210 wrote:So I'm assuming that I should go with my gut and buy myself some Fast Tracks jigs?
Never with your gut, but use your head.
Answering more than one of those as a no and you might want to rethink hand laying and might want to consider taking a pass on the Fast Tracks.
Just my 2 cents!
joe-daddy wrote: Jake1210 wrote: So I'm assuming that I should go with my gut and buy myself some Fast Tracks jigs?Never with your gut, but use your head. Do you like to do tedious repetive work? Are you in a hurry to get your track work done?Do you consider yourself skilled or seriously want to be skilled with files, soldering and detailed work? Can you see well, or are you comfortable with an optivisor? Do you have more than a dozen turnouts you need to make?Are you willing to scrap, give away, or take a serious loss on the turnouts you already have?Answering more than one of those as a no and you might want to rethink hand laying and might want to consider taking a pass on the Fast Tracks.Just my 2 cents!Joe
Jake1210 wrote: So I'm assuming that I should go with my gut and buy myself some Fast Tracks jigs?
Joe you make some good points, but....
1. Whether you consider building turnouts tedious is a pretty personal opinion.
2. There's no question it takes some time, but the results are pretty dramatic.
3. The skill level required is not that great, compared to other things that a model railroader also does. The set of tools makes the filing a breeze, the soldering straightforward. The instructions and videos make it pretty doable. Of course, like anything else, you get better with experience.
4. For turnouts (and I'm in N scale) it isn't really that bad, though I do find it easier with the opivisor. My double crossover was a bit tougher, there is a lot of stuff in close proximity.
5. This one I can see. At that point you might choose between handlaying without a jig, or commercial..
6. One benefit of a new layout, not much to scrap!
-Jake
Joe-Daddy does indeed raise good questions, but I must say that they are somewhat laden as values statements. What is tedium? Is it the fine work required of nicely rendered ballast? How about wiring...I'll bet there is more than one respondant here who would say that wiring is not his/her fave.
Who among us don't want things to happen quickly, but at the same time, who of us don't soon learn of the associated hazards to reliability, smooth running, consistent electrical contact, realism, and all the other characteristics of a good layout? Our hobby takes time, some things more, some less. It is purely subjective as to what constitutes a sufficient, necessary, or extraordinary amount of time to achieve results.
Skills are what this hobby requires in order to experience the best that it has to offer, although in appropriate measure. Fast Tracks turnouts come together quickly once the learning curve is done...for all of us. For decidely unskilled Crandell, for example, it was at the end of the third turnout, about 3 hours' worth. How much time are superior turnouts worth? Who decides?
I consider an Opti-visor mandatory, as I now do bifocals. It's life.
I only needed six of one kind of turnout, and two of the second. What I got was the ability to scratch any turnout I would subsequently need, plus the left-over jigs to build them Fast Tracks' way in any future numbers needed. What price skill?
As for the last question, there is a similar price with all learning and development. You discard the old and acquire the new, one turnout at a time. The rest can be given to needy friends, here or elsewhere, or sold on ebay.
Those questions are germane, and I heartily commend all modellers to them. Ability costs, but so do things to be purchased, things made by other people.
I think selector hit on a good point. Once you have a bit of experience with the jigs, I think you'll be able to build turnouts without them, as you'll understand how they go together. I have not built it yet, but my plan calls for a single double-slip switch. I have every intention of handlaying it, using the experience I've gained from using the jigs. I could easily design it out, but it is going to look cool, and I'm going to prove I can do it!
Joe-Daddy left out one critical point that could easily be a deal-maker for handlaid specialwork.
Do you like to have extra money available for other things, or would you rather spend it on store-boughten specialwork?
The difference between buying a single Atlas turnout and the cost of 'makin's' for the same thing hand-laid isn't much - just about enough for a snack at McBurgers. Once you've developed the skills, laying a hand-laid turnout takes less time than digesting that snack.
As trackwork gets more complex and intricate, the commercial product side begins to go cosmic. Hand-laying a double slip switch costs less than twice as much as a single hand-laid turnout. The difference between that and a decent commercial product will pay for a steak dinner.
So, how about a yard throat with two three-way switches and a couple of 'standard' turnouts, all built on a sweeping curve. How about another one, slightly different configuration (one more 'standard' turnout, wider radius curves) just across the thoroughfare track. Toss in a passenger station/engine change point with four double slips and several 'standard' turnouts at each end, plus a small classification yard, locomotive ready tracks.... At this point, the price differential gets into the brass locomotive range.
PLUS! All of that specialwork will be in gauge, mechanically and electrically bulletproof and ready to provide decades of satisfactory operation.
(Decades? I'm operating over hand-laid track that has been giving me trouble-free service since I built it - in 1980.)
Rats!
I just sent a big reply to the bit bucket......
So, I'll summarize.....
