Just wanted to get some opinions on the minimum activities, like refueling, water, miscellaneous maintenance etc., AND minimum track arrangements of a prototype RR yard, that would transfer to a Model RR yard.
In other words, the "least" you could have in a RR Yard to truthfully say it is exactly a model of a prototype yard, but just tracks for sorting, is not enough.
I'm talking about a yard with some maintenance activities also.
As we all know, "space" is the main restriction to getting that prototype realism, 2nd after cost.
A great source is the Kalmbach book, "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards" by the late master, Andy Sperandeo.
regards, Peter
Minimal? Like 3 tracks, maybe?
Two tracks to sort into (because you'd have to have at least 2 destinations to need to herd the cars around) and a runaround. The run-around could be part of one of the yard tracks (because really all you need are two stub tracks) or it could connect to part of the neighnoring main line in order to get on the other end of a car.
You could call a stub-end pair of spurs a yard, but without a run-around that's really more like a pair of storage tracks. Just one track is nothing but a spur or siding. But that's splitting hairs a bit, which I'm sure someone's ready to do.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Mike is on the right track, so to speak.
First, you need a track where a train can arrive. Then you need a "thorofare track" which is usually kept open so that engines can run to the opposite end of the train; and you need about two, or preferably more, single end or double end tracks for sorting cars.
In some very spartan arrangements, locomotive servicing is occasionally done on one of these yard tracks, or even on the main line, with diesel fuel provided by trucks. However, it is generally preferable to have at least one designated track for locomotive servicing. In the steam era, an additional track was often used to store hopper cars or oil tank cars for locomotive fuel. Steam engines also need a source of water, which could be a large tank, a simple standpipe connected to a city water supply, or even a simple hydrant and hose. It is usually preferable to have a turning facility for steam engines (turntable or wye), but this isn't always necessary. This was discussed recently in another thread.
Tom
Of course minimum needed is a ton of space. =P
I'm trying to squeeze my minimal yard into an 18 foot long room - work in progress:
Have added two more tracks where there are lines near the outside and have more to add yet, incluidng a couple of engine servicing tracks, a couple of caboose tracks and a couple of industries to switch. It's just a small "get my feet wet" layout for a couple years.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Big Boy Forever In other words, the "least" you could have in a RR Yard to truthfully say it is exactly a model of a prototype yard, but just tracks for sorting, is not enough. I'm talking about a yard with some maintenance activities also.
You could have an engine or two assigned to a yard and once a week send tham to a nearby larger yard with service facilities.
I have thought a lot about yards because the "Givens" in my layout room created a non-traditional yard arrangement and I have been challenged. I get to test if my yard will work in the couple of weeks as I add a branchline and a track arrangement for a town which will be the current end of line on the main.
Excellent answers from prior responses. As you gather from those, you need the following key elements in addition to Engine Service:
Then I would ask a couple questions:
There is an excellent write up on Classification Yards at: http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html
NP.
I looked at a similar set of questions when I designed my yard. I described the design process in an article on my website that you might find interesting.
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I went minimal with my dfinition because sometimes yards are just that, they serve a minimal range of needs. Engine facilities, caboose tracks, cleanout tracks, multi-modal ramps, etc depend on local needs. Another yard nearby might handle many or all of these, leaving nothing but some sorting to be done at a minimalist sort of yard.
Here's an example, a couple of pics of my Dove Creek Yard.
In the pic above, the farthest left track is an industrail lead and not part of the yard, although it offers a handy place to shove a few cars into if needed. The next track, 2nd from the left, is the freight running track. It joins the main out of sight behind the industries on the left at the Dove Creek station. You can see it in this next pic, with the industrial track ending before getting to the station.
Finally, looking back toward where the first pic was taken from, the 2 track closest to the yard are the yard track proper. Both are double ended, which helps, but one or both could be stub-ended so long as there's a nearby runaround.
Note that the switcher and caboose just sit there, unless they need to move. Not too fancy, but serves Dove Creek just fine.
There were a number of informative responses when last you raised a similar question:http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/229837.aspx
You might review the comments made and resources suggested from that go-round.
As many noted back then, the answer varies depending on the era, locale, and purpose of the yard (such as branch junction, interchange, industry suport, division point, etc.). And that is filtered further by the model railroad realities each of us faces.
