LGB turning Chinese?

[Anonymous]

Hi All

I took some time to do the LGB annual survey, and was surprised to see that LGB are looking to "asia" (I wrongly or rightlfully assume "China") to make some of their product.

The inference is that they are already doing so.

does anyone know any more,?

Has anyone bought an "Asian" LGB (other that the Aster and similar specialist loco) Product?

Any comments or thoughts?

Regards

Nic

Adelaide Australia

[Curmudgeon]

Yes.
China.
For some time now.
Some issues with QC, but most folks don't seem to worry.
TOC

[Rene Schweitzer]

Nic,
Curmudgeon is correct. LGB isn't the only German hobby company to do so--firms such as Noch are doing the same.

[cacole]

I think every hobby manufacturer is turning to Chinese manufacturers -- even old reliables such as Athearn and Atlas. Marklin might still be of German manufacture, but I have heard that Hornby of England is looking eastward after they bought the remnants of Rivarossi and Lima.

Go into any well-stocked hobby shop and, regardless of scale, nearly everything you see on the shelves is going to be marked, "Made in China."

[vsmith]

All of my Toytrain stuff has a made in China stamp on it, still works as well as the Germie stuff.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Don't knock them, given some training and remove language barriers and they can be good engineers. I've seen some results of what chinese can do when they were running any kind of junk ships they could find. They could take old worn out junk and in time make it reliable again using handmade parts, etc.

Was the same with Koreans at one point. Junk ships that always broke down to becoming the foremost shipbuilder and innovators in the world! Just takes some training and talking!

No reason why they can't build quality stuff for us to play with!

[RhB_HJ]

Well ladies and gentlemen,

LGB has been producing in China for some time. Anyone who has a 2-4-0, have a look!
Nothing wrong with Chinese quality (usually), have a look at most of your electronic and computer gizmos around the house.
LGB's China production is a bit spotty at times i.e. they have QC problems. Case in point: the whole first batch of LGB 40840 RhB AlpineClassic Baggage cars had to be "refurbished" because the quality wasn't up to par. LGB just as soon not talk about that item.

Some of the problems have as much, if not more, to do with design. Design is still sourced in Germany, as is the toolmaking (last I heard in any case!). Some of the QC problems I put down to trying to shave too much off the manufacturing process. Sorry, there is no such as a virtual product running on real track, not as far as I know, anyway.

[Anonymous]

This is allnot true, LGB only manufacture in Nuremburg I am going to see their factory for myselff on 11 July. so there.

However it is not that well known that LGB are developing a plant in Iraq to be run by US servicemen and for the benefit of US servicemen.


Rgds Ian

[Bucksco]

One of the main reasons that any manufacturer turns to overseas manufacturing is so that they can stay "price competitive". Unfortunately most folks these days would rather spend less even if the quality is in question.
It's almost impossible to find anything that isn't manufactured in Asia these days. LGB and a few other manufacturers are trying to maintain a good balance of Domestic (Germany) and overseas production. It should be noted that most of the products that require more intense engineering and assembly are still built in Nurnberg.
One thing to keep in mind is the fact that LGB still does it's design engineering in Germany and the U.S. This keeps the product quality at a high level. There are manufacturers out there that source out a product from cradle to grave- in other words they depend on overseas factories to do all of the design work as well as tooling and assembly. This creates quality issues and usually big delays in getting products to market.

[jebouck]

I have quite a few LGB loco's in my collection, with only one made in China. (So far).
It is the New Orleans Streetcar. Basically the quality is there except for one (or two) things. The motor blocks are not up to my LGB expectations. It is the first powered LGB model I own out of 25 or so that the wheels "wobble" and there is a lot more gear noise than any other unit. I noticed right out of the box on its maiden voyage as it "wobbled" down the track due to bent axles. On both motor blocks.[:(!][:(!]
Also, the doors will not stay shut, possibly due to this vibration.[V][V]
It was definately not up to the precision LGB products I have know since my first purchase in 1986.
I have a few pieces of rolling stock made in China. They are OK, but the plastic is a little more brittle than the German models I have. And it is not the same plastic, no matter what any one tells me. It even smells different when you cut, sand or grind on it.
jb