In general, handlaid turnouts look and work better than commercial.
For one (N-scale) turnout, materials cost is $2.75. The jigs (including the point filing tool) about $160.
It takes time, but I can knock out 2 or 3 in a week, when I need them, and still have time to keep everything else moving, at least a bit. Since I know I will take more than a year to build this thing, it isn't a showstopper.
I'll be building almost 80 turnouts, so it will cost me about $540 for them all, at least $100 less than Atlas code 55. (I have two different jigs, so I double the jig cost.)
In addition, I'll have the confidence to build a turnout without a jig, if the need arises. And to build my 'because I can' double-slip.
Pics my son took of the double crossover:
selector wrote:Joe-Daddy does indeed raise good questions, but I must say that they are somewhat laden as values statements. What is tedium? Is it the fine work required of nicely rendered ballast? How about wiring...I'll bet there is more than one respondant here who would say that wiring is not his/her fave.
Crandall,
Personally I don't equate the effort, difficulty and precision (tedium by my definition) required to build an acceptable turnout with the effort, difficulty and precision required ballast track or do any kind of wiring. I've built 6 turnouts and so far, I don't have the knack down. Others certainly may find it easier and more straight forward.
From my experience it is much harder than advocates would lead us to believe. Not impossible, not unworthy of the time, mind you, but I was prepared for it, meaning I did not believe the hype about how trivial it is to do.
selector wrote: Who among us don't want things to happen quickly, but at the same time, who of us don't soon learn of the associated hazards to reliability, smooth running, consistent electrical contact, realism, and all the other characteristics of a good layout? Our hobby takes time, some things more, some less. It is purely subjective as to what constitutes a sufficient, necessary, or extraordinary amount of time to achieve results.
With respect, you are rationalizing why the effort and time is worth while. I have no argument with that, but one needs to know that it may be an issue. IF one is building a new layout and needs 20 or so turnouts to be able to be minimally operational, it is going to crank a few months into the time line if their available time is as precious as some folks are. That is considerably different from a trip to the hobby shop.
selector wrote: Skills are what this hobby requires in order to experience the best that it has to offer, although in appropriate measure. Fast Tracks turnouts come together quickly once the learning curve is done...for all of us. For decidely unskilled Crandell, for example, it was at the end of the third turnout, about 3 hours' worth.
If you mastered building Fast Track turnouts in 3 hours time, I'm impressed but must point a bony finger of accusation toward your statement about being unskilled.
selector wrote: How much time are superior turnouts worth? Who decides?
How much time are superior turnouts worth? Who decides?
I spent over $400 on kits so I can learn to build turnouts. I've invested about 12 hours into the learning process and am still learning basic stuff. I think the output is worth the effort, I am just trying to not trivialize or marginalize the costs, effort of time required. Like the bacon for breakfast, I am committed to them nor would I consider asking for my money back.
As is typical with Mr. Selector, an excellent discussion, thank you Crandall for your response!
fulton wrote:Back to the original question (that is, which commercial turnout is most reliable), it seems nobody has mentioned Walther/Shinohara turnouts. Are they reliable enough to use in hidden locations? If you're using code 83 track where you can see it, is there any reason not to use it where you can't see it?
Yes, back to the original question. They work fine for me. Code 100 is "more bullet proof" but not by a lot in my experience. The biggest drawbacks are the price and sometimes availability.
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
Theres alot of info here and i guess i cant say to much thats already been said!
But heres my take on it.
The first layout i built was U.K practice and rolling stock. All my turnouts were hand laid without jigs, built by myself. There was around 20 of them including a diamond crossing and curved turnouts. After initial commisioning and fine tuning, they were 100% reliable.
When i built my new U.S based H0 layout i used Peco code 83 everywhere.
I done this for a couple of reasons. 1, it was readily available. 2, it looked prety good and alot better than their U.K based Streamline junk! and 3, i couldnt face building the dam things again by hand
My new layout has now been running for about 2 years and i have 1 cross over using #8's that is hidden. The only thing i done to these turnouts was get rid of the sharp edge of rail where the switch rails 'hinges' on the fixed frog rail as i found some flanges would pick it and derail. Apart from this minor fault, i find them 100% reliable and using electro frog with wired frog via Tortoise, they are perfect for DCC.
If i had my time over again i would maybe use Fasttracks but only cause they look alot better than commercial stuff. I am infact considering swapping out some of the Peco's in the scenic areas for these for the above reason but nothing else.
You'll have to include me in the Fast Tracks camp and also in the group with limited skills and bad eyes. I bought a #6 slip switch fixture and proceeded to make my first switch which wasn't great and never used but was a good learning experience. That lead to more slips and then some standard turnouts using thier point and frog helper and some Twist Ties which allow you to curve the turnout if need be. They work perfectly.
Wayne.