I've been considering getting my layout designed, and the Benchwork, Trackwork, and Electrical done. It would be roughly a 10x10 layout so I think that would help keep costs down. Does anyone have expirience with hiring out builders for your layout, if so How was it?
Its worth is as much as you are willing to pay for it.
Figure at least $20.00 an hour for labor, plus the lumber, the track and the wire. Question is how much time is the builder going to put into it.
An experienced builder can do it more quickly but will ask more per hour.
A friend or someone like that might do it for less but it will take far more hours.
Your best bet is to find a neighbor who will help you with the project.
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There have typically been several custom layout builders that advertise in MR magazine. Some 25 years ago (give or take) MR magazine did an article on custom built layout and interviewed a company and a few customers. It was very expensive even back then in the 5 figures in cost or more. Even to have a layout designed and built up to a plywood pacific level would likely costly but you can get quotes from those companies. Most model railroaders can't afford such services and learn to design and build layouts themselves. If you can afford the services, they are out there.
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I would suggest visiting a few local clubs and train shops. They will have more knowledge of local expertise and tradesmen. Unless you go with an expensive full-service custom layout builder, you are likely to have separate people doing the design, benchwork construction, track laying and wiring.
I guess I have to ask, though, "Why?"
To me and most on this forum, building a layout is part of the hobby, and it's the part many of us take the most pleasure and pride in. I kept track of my time, and found it took me about one month for every square foot of layout. I spent most of my time on detailed scenery, but that time includes building both structures and rolling stock from kits, tracklaying and wiring.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
For the layout design part, once you have decided on your own "givens & druthers", you can develop a plan yourself, or perhaps with help from this Forum, the Layout Design SIG, or other MRRs.
Then, with the track plan and specs for benchwork and subroadbed set, you can solicit bids from the various custom builders, which as noted earlier, is likely to be $$$. Another option would be to contact the local clubs, to see if they, or some of their individual members would be willing to submit a bid.
Jim
It is worth however much it is worth to YOU.
I just paid a pro painter $74, plus my $24 to ship an engine to him, for just a minor paint touch up on a model. But for that model, the investment is worth it to me.
I have seen layouts that were professionally designed and built. We are talking a few thousand dollars here, up to perhaps 10 grand. The owner of the layout is very happy as he has a completed, fully scenic'd layout that operates reliably to his specifications, and he didn't have to make a lot of mistakes during the learning process.
If you really don't think you have the time or all the skills, it is an option. Go with a reputable, referenced layout builder, or somebody you know well.
John
Since its only the design, benchwork, trackwork, and electrical, I'd think the costs would be reasonable. Start asking the builder to do scenery and structures and that would probably double the time spent, if not more.
Professional builders need lodging, or they could build your layout in sections at their shop and have it shipped. Especially with no scenery or structures to worry about.
- Douglas
MisterBeasleyTo me and most on this forum, building a layout is part of the hobby, and it's the part many of us take the most pleasure and pride in. I kept track of my time, and found it took me about one month for every square foot of layout. I spent most of my time on detailed scenery, but that time includes building both structures and rolling stock from kits, tracklaying and wiring.
Why? This is my first serious Layout. I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right. I don't feel like I could do a worthy enough job. Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
DavidH66This is my first serious Layout. I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right. I don't feel like I could do a worthy enough job. Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
There are people who will cajole you into their way of thinking so don't let them rattle your cage if you are not of the same mind. If you have the funds, there are definitely professionals out there who make a living at custom layout design builds. If you have a hard copy of MR magazine, you should be able to look them up and contact them for an estimate based on your vision of what you would like. They are pricey but if you have them build something say, unscenic'd then that would probably lower the cost somewhat.
As for drawing a layout, I've used the old graph paper with a scale rule and compass to design my track plans. If you do it that way, you'll be able to see how plausible your thoughts are because it's all to scale. I normally use 11x17' graph paper. There is a layout I drew out on graph paper for a previous home I lived in:
It looks like each square on that plan was 6". A scale rule is a good tool so you can measure how many feet there across the plan. As you can see I drew in the boundaries of the room and the track plan was drawn to fit the area keeping in mind minimum radius (32-inches in this case).
