DavidH66 I've been considering getting my layout designed, and the Benchwork, Trackwork, and Electrical done. It would be roughly a 10x10 layout so I think that would help keep costs down. Does anyone have expirience with hiring out builders for your layout, if so How was it?
I've been considering getting my layout designed, and the Benchwork, Trackwork, and Electrical done. It would be roughly a 10x10 layout so I think that would help keep costs down. Does anyone have expirience with hiring out builders for your layout, if so How was it?
Doesn't look like the OP (original poster) has joined back in his discussion??
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
I have another data point via the latest email from MR. There is a firm that will design your plan for $1,000 for up to 800 sq thread.
In another thread someone was asking about a full size track plan, that would be $3/ sq ft on paper 2-3 feet wide by 24 feet long.
The name of the firm is in the latest email.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
DavidH66 MisterBeasley To me and most on this forum, building a layout is part of the hobby, and it's the part many of us take the most pleasure and pride in. I kept track of my time, and found it took me about one month for every square foot of layout. I spent most of my time on detailed scenery, but that time includes building both structures and rolling stock from kits, tracklaying and wiring. Why? This is my first serious Layout. I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right. I don't feel like I could do a worthy enough job. Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
MisterBeasley To me and most on this forum, building a layout is part of the hobby, and it's the part many of us take the most pleasure and pride in. I kept track of my time, and found it took me about one month for every square foot of layout. I spent most of my time on detailed scenery, but that time includes building both structures and rolling stock from kits, tracklaying and wiring.
Why? This is my first serious Layout. I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right. I don't feel like I could do a worthy enough job. Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
STUART SIBITZKYThink of the "essential" part of your layout as simply a scene.
.
My next layout will feature only one city, and the operation will be the trains running through, switching in, or originating in this city.
The STRATTON & GILLETTE is a massive Class A railroad, but I am going to model only 0.01% of it this time. There are too many compromises trying to model a run in between cities inside of a house. Especially when you are limited to a 11 by 22 single deck layout with no duckunders.
Modeling one scene on a big system looks like my best choice this time around.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
A 10x10 layout is a comfortable size for a home (mine is 11x15, trackwork/wiring is nearing 90% complete). I have to echo the thoughts of a few here and say that while the tablework, track and wiring can be daunting (but not overwhelming with a little help), there is great satisfaction when someone walks into the train-room and says "Wow!". There are so many skills to be learned. Not necessarily perfected but learned nevertheless. Enough on that. Many folks approach layout design (which obviously includes those "three") from a "How much can I pack into this space?" If you "pack in" a lot, it increases design time, building time, track laying time and complexity, wiring time and complexity, maintenance and cleaning, and eventually the frustration from trying to "do it all" in a small space (and "small" is definitely a relative term) and having to clean the track and dust your miniature empire. Whether you're building it yourself or having it built, complexity of plan will raise time required, costs and frustration levels in the near term as well as "down the road".
Lets wrap this up and get off the soapbox! There's a great little article in Model Railroader titled "Don't Build Too Much Railroad" that really hits the nail on the head. One quote.....
"In designing a layout we are perhaps too accustomed to thinking of our Railroad as a complete unit. Think of the "essential" part of your layout as simply a scene. Then, instead of cramming a whole division into one room, we can build a better scale scene typical of the railroad we want to represent and leave the rest of the division to the imagination."
Great article! Save money, time and frustration and have more fun! Oh yes, the Article..... March 1941.
I am a 70 year old retired, and partially disabled. My first layout was a 8x10 HO layout in 1960. I college in the 60’s I ran N-scale track on a ping-pong table. Over 20 years of military service and 20+ years in private industry that had me on the move, along with raising a family, meant I never built the layout of my dreams. But I had a dream and about locomotives, buildings and other items that fit into my dream layout.
I was lucky to find a professional builder in my area. He quickly showed me my dream layout was impractical considering the handicap I had (lost most of the use of my legs). He designed a layout to fit in the third garage (12x22). His design probably cost about $6,000. The layout consists of the main level, with a helix down to a twelve track staging area. Total layout has about 125 turnouts. The contract to build as you want, benchwork, track, DCC installation and other electrical work including signals, will cost me about $45,000 plus materials (lumber, track, cork, wire, bridges, tunnel portals, turntable, etc). Materials were estimated at about $20,000.