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bucksco

One of the main reasons that any manufacturer turns to overseas manufacturing is so that they can stay "price competitive". Unfortunately most folks these days would rather spend less even if the quality is in question.
It's almost impossible to find anything that isn't manufactured in Asia these days. LGB and a few other manufacturers are trying to maintain a good balance of Domestic (Germany) and overseas production. It should be noted that most of the products that require more intense engineering and assembly are still built in Nurnberg.
One thing to keep in mind is the fact that LGB still does it's design engineering in Germany and the U.S. This keeps the product quality at a high level. There are manufacturers out there that source out a product from cradle to grave- in other words they depend on overseas factories to do all of the design work as well as tooling and assembly. This creates quality issues and usually big delays in getting products to market.

Dear Bucksco,

To give the forum participants a better appreciation of your relation to LGBoA and EPL, perhaps you could mention that you're Marketing Manager at LGBoA. That is if my memory serves correctly. [;)][:)]

That would also put your comments in the appropriate light. Just a thought, eh![;)][:)]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

This is allnot true, LGB only manufacture in Nuremburg I am going to see their factory for myselff on 11 July. so there.

However it is not that well known that LGB are developing a plant in Iraq to be run by US servicemen and for the benefit of US servicemen.


Rgds Ian

Hey Ian,

Make sure you're over the jetlag, don't overindulge in "Knödel" (dumplings) and/or beer. And enjoy the walk!
Since you go for the plant tour perhaps you could arrange ahead to have the Massoth expert walk along with you and you can explain your trials and tribulations with the MTS system to him. May need two go-arounds to get it all "tabulated".

If by chance you go to Vienna, make sure you drop by at ZIMO to see, and be shown, what a real DCC system delivers.

[markn]

I do not have any pre or post China LGBs (and may never given this thread) but I have noticed similar issue with tools and other items. As they learn more about capitalism, they are drawn to the "dark side of the force" as well-cut cost, increase production, make more profit-in some cases the grades of steel, aluminum, and plastic are reduced to save $$$ -that's great and why Bachmanns and most of our clothes are so inexpensive-I know that and expect it. But if and when I pop big bucks for LGB, I expect the best materials,close tolerance machining, and top quality fit and finish. Those of you that are buying LGB now-keep the heat on LGB and complain about the least imperfection, their costs are lower-did they pass the savings on to you? or just the reduced quality.....otherwise none of us have a reason to aspire to own a LGB (or Rolex,Cadillac, Mercedes, etc etc)

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by markn

I do not have any pre or post China LGBs (and may never given this thread) but I have noticed similar issue with tools and other items. As they learn more about capitalism, they are drawn to the "dark side of the force" as well-cut cost, increase production, make more profit-in some cases the grades of steel, aluminum, and plastic are reduced to save $$$ -that's great and why Bachmanns and most of our clothes are so inexpensive-I know that and expect it. But if and when I pop big bucks for LGB, I expect the best materials,close tolerance machining, and top quality fit and finish. Those of you that are buying LGB now-keep the heat on LGB and complain about the least imperfection, their costs are lower-did they pass the savings on to you? or just the reduced quality.....otherwise none of us have a reason to aspire to own a LGB (or Rolex,Cadillac, Mercedes, etc etc)

Hi there,

Good points. As a frequent participants on German fora, I can assure you that is precisely the tack the German LGB buyers take. "Made in China" = where is the lowered price!?!

And yes, those who keep close taps mention the "sub-standard" items.
My biggest beef? Those crummy plastic wheels! They get worse as we go and were none too good when they started.

[Anonymous]

Thanks to everyone who has posted.

I am really grateful for your comments and thoughts. I thought there may have been one or two responses.

It is hard to not buy Chinese made items, so many things are. They are improving quality, just as the Japanese did when they started their great post war industrialisation.