DavidH66 Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
Not to worry. Their are plenty of people on this forum who can help, and many are not shy about offering (helpful) suggestions.
Post a track plan. Even if it is rough drawn, freehand, and not to scale. See what happens.
Robert
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DavidH66 MisterBeasley To me and most on this forum, building a layout is part of the hobby, and it's the part many of us take the most pleasure and pride in. I kept track of my time, and found it took me about one month for every square foot of layout. I spent most of my time on detailed scenery, but that time includes building both structures and rolling stock from kits, tracklaying and wiring. Why? This is my first serious Layout. I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right. I don't feel like I could do a worthy enough job. Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
MisterBeasley To me and most on this forum, building a layout is part of the hobby, and it's the part many of us take the most pleasure and pride in. I kept track of my time, and found it took me about one month for every square foot of layout. I spent most of my time on detailed scenery, but that time includes building both structures and rolling stock from kits, tracklaying and wiring.
I think you have a sound idea. The part of the layout that you're talking about is not really a fun part of the hobby, more of a necessity. Myself, I kind of enjoy it, but I acknowledge its not for everybody.
Especially if you are uncomfortbale with track design, I think your approach makes even more sense.
Scenery, structures, and operations are the fun part.
I think it would be best to handle this in three phases.
.
1) Get a plan. Your plan will need to be perfect. Since you are paying others to build the layout, any changes in the order will cost time and money. Get a professional to help you with this.
2) Build the benchwork. There are a couple of specialists out there that just build Model Railroad Benchwork. Here in Florida there is "modelrailroadbenchwork dot com" that does beautiful work and has more than enough business just in the Tampa and Orlando areas. There must be someone you can hire in your area.
3) Hire someone to lay the track and make the wiring and controls work.
I say to do it in these three phases, because you can probably hire and excellent carpenter who does not know how to solder a feeder to a rail. Same for planners. Get an expert in each area.
The planning and benchwork cn probably be handled over the phone or email. Your track and wiring person should be local.
As for the expense, you better be ready for a shock. Skilled labor is very expensive. Figure $75.00 - $100.00 per hour for a profficient carpenter. The planning aspect I have no idea, and the track person is a wild card.
I would guess $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 for the project.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
David, don't sell yourself short. It isn't rocket science. Folks on this board can help you with any of the aspects of building your layout that you are unsure of. The satisfaction of completing the layout yourself, along with some new skills that you may learn along the way will be a positive. Give it a shot.
Get XTrakcad A free program and draw the layout or at least portions of it using it to test the fit of your design. It's free.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/xtrkcad-fork/files/
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
If you don't want to mess around with a CAD program on the computer, I got this giant pad of graph paper for $7.00 at Staples. Every square is 1". I use to draw freehand on a small pad of graph paper at work in my downtime. When I got something I liked I sat at the kitchen table and drew it out on this big pad while watching hockey.
I have architecture CAD programs that I draw house plans with so I have no problems with using Cad for MRR. For some reason I just like graph paper for the layout.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
DavidH66 I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right.
I can understand that. Design is supremely important to your long term satisfaction. Cuyama I think, does professional design, as well as offering free advice in the forum. He might have a better handle on costs.
There is a company that advertises in MR that builds benchwork. That is easier to ship than a whole RTR layout.
CMR advertises custom build railroads, and are based in Baltimore. I live 30 miles away so whatever the cost, it is easier to build a layout locally than to build it for a customer 300 miles away or 1300 miles away. Of course if there is enough money to be made in a job, anything is possible.
None of the free or paid software that helps you design a layout really teaches you how you should design your layout.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Personally I had my bench work done by a carpenter as part of a larger remodel he was doing on our house. Part of the reason for this is that I no longer have the strength to handle carpentry and part was that I wanted the bench work to look like furniture.
Can't say what it cost as it was part of a larger project but it was worth it to allow me to concentrate on track work wiring etc. that I can do.
Joe Staten Island West
Over my many years in this hobby, and being a draftsman by original trade, I have designed a number of layouts for others. Some for free, some for profit........I advertised in MR about three decades ago.......