We are now about half finished. He has completed and tested the helix, and about half of the upper level track. He is the ultimate professional. His design included benchwork that allowed for the positioning of all 125 tortoise machines without special work-arounds. As I have watched him build this layout, I know that even if I were fully capable (like I was 10 years ago), I could not have built a layout with the degree of perfection that he has. I was planning on doing the scenery myself (I am already assembling some of the structures), but I may have him do some of the scenery (phase 2) of the layout.
Bottom line: in my case, hiring a professional was necessary. The cost is high, but if you can afford it, I would recommend going that route.
riogrande5761So has any conclusion by the original poster been made while everyone has been debating this whole thing?
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/265330/2998503.aspx#2998503
So has any conclusion by the original poster been made while everyone has been debating this whole thing? Does the OP have the "scratch" to do what he is wanting in light of the costs?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
BigDaddy You can't really expect a professional to cut you a break, just because it could be done cheaper if you you had the tools and skills to do it yourself. Building benchwork won't bring in the money of remodeling a kitchen. Would you rather spend 2 days working on a $500 job or a $3,000 job? How you would find a railroad 'electrician' that would solder and wire your railroad for a couple hundred bucks is beyond my imagination.
You can't really expect a professional to cut you a break, just because it could be done cheaper if you you had the tools and skills to do it yourself.
Building benchwork won't bring in the money of remodeling a kitchen. Would you rather spend 2 days working on a $500 job or a $3,000 job?
How you would find a railroad 'electrician' that would solder and wire your railroad for a couple hundred bucks is beyond my imagination.
Disagree and it depends. If you live in a major metro area and the outside firm can batch projects together they will take your small project. The visit to my home for initial consulting coincided with another visit they needed to make to Dallas........so they combined my project in the Dallas area with another one.
Same deal with home contractors as well. Home contractors will take smaller jobs if they can combine them with others in your area. It depends on where you live.
Now if you live in Moose Jaw, Montana and your nearest nieghbor is across the county........I would agree with you.
DavidH66Why? This is my first serious Layout. I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right. I don't feel like I could do a worthy enough job. Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
Agree with you, and this is my fourth HO Scale layout. If your new because of the complexity of everything fitting together, best to apprentice at a club or have someone build for you the first layout. Building it yourself will be an iterative process otherwise and will cost you more typically than you will pay an outside firm to review your track plan and redo it to make it better.
David, I am having my layout benchwork built by professionals. To help you roughly compare and to respect the vendor I am not going to use exact costs because I was also a independent businessman and if you post exact costs and the specific vendor on a public forum everyone from then on will try and nickle and dime the firm, which I don't think is fair to their business. So will use a rough analogy on costs so they do not have to deal with future clients that might read this insisting they are too expensive.
So my layout they are doing the trackplan and benchwork construction only. I am doing the track, wiring, and scenery (this is reducing costs). Obviously there is some overlap here, with the benchwork they are doing the wiring guides underneath to align with the track plan so that the wiring remains organized vs spaghetti. Additionally they will make an effort to align benchwork supports to avoid potential switch machine placement (best efforts not 100%). They will place a facia on the benchwork for switch machine controls, partially hide wiring and switch machines, etc.
My HO Scale layout is being constructed in a 10 by 11 bedroom with two levels and a helix connecting both levels so that trains can run continuously between levels. They asked me to submit a draft track plan and reviewed it but after speaking with me stated they would like to amend the track plan to be more flexible operationally because they thought I would get bored quickly with what I submitted. Told them that was fine with me.
So items that will impact benchwork are: Min radius 30 inches, Min turnout - Atlas #6, One flat switching yard, closed loop, want DCC blocks, Longest train about 6-7 feet. So that alone is a lot of work and engineering that has to be done. Additionally they have to work around a window and a door. Set optimal distance from the floor for the first tabletop to match my height, optimal distance between level 1 and level 2. Optimal support structure so I can clean the floor underneath the benchwork as well as crawl underneath. On top of all that I want it to be modular so when I move I can take it with me and reassemble in the new home.