I suppose I am being very altruistic, as I try wherever possible to not buy things made in China for a variety of ethical and industrial reasons.

It annoys me that manufacturers off shore work on the premise product will be cheaper, but that the savings for us at the cash register are minimal, and the social costs so great.

I see in one of our local papers that the Chinese government is imposing levies on certain products that are exported, in particular textiles. This will hurt my country, as the textiles industry was shipped out years ago.

Anyway - this ain't the place to rave

Undoubtedly, I will probably burn the first bit of LGB that I aquire that is made in China!

The street car (base model) is retailing for US600 here in Oz.

Thanks and regards

Nic

(living next door to a now defunct textile mill)
Adelaide, Australia

[Bucksco]

"Dear Bucksco,

To give the forum participants a better appreciation of your relation to LGBoA and EPL, perhaps you could mention that you're Marketing Manager at LGBoA. That is if my memory serves correctly.

That would also put your comments in the appropriate light. Just a thought, eh!"

Hj,
Perhaps I'm commenting in my spare time,eh?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mt14l

Hi All

I took some time to do the LGB annual survey, and was surprised to see that LGB are looking to "asia" (I wrongly or rightlfully assume "China") to make some of their product.

The inference is that they are already doing so.

does anyone know any more,?

Has anyone bought an "Asian" LGB (other that the Aster and similar specialist loco) Product?

Any comments or thoughts?

Regards

Nic

Adelaide Australia

Mao wait just one minute!!!! Well, political and economic issue aside...Careful, what becomes of your economy!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bucksco

One of the main reasons that any manufacturer turns to overseas manufacturing is so that they can stay "price competitive". Unfortunately most folks these days would rather spend less even if the quality is in question.
It's almost impossible to find anything that isn't manufactured in Asia these days. LGB and a few other manufacturers are trying to maintain a good balance of Domestic (Germany) and overseas production. It should be noted that most of the products that require more intense engineering and assembly are still built in Nurnberg.
One thing to keep in mind is the fact that LGB still does it's design engineering in Germany and the U.S. This keeps the product quality at a high level. There are manufacturers out there that source out a product from cradle to grave- in other words they depend on overseas factories to do all of the design work as well as tooling and assembly. This creates quality issues and usually big delays in getting products to market.

Wage Slave Labor? Does it not produce the most "price competitive" product? [V] Well, I guess I won't be ordering those LGB trucks I was going to use on the tenders of my "Sow's Ears." Oppsss....I guess those were made in Hong Kong...

PRECARIOUS isn't it!!! Well, now on to religion...

(p.s. lots of political satire in this post)

Capt Carrales

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bucksco

Hj,
Perhaps I'm commenting in my spare time,eh?

Hi Jack,

That's possible, but did you take off your LGBoA Marketing Manager hat?

QUOTE: One thing to keep in mind is the fact that LGB still does it's design engineering in Germany and the U.S. This keeps the product quality at a high level. There are manufacturers out there that source out a product from cradle to grave- in other words they depend on overseas factories to do all of the design work as well as tooling and assembly. This creates quality issues and usually big delays in getting products to market.

Wellllllllllll, let's see now. The trucks of the NO streetcar were designed in ...Germany? Complete with "nice wobble" and other "features". Same for the doors that won't stay shut?

I've written a review of the LGB 40880 RhB Fb gondola (*** please note: I'm an independent reviewer of RhB rolling stock for certain magazines, one German, one American. Independent means I pay full fare for the review items and they are obtained from various dealers in the USA and Canada ***) and some of the errors, omissions and commissions are attributable to the design, not the manufacturing process.

