LGB turning Chinese?

[Anonymous]

If my father buys two tram models,payingLGB prices.What is he paying for?
Superior plastic maybe.
He is not paying for superior electrical contacts.I had to do that for LGB!
If the models are built in China are the same plastic formulas used?
I think not.It seems like a usual stitch up to me.Cheap labour,cheap materials,same LGB prices.

[Bucksco]

Let's not jump to conclusions now!

[Anonymous]

Oh dear.
LGB made in China with a reduced quality control.My Dad is going to go bat***
It's a shame.Usually with LGB you chuck it in the garden and let it cope!
Is this going to change?

[Bucksco]

"LGB really sat twiddling their thumbs with the advent of a timed-station-stop module for analog users. How many years did I hear people say during the holidays " I need a train to slow down and stop while another one goes" ??"

Tom,
LGB's Jumbo transformer can be used to accompli***his.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by LGBFan123

[
Enjoyed your comments. When I give my opinion I bet there are probably some who think that, to me, LGB can do no wrong. That is untrue. LGB has made some big no-no's in the past. Even before the China outsourcing, I had passenger cars with shabby paint jobs--and these were bought brand new from retailers. The dual-paint schemes are much more precise now than in the 1980s, there is no bleeding and the liveries (lettering,etc.) is much more prototypical for both Euro and American stock. For the most part with locos and rolling stock, I think LGB is improving in quality.

My above comments may illicit a bunch of flamed responses, so I will add that no, I have not purchased a US Trolley (on a German themed pike, c'mon!??) nor have run any of the new American stock on my tracks (although my brother has a growing US-themed LGB collection and so far we like the stuff he's purchased running on his rails). My comments on the fact that LGB seems to be improving in quality is from my own purchases, namely new European rolling stock. I do have one issue with a newer Euro-style Christmas car, being that the side gates and landing don't mesh well like the older units, and this car did not come with Euro buffers or buffer mounts. I assume they kept the mounts off so that American-users can easily hook knuckle couplers to it for their pleasure.

Unfortunately, I no longer have the box to see if it came from China or from Germany!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobgrosh

TP
I agree about the little American 2-4-0.

I have a Santa Fe 2-4-0 from a starter set. I sometimes use it to check track work and new rolling stock. Sometimes I leave it running with ten or more cars, day and night.

Twice I forgot to shut everything down and returned from a week long business trip to find it still going. I love sitting on the back porch during a heavy rainstorm and watching it run in the rain . It lasted 5 years in heavy use every weekend. I finally wore out a gear in it, but that has finally been replaced and it is as good as new.

I have a Southern 2-4-0 with sound also. Unfortunately, a hole in the weight was drilled a little off center. That caused the circuit board to burn out the first day I got it when I turned on the smoke generator, so the Southern 2-4-0 is currently sidelined. I have no doubt that when I get a new board and weight, it will perform as well as the one from the set. Based on the set version, the little 2-4-0 is a strong contender with the old Stainz as far as reliability goes.

I do have a dozen or so locos with other brand names on them. They are all relegated to the shelves. I have about 17 LGB locos and from