In all their bid was about what I would expect to pay for a large quality custom built-in entertainment center (built by an experienced carpenter and not using particle board). Which I feel is reasonable.
Your requirements for them to lay the trackwork and do the wiring and scenery is going to increase the costs quite a bit from what I am paying. Additionally they built into the contract what are called "settle up costs" which allows them to go over the estimate we agreed on if they need to or refund me if they come in significantly under the estimate. I think that is fine and also reasonable. Others in the hobby might have conniptions over that "wiggle room". However, it allows either party to change designs or approaches without haveing to re-estimate everything but while still remaining reasonable on costs and not using that clause of the contract to gouge.
They also established a multi-month payment plan with deadlines on the payments and a specific amount you have to deposit down to start the work (I asked for that). So they have a month or two for planning and construction. I signed the contract in August and since they have to also attend train shows and fall was approaching I told them to be reasonable, they can take up to Christmas for all I care. I just wanted them to complete by 2018 if possible. They said they could probably meet that deadline. I also asked them to delay until September because I was in the middle of a debt consolidation so would have a cash flow issues in September. They did that as well.
Great working relationship established, both speak the same lingo as I have been in the Hobby before and exited in 1990. They are updating me in places from 1990 to current with the DCC controller. So far so good, I am getting great value via their consulting and advice. :)
DoughlessGolly. At that rate and a standard 5 day, 40 hour work week which is 2,000 hours per year, that's an annual salary of $200,000.
We charge about $140.00 per hour for a skilled engine technician.
They earn about $80,000.00 to $100,000.00 per year.
Skilled labor and trades are only getting more expensive. Ever tried to train a Millenial? They expect instant gratification and have the attention span of a deranged gnat or maybe a spastic goldfish.
Skilled labor that requires years to hone is becoming very difficult to pass on to the next generation.
selectorThey may even want a small per-diem of about $100/day to pay for meals and lodging.
Actually the ad went on to say that there would be an additional amount paid to cover some expenses, so all that gets an adder when billed to the client.
And many contractors want to purchase their own materials because they get a contractor's discount. Then they pocket the discount and bill the client, either retail or retail plus.
An additional issue that comes up when the client purchases material is when the purchased item is either wrong or doesn't fit. Who is responsibile for that? And if there is a product warranty issue, who has the responsibility for correcting that?
maxman, I was about to reply with the same reasoning. Count on about $50/hr for simple design work, and about the same per person for a team that has to live on the economy for the week/two that they are away from their residences and traveling to work putting up your plan. They may even want a small per-diem of about $100/day to pay for meals and lodging. From there, plus you supplying the materials (you wouldn't ask them to shop for you...would you?), the math is rather simple: hourly rate X hours of work X number of persons commanding that hourly rate.
Re: Hourly cost. There is a help wanted ad in the November '17 MR for an "experienced model railroad builder for contract work"...."no professional experience needed". Sounds like a contradiction to me. Anyway, rate is "$15 to $25 per hour based on skill and efficiency."
So if this ad was placed by a layout building organization, I would expect that those rates would be marked up 2 to 2-1/2 times to the client.
If I was in the OP's shoes, and assuming physical or cognitive challenges are not the reason I'd go this route, I think I would explore the use of the pre-fab layout modules such as Sievers, Mianne or Kam Konnect (there are others) offer
https://www.sieversbenchwork.com/
http://www.miannebenchwork.com/benchwork_kits.htm
http://www.kamkonnect.com/about.html
You can assemble these without really having to have a layout plan in mind, not unlike the David Barrow "domino" benchwork approach. I think it is fair to say they are easy to assemble, in the sense that certain makes of furniture are easy to assemble, and the cutting has been done for you.
Rather than hire a true custom builder which IS expensive, particularly if you are using them "from the ground up," I'd see if there are local modelers (perhaps found via the local NMRA Division or Region) who for a fee would be willing to help plan the layout, take the modules which I supply and connect them, put down the track, and wire the thing. What you'd need from them is a sense of commitment to the project which is where the money part comes in.