Since I also translate the German mag into English you can download yourself a preview-copy of issue 3/2005 http://www.easternmountainmodels.com/eng/html/gartenbahnprofi.html which has a comparative review of US 50+ft boxcars from the three mfgs, everyone of them made in China, with dissimilar results.
*** Please note: Our product line (Eastern Mountain Models Ltd.) has no overlap with the LGB product line, furthermore we produce items from Z to LargeScale.***

[Bucksco]

One thing I wil not do is get involved in forum politics concerning manufacturers (who's trains are better).
I do however believe it is neccesary to chime in from time to time when I can contribute something positive (I will not get into negative squabbling that does nothing more than hurt others). MY opinions are MY opinions it just so happens that I work for a model train manufacturer and I can sometimes shed some light on certain subjects.
I feel that a positive outlook will always produce better results than negative attitudes!

[:)]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bucksco

One thing I wil not do is get involved in forum politics concerning manufacturers (who's trains are better).
I do however believe it is neccesary to chime in from time to time when I can contribute something positive (I will not get into negative squabbling that does nothing more than hurt others). MY opinions are MY opinions it just so happens that I work for a model train manufacturer and I can sometimes shed some light on certain subjects.
I feel that a positive outlook will always produce better results than negative attitudes!

[:)]

You're right!

As a matter of fact I delight in reviewing excellent products, regardless of who made them. OTOH I don't pull punches when things are not up to par and I know that every mfg has QC problems at one time or other.
But I find it peculiar to mention that some mfgs farm out the whole process to "overseas", my experience in the manufacturing field has been that product out of Asia i.e. Japan, Korea etc. is as good as the German product. Maybe not as sophisticated, yet, but good.
But that's just my experience!

Glad to see you added to your profile! [;)][:)]

[Anonymous]

It's true - I did a double-take when I saw the printing "Made in China" on the end of the box for my 40840 Alpine Classic baggage car (interested to read about the problems with the first batch - bought mine in March this year and it's fine - all assembled as well as their German-built stuff). I agree it's sad to see another manufacturer moving jobs overseas, but from what I've heard it's more to do with a lack of production capacity at the Nuremburg plant than anything else. Price of this item would probably have been far higher if made in Germany judging by other similar-sized items. I agree the plastic wheels are a disgrace on a model of this price - it'll have ball-bearing wheelsets and interior lighting fitted as soon as funds allow.

[Bucksco]

I previously worked for an O scale manufacturer who sourced all of thier work to Korea and China. Problems would inevitably arise because of a lack of direct communication.
Unless you have people stationed at the manufacturing point it is difficult to have total control over the design and manufacturing process. It also depends on the factory. If they do not have experience building similar products it can be a slow learning curve.
I've worked in the toy industry for some 25 years and when it comes to outsourcing work I've always adhered to the philosophy that you need to send "the most complete engineering package possible" to the vendor. It astounds me that some manufacturers are comfortable sending a photo and a drawing of a prototype to a factory and then allowing the product to be designed sight unseen (and yes this does happen more often than not!)
Sometimes it takes time to get all of your ducks in a row but once you do it is much smoother sailing.

[Anonymous]

Hey HJ mate what is a "Massoth" and do you know the meaning of the word "Preussische" I have it on the side of one of my new box cars and it isn't in my German English dictionary.

As far as the MTS system is concerned, i never had any problems with it nor have i had even a single glitch for about a year now, cant speeak highly enough of it.

I have come to the conclusion that i only had trouble with the people involved; tellers of porkers and technically incompetent. I took my LGB dealer to court and then got all my stuff back not a single problem since.

However that is not entirely true, I had to replace a decoder and now I am having troube adjusting the 2nd and 3 rd registers on my ICE train andi think it is my universal remote causing it; do you or anyone else have an opinion?


Rgds ian

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Hey HJ mate what is a "Massoth" and do you know the meaning of the word "Preussische" I have it on the side of one of my new box cars and it isn't in my German English dictionary.

As far as the MTS system is concerned, i never had any problems with it nor have i had even a single glitch for about a year now, cant speeak highly enough of it.

I have come to the conclusion that i only had trouble with the people involved; tellers of porkers and technically incompetent. I took my LGB dealer to court and then got all my stuff back not a single problem since.

However that is not entirely true, I had to replace a decoder and now I am having troube adjusting the 2nd and 3 rd registers on my ICE train andi think it is my universal remote causing it; do you or anyone else have an opinion?