If you have an actual model application this time, letting folks know what you want to do with the overall layout and how much space you have for the yard will help them provide you with useful answers. Discussing yards in the abstract may not help much with an actual layout design, IMHO.
If this is a theoretical discussion again, letting folks know that up front will help them direct their answers.
Real-life yards can be remarkably compact on branch lines and short lines. The modern era Ballard Terminal Railroad makes do with a yard that is two double-ended tracks and a nearby spur for engine service and storage. That's probably about the minimum ... and it goes on from there.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Big Boy ForeverAND minimum track arrangements of a prototype RR yard, that would transfer to a Model RR yard.
That really depends on your prototype railroad, the actual prototype location, and the time period you are modeling.
If you ever get the chance go to Steamtown Nation Historic Park in Scranton, Pa. They have a timeline of the rail facilities at the museums location going back to the ~1870s. Another place to look is Andy Sperandeo's book Freight Yards. Also check out John Armstrong's book Track Planning for Realistic Operation. These books will have the basic yard design concepts. Kalmbach also has a Model railroader's guide to locomotive servicing terminals. Finally, if you really want to get into the nuts and bolts of layout design, check out http://www.ldsig.org/.
Also you may want to decide if you are going to run operating sessions, or just run trains yourself. This will influence your design choices.
Big Boy ForeverIn other words, the "least" you could have in a RR Yard to truthfully say it is exactly a model of a prototype yard, but just tracks for sorting, is not enough.
That would again depend on your prototype, era and location. If you take a prototype track arrangement and start deleting tracks, you may find that your yard does not work correctly.
My yard is based loosely on Rigby Yard, South Portland, Maine. I have 2 arrival/departure tracks where trains are made and broken down and sorted for off-line destinations, 6 sorting tracks, 9 stall roundhouse (under construction), 130ft Turntable (yes my prototypes TT is only 105 or 115, dont remember, but I was in a hurry), machine shop, coaling tower, diesel fueling stand, sanding tower and sand drying house, ash pit (not yet installed), water tower and separate water columns, and a RIP (Repair In Place) track, caboose tracks, separate coach yard for passsenger cars and most importantly, my arrival/departure tracks do not interfere with the yard switching lead. This is what I deemed to be the minimum. Your results may vary.
If this is your railroads major shop facilities you will need quite and extensive backshop area connected to, or closely adjoing your roundhouse. If you have ice activated refrigerator cars, you may need icing facilities.
HO-Velo A great source is the Kalmbach book, "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards" by the late master, Andy Sperandeo.
And I found Marty McGuirk's The Model Railroader's Guide to Locomotive Servicing Terminals to be quite helpful, as well.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
this is a good read.
http://housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html
Steve
Great responsees, so you have a lot to consider when planning your yard. Considering space is critical the yard should function. No two people try to capture the same form of operations for multiple reasons. What are you wanting from the yard?
On my stub-ended yard, I have an intermodal area, a loco service shop, and classification tracks. Having a stub-ended yard is fine, but I really wanted a double ended one. Given the space limitations, I was unable to get one. Being satisfied with what you can realistically replicate is more worthwhile than creating spaghetti bowl of track.
Major yards are naturally the terminals for the trains that call there. Locomotive maintenance will be done there, but not in the same yard. They will be separated and will have their own lead tracks, towers and rules. In maintenance yards there will be blue flags all over the place. Not so in a freight yard. There will also be RIP tracks near by.
There is a "Yard" in Dickinson ND, only a few tracks. Most trains do not even stop here given that they are unit coal trains, unit hopper trains, unit oil trains, unit tank trains, and unit grain trains. Only the local turn operates out of Dickinson, and yes there is an fueling and sand station there for these locomotives as Dickinson used to be a crew chang point. But BNSF increased the trip distance from 100 miles to 200 miles, and dropped the smaller change points. This is why unit trains pass without stopping. Or at least without stopping for crew and fuel. The are frequently held her to allow opposing trains to clear the main line before departing again. BNSF seems to run trains in slugs of three in each direction, and of course still have to have layups enroute to allow other trains to pass.