I do think hiring a designer is a good idea for some people, I am not up on current fees that are being charged, and I am not able or willing to take on such projects right now.
There area number of skilled people in this business, I strongly suggest the OP get some qoutes on their services.
I suspect any actual construction will be expensive by most measures, considering that construction in general is expensive. Even in the size the OP proposes, $10,000 or more would not surprise me.
Sheldon
SeeYou190 As for the expense, you better be ready for a shock. Skilled labor is very expensive. Figure $75.00 - $100.00 per hour for a profficient carpenter. The planning aspect I have no idea, and the track person is a wild card. I would guess $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 for the project. . -Kevin .
Golly. At that rate and a standard 5 day, 40 hour work week which is 2,000 hours per year, that's an annual salary of $200,000.
I'd ask for $50 an hour and a time limit. Give him/her enough lead time so he can stay busy before and after your job.
Building MRR benchwork isn't as highly skilled as most other projects they would take on, IMO, so you might get a less skilled carpenter for less.
Complain about it if you want, go ahead and kick off. There are high hourly rates for some skills. Thats why most of us can't afford to have layouts built for us.
Move along, move along.
Doughless SeeYou190 As for the expense, you better be ready for a shock. Skilled labor is very expensive. Figure $75.00 - $100.00 per hour for a profficient carpenter. The planning aspect I have no idea, and the track person is a wild card. I would guess $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 for the project. . -Kevin . Golly. At that rate and a standard 5 day, 40 hour work week which is 2,000 hours per year, that's an annual salary of $200,000. I'd ask for $50 an hour and a time limit. Give him/her enough lead time so he can stay busy before and after your job. Building MRR benchwork isn't as highly skilled as most other projects they would take on, IMO, so you might get a less skilled carpenter for less.
The hourly rates of many tradesmen include much more than their "take home" pay before taxes. They have operating expenses, trucks, tools (lots of expensive tools that do wear out), insurance, etc.
And there is always "un-billable" time in every project, but guess what, the workers still need to be paid.
I run a small business doing custom remodeling and historic preservation. Our rates are VERY reasonable and competitive, and even at that it will cost you $3,000 for my helper and I to work on your house (or your model railroad) for a week.
Two skillled master carpenters will cost you closer to $4,000 a week.
Almost all our work is time and materials..........we do prepare budgets in advance, but are never locked into a price/time limit.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless SeeYou190 As for the expense, you better be ready for a shock. Skilled labor is very expensive. Figure $75.00 - $100.00 per hour for a profficient carpenter. The planning aspect I have no idea, and the track person is a wild card. I would guess $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 for the project. . -Kevin . Golly. At that rate and a standard 5 day, 40 hour work week which is 2,000 hours per year, that's an annual salary of $200,000. I'd ask for $50 an hour and a time limit. Give him/her enough lead time so he can stay busy before and after your job. Building MRR benchwork isn't as highly skilled as most other projects they would take on, IMO, so you might get a less skilled carpenter for less. The hourly rates of many tradesmen include much more than their "take home" pay before taxes. They have operating expenses, trucks, tools (lots of expensive tools that do wear out), insurance, etc. And there is always "un-billable" time in every project, but guess what, the workers still need to be paid. I run a small business doing custom remodeling and historic preservation. Our rates are VERY reasonable and competitive, and even at that it will cost you $3,000 for my helper and I to work on your house (or your model railroad) for a week. Two skillled master carpenters will cost you closer to $4,000 a week. Almost all our work is time and materials..........we do prepare budgets in advance, but are never locked into a price/time limit. Sheldon
Yes Sheldon, I was thinking of you as I wrote that, thinking there was probably some costs built into the price. My thinking is that a person like yourself is equipped with knowledge need to restore houses back to period architecture and I would think that knowledge would be part of your fees as well as the skill of more specialized carpentry.
MRR benchwork isn't quite on the same skill level, but I could see where the knowledge needed to design the layout and benchwork justifies the added costs over what a handyman might charge to assemble 1x stock and plywood.
OT: I've been having trouble finding semi-skilled carpenters/contractors to do some basic home repairs that I want to have done (more out of convenience than lack of know how), their idea of the price is not the same as mine. I had to talk to the less-than-professional types because the more formal contractors weren't interested in doing any projects less than rebuilding half of my house.