Rgds ian

Hi Ian,

Massoth is the OEM for the LGB MTS, you should relate your trials and tribulations anyway, so they appreciate that Oz isn't around the next corner and the importer/dealer better know what he's talking about! Of course just HJ's opinion!

Preussische = prussian

What type of decoder is in the ICE? Part # ver.#

[bobgrosh]

I have a few questions for Jack Lynch (Bucksco) and HJ.

A long time ago I discovered that LGB trains (cars) derailed far less often than other brands. There are two features on LGB cars that contribute to their reliability.

FIRST:
The bolster on one end of an LGB car allows the truck to rock from end to end but not side to side. The truck at that end prevents the car from wobbling sided to side. At the other end of the car, the bolster allows the truck to rock side to side as well as end to end. This allows the wheels to stay in contact with the track even if the track had a twist in it over the length of the car.

SECOND:
The side frames of the trucks attach to the cross member with a single screw. On one side, the screw threads into a rectangular block so the side frame can not twist relative to the cross member. On the other side, the screw threads into a trapezoidal block, the hole in the side frame is elongated and the screw head is not tight against the side frame. This allows the side frame to rock so that all four wheels maintain contact with the track even if the track is uneven.

I have found LGB's method of mounting the trucks and truck side fames to be far superior to the methods used by other manufactures. I have bought LGB trucks and wheels for all my other brands of cars. I also modify one bolster on those cars to make them work like LGB's.

I recently rebuilt my railroad. While I was in the process of leveling the track, I pulled several long trains to test my progress. If one car repeatedly derailed , I set it aside until I got the track closer to being properly ballasted. To my horror I discovered that all of my newest LGB American style ( China built) boxcars were the ones that consistently derailed.

Upon close examination, the reason was quickly evident. LGB no longer incorporated the two features I outlined above. Both bolsters maintain the trucks flat to the body side to side, and the truck side frames are rigidly mounted.

The changes made on the Chinese versions of the LGB car do not in any way change the cost of producing the car. The changes are only evidenced by the shapes of two parts.

If the engineering was indeed done in Germany, then why did the engineers abandon a proven design? If the engineering was done in China, then why didn't LGB do a quality control inspection before producing and shipping these defective cars?

I now find that I have to buy new LGB trucks for all the new LGB China made cars. This has wiped out any cost advantage of having the cars made in China in the first place. It also destroys the image of quality that LGB has always stood for.

Will LGB provide free replacement trucks and underbodies if I return these defective cars to LGB?

B0B GR0SH

[RhB_HJ]

Hi Bob,

What you describe is the three point system, that's what any respectable piece of rolling stock should have.

You can try to get some remedy from LGBoA, but given the complaint, I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Curmudgeon]

HJ, that's only part of it. Part of what he describes is "equalized trucks", and you cannot make a "blanket statement" about them ALL having had them.
Ain't so.
Most of my USA Prototype LGB does NOT have it. Only the latest additions (like 2 low-side gons) have it.
Possibly the "old" tooling was sent to China.
I am apalled, however, as I have 1400 feet of railroad, rough cross-levelled, NO derailments EXCEPT for one LGB euro car.
Mostly Bachmann, with USA, Delton and LGB mixed for the rest.
Am I ever going to see that prototype back for evaluation?
TOC

[bobgrosh]

I'm not looking for a remedy from LGBoA. I',ve learned to expect very little help from that bunch. I already picked up 10 sets of trucks and have 4 more sets on order.

I do believe that pointing this sort of errors out to LGB in Germany might produce some simple changes that would drastically improve the LGB products. Perhaps the next new cars from LGB will actually stay on the tracks the way all the older cars did. I for one will be overjoyed if I don't have to go through the hassle of ordering replacement trucks for new cars.
B0B

[Curmudgeon]

You missed the last line.

BTW, if you are using stock wheels, you have to be out of level in 12" by about 1/4" to have them derail for that reason.

Gauge okay?
TOC