There are guys who really like that part of the hobby after all, and once their own layouts are beyond that stage, might be looking for something like this primarily for the fun and only secondarily for the money.
Dave Nelson
I have been following this thread with great interest!
I do understand the OP´s quest for professional help in certain parts of the layout design and construction process. Not everyone is an ops specialist, able to design a layout which is both nice to look at and interesting to operate. Not everyone is a handy carpenter, able to build a solid benchwork, which will not warp, distort or shift, and not everyone is an electrician, able to do a reliable wiriing of a layout.
There are various ways of enlisting the help needed. The easiest is to address the venture with a professional layout builder. There are quite a few around and they are happy to give you a quote or tell you their requirements for such a quote. Expect to have to pay top $,$$$ for their services, though. If you don´t want to spend that much, go to your local model railroading club and tell them your ideas. There may be friendly folks who are willing to lend you a helping hand , which may not be free of charge, but a lot cheaper than what people who have to make a living from building layouts for other people will charge.
The last option is to read, collect information, ask questions, evaluate the answers. This forum is one of the best platforms for that. Building a layout is always connected to trial and error, and whatever you do, you can only learn the trade by doing!
For reasons of health, I am no longer to do a number of things related to building a layout. The use of power tools is no longer possible, and a soldering gun is totally out of question. I am lucky to have friends who were willing and able to help get these things done! None of them is a model railroader, just a good friend. In my humble opinion, that´s the best option!
BigDaddyHow you would find a railroad 'electrician' that would solder and wire your railroad for a couple hundred bucks is beyond my imagination.
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ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless SeeYou190 As for the expense, you better be ready for a shock. Skilled labor is very expensive. Figure $75.00 - $100.00 per hour for a profficient carpenter. The planning aspect I have no idea, and the track person is a wild card. I would guess $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 for the project. . -Kevin . Golly. At that rate and a standard 5 day, 40 hour work week which is 2,000 hours per year, that's an annual salary of $200,000. I'd ask for $50 an hour and a time limit. Give him/her enough lead time so he can stay busy before and after your job. Building MRR benchwork isn't as highly skilled as most other projects they would take on, IMO, so you might get a less skilled carpenter for less. The hourly rates of many tradesmen include much more than their "take home" pay before taxes. They have operating expenses, trucks, tools (lots of expensive tools that do wear out), insurance, etc. And there is always "un-billable" time in every project, but guess what, the workers still need to be paid. I run a small business doing custom remodeling and historic preservation. Our rates are VERY reasonable and competitive, and even at that it will cost you $3,000 for my helper and I to work on your house (or your model railroad) for a week. Two skillled master carpenters will cost you closer to $4,000 a week. Almost all our work is time and materials..........we do prepare budgets in advance, but are never locked into a price/time limit. Sheldon
Doughless SeeYou190 As for the expense, you better be ready for a shock. Skilled labor is very expensive. Figure $75.00 - $100.00 per hour for a profficient carpenter. The planning aspect I have no idea, and the track person is a wild card. I would guess $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 for the project. . -Kevin . Golly. At that rate and a standard 5 day, 40 hour work week which is 2,000 hours per year, that's an annual salary of $200,000. I'd ask for $50 an hour and a time limit. Give him/her enough lead time so he can stay busy before and after your job. Building MRR benchwork isn't as highly skilled as most other projects they would take on, IMO, so you might get a less skilled carpenter for less.
SeeYou190 As for the expense, you better be ready for a shock. Skilled labor is very expensive. Figure $75.00 - $100.00 per hour for a profficient carpenter. The planning aspect I have no idea, and the track person is a wild card. I would guess $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 for the project. . -Kevin .
As for the expense, you better be ready for a shock. Skilled labor is very expensive. Figure $75.00 - $100.00 per hour for a profficient carpenter. The planning aspect I have no idea, and the track person is a wild card.
I would guess $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 for the project.
Golly. At that rate and a standard 5 day, 40 hour work week which is 2,000 hours per year, that's an annual salary of $200,000.
I'd ask for $50 an hour and a time limit. Give him/her enough lead time so he can stay busy before and after your job.
Building MRR benchwork isn't as highly skilled as most other projects they would take on, IMO, so you might get a less skilled carpenter for less.
The hourly rates of many tradesmen include much more than their "take home" pay before taxes. They have operating expenses, trucks, tools (lots of expensive tools that do wear out), insurance, etc.
And there is always "un-billable" time in every project, but guess what, the workers still need to be paid.
I run a small business doing custom remodeling and historic preservation. Our rates are VERY reasonable and competitive, and even at that it will cost you $3,000 for my helper and I to work on your house (or your model railroad) for a week.
Two skillled master carpenters will cost you closer to $4,000 a week.
Almost all our work is time and materials..........we do prepare budgets in advance, but are never locked into a price/time limit.
Sheldon
Even works that way for those of us that sit at a desk for a living. I'm a consultant and my company charges almost 2.5 times my salary to have me sit there and do work. If I was freelance, I'd probably be charging more like 1.85 times (so I could low ball on bids!), but then I'd have a ton overhead to worry about that I don't have to worry about now. I'd have to have a lawyer laying around to make sure I dotted all the Is on the bids and I don't have to worry about that now.
Yes Sheldon, I was thinking of you as I wrote that, thinking there was probably some costs built into the price. My thinking is that a person like yourself is equipped with knowledge need to restore houses back to period architecture and I would think that knowledge would be part of your fees as well as the skill of more specialized carpentry.
MRR benchwork isn't quite on the same skill level, but I could see where the knowledge needed to design the layout and benchwork justifies the added costs over what a handyman might charge to assemble 1x stock and plywood.
OT: I've been having trouble finding semi-skilled carpenters/contractors to do some basic home repairs that I want to have done (more out of convenience than lack of know how), their idea of the price is not the same as mine. I had to talk to the less-than-professional types because the more formal contractors weren't interested in doing any projects less than rebuilding half of my house.
Too few skilled tradesmen these days. JMO
- Douglas
Complain about it if you want, go ahead and kick off. There are high hourly rates for some skills. Thats why most of us can't afford to have layouts built for us.
Move along, move along.
Over my many years in this hobby, and being a draftsman by original trade, I have designed a number of layouts for others. Some for free, some for profit........I advertised in MR about three decades ago.......
I do think hiring a designer is a good idea for some people, I am not up on current fees that are being charged, and I am not able or willing to take on such projects right now.
There area number of skilled people in this business, I strongly suggest the OP get some qoutes on their services.
I suspect any actual construction will be expensive by most measures, considering that construction in general is expensive. Even in the size the OP proposes, $10,000 or more would not surprise me.
Personally I had my bench work done by a carpenter as part of a larger remodel he was doing on our house. Part of the reason for this is that I no longer have the strength to handle carpentry and part was that I wanted the bench work to look like furniture.
Can't say what it cost as it was part of a larger project but it was worth it to allow me to concentrate on track work wiring etc. that I can do.
Joe Staten Island West
DavidH66 I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right.
I can understand that. Design is supremely important to your long term satisfaction. Cuyama I think, does professional design, as well as offering free advice in the forum. He might have a better handle on costs.
There is a company that advertises in MR that builds benchwork. That is easier to ship than a whole RTR layout.
CMR advertises custom build railroads, and are based in Baltimore. I live 30 miles away so whatever the cost, it is easier to build a layout locally than to build it for a customer 300 miles away or 1300 miles away. Of course if there is enough money to be made in a job, anything is possible.
None of the free or paid software that helps you design a layout really teaches you how you should design your layout.
If you don't want to mess around with a CAD program on the computer, I got this giant pad of graph paper for $7.00 at Staples. Every square is 1". I use to draw freehand on a small pad of graph paper at work in my downtime. When I got something I liked I sat at the kitchen table and drew it out on this big pad while watching hockey.
I have architecture CAD programs that I draw house plans with so I have no problems with using Cad for MRR. For some reason I just like graph paper for the layout.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."