Too few skilled tradesmen these days. JMO
You can't really expect a professional to cut you a break, just because it could be done cheaper if you you had the tools and skills to do it yourself.
Building benchwork won't bring in the money of remodeling a kitchen. Would you rather spend 2 days working on a $500 job or a $3,000 job?
How you would find a railroad 'electrician' that would solder and wire your railroad for a couple hundred bucks is beyond my imagination.
Even works that way for those of us that sit at a desk for a living. I'm a consultant and my company charges almost 2.5 times my salary to have me sit there and do work. If I was freelance, I'd probably be charging more like 1.85 times (so I could low ball on bids!), but then I'd have a ton overhead to worry about that I don't have to worry about now. I'd have to have a lawyer laying around to make sure I dotted all the Is on the bids and I don't have to worry about that now.
BigDaddyHow you would find a railroad 'electrician' that would solder and wire your railroad for a couple hundred bucks is beyond my imagination.
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I have been following this thread with great interest!
I do understand the OP´s quest for professional help in certain parts of the layout design and construction process. Not everyone is an ops specialist, able to design a layout which is both nice to look at and interesting to operate. Not everyone is a handy carpenter, able to build a solid benchwork, which will not warp, distort or shift, and not everyone is an electrician, able to do a reliable wiriing of a layout.
There are various ways of enlisting the help needed. The easiest is to address the venture with a professional layout builder. There are quite a few around and they are happy to give you a quote or tell you their requirements for such a quote. Expect to have to pay top $,$$$ for their services, though. If you don´t want to spend that much, go to your local model railroading club and tell them your ideas. There may be friendly folks who are willing to lend you a helping hand , which may not be free of charge, but a lot cheaper than what people who have to make a living from building layouts for other people will charge.
The last option is to read, collect information, ask questions, evaluate the answers. This forum is one of the best platforms for that. Building a layout is always connected to trial and error, and whatever you do, you can only learn the trade by doing!
For reasons of health, I am no longer to do a number of things related to building a layout. The use of power tools is no longer possible, and a soldering gun is totally out of question. I am lucky to have friends who were willing and able to help get these things done! None of them is a model railroader, just a good friend. In my humble opinion, that´s the best option!
If I was in the OP's shoes, and assuming physical or cognitive challenges are not the reason I'd go this route, I think I would explore the use of the pre-fab layout modules such as Sievers, Mianne or Kam Konnect (there are others) offer
https://www.sieversbenchwork.com/
http://www.miannebenchwork.com/benchwork_kits.htm
http://www.kamkonnect.com/about.html
You can assemble these without really having to have a layout plan in mind, not unlike the David Barrow "domino" benchwork approach. I think it is fair to say they are easy to assemble, in the sense that certain makes of furniture are easy to assemble, and the cutting has been done for you.
Rather than hire a true custom builder which IS expensive, particularly if you are using them "from the ground up," I'd see if there are local modelers (perhaps found via the local NMRA Division or Region) who for a fee would be willing to help plan the layout, take the modules which I supply and connect them, put down the track, and wire the thing. What you'd need from them is a sense of commitment to the project which is where the money part comes in.
There are guys who really like that part of the hobby after all, and once their own layouts are beyond that stage, might be looking for something like this primarily for the fun and only secondarily for the money.
Dave Nelson
Re: Hourly cost. There is a help wanted ad in the November '17 MR for an "experienced model railroad builder for contract work"...."no professional experience needed". Sounds like a contradiction to me. Anyway, rate is "$15 to $25 per hour based on skill and efficiency."
So if this ad was placed by a layout building organization, I would expect that those rates would be marked up 2 to 2-1/2 times to the client.
maxman, I was about to reply with the same reasoning. Count on about $50/hr for simple design work, and about the same per person for a team that has to live on the economy for the week/two that they are away from their residences and traveling to work putting up your plan. They may even want a small per-diem of about $100/day to pay for meals and lodging. From there, plus you supplying the materials (you wouldn't ask them to shop for you...would you?), the math is rather simple: hourly rate X hours of work X number of persons commanding that hourly rate.