The unit sand trains will not even make it to Dickinson, they will terminate here in Richardton. Road locomotives will pull directly into the Halliburton plant drop their cars, pick up the empties and scoot back out east where they came froom. I expect to see a lot of foreign or through power on these trains. The Haliburton plant has a six track RIP facility for the sand cars, what I do not know yet is if they will lease an entire fleet themselves or just receive whatever cars come in. I suspect they will lease their own cars since it seemse to me that they will store the sand in the trains until it needs to be transloaded to the transfer towers for loading the road trucks. Drayage can add up if you did not plan for that, and I can assure you, that with the quality that is going into this facility, the must have planned for everything. Why else have six tracks for car repair. This place is built to a higher standard than the main line. It has concrete ties and is well laid out. The mainline switches are automatic: controlled by Ft. Worth, the plant switches are manual, and a switch tender will have to drive around the property setting the turnouts as needed.
There do not seem to be any heavy maintenance facilities in our area.
ROAR
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Hi Big boy Forever
Well when you start taking tracks away from prototype yards they tend to start to not working .
In model railroads very few people have room to model prototype yards.
I figure that all loco facilities can be striped out of a yard because most model railroads have a seperate loco facility that can handle those.
That leaves what ever else is needed and this will vary quite conciderably
depending on what is needed at the location and what the "yard" is there to do
It can be anything from a couple of short dead ends, to taking up many miles of ground.
Bear in mind you must have un impeaded acsess to all areas of the yard for it to work properly.
arrivals and departures can just about be cut to one track.
then you nead at least a couple of tracks to sort out the train to where its going
a rip track.
Caboose track is optional depending on is loco close enough and do you even use cabooses.
Like I say it all depends on what the yard is for but I recon with some malice of forethought a working yard can be done with as little as two or three tracks.
Up to OMG that yard is massive
regards John
Thanks for all the great replies. I'm pondering over all the different ideas given.
I didn't know that 2 simple tracks could be considered a RR Yard.
I always thought a yard had to be at least one arrival/departure track, with a few sorting classification tracks, (stub or double-ended), refueling, water(for steam), and sand, with at least a bare bones shed for some mechanical maintenance, and maybe 1 or 2 storage tracks for cabooses or special needs cars like hoppers or whatever. I was thinking "minimal" in that sense, sort of a stripped down version of a big yard. "Stripped Down" seems to be the modus operandi' of model railroading in any case.
I am in a possible housing transition mode, with very little time for actually building anything, so this is at best a theoretical armchair conversation on my end, but hopefully would be of interest to anyone thinking or designing a model RR yard of any size. I have a resonable assortment of HO model RR items, cars, tracks, engines a few buildings, but really can't put it to use until my situation is resolved. Ideally one would want a huge yard with all the bells and whistles, if you had the space and money to do it, but who has that here? Probably not too many.
I always think of "Jeffrey" the fine person and brave board member here who passed away a while back, as an inspiriation, when I talked with him. He was in dire straights with his health issues, had very little income, and carried on his model railroading with limited resources, and achieved great results. I'm not saying I am in any situation like his, I'm just saying that you can achieve great results with minimal resources, and in this case, I'm bringing up the specific idea of a minimal yard.
Big Boy,
That's a thoughtful response. Thinking small does make things easier when you've got relatively limited space and resources. I didn't want to dismiss your idea of at least a small engine facility, just wnated to suggest that it's not an absolute requirement.
This is particularly so since the end of steam, which almost always need daily attention. Thus you had engine facilities even at small yards. With diesels, many small yards have either minimal or no engine faciliates, other than maybe a place where the fuel contractor can refuel a unit if it's away from its home base too long. So the need for engine facilities in a small yard depends somewhat on what era you model.
Of course, having more than 2 tracks is better. But oftentimes they can be recycled to other needs during ops, so long as you have need for an emoty track.
So contine to aspire to more varied yard space, but know that you can get a lot of satisfaction even with a few tracks.
Hi Big Boy Forever
Yes two simple tracks can be considered a yard.
Stripped down as you put it is also how the real railroads work as well.
They don't build anything they don't have to and don't lay any more track than they need to.
Which is why yard size changes over time both up and down.
Ours just don't get smaller after being made bigger.
Remember that the simpleist loco depot is on one track and eminently workable untill the line needs to service more loco's so what happens the depot becomes two tracks and so on.
Its exactly the same with yards.
So you are doing nothing that the real railroads don't do
Found some example photos of Dove Creek Yard in action, so here's another one of what works for me in this situation.
Big Boy Forever I have a resonable assortment of HO model RR items, cars, tracks, engines a few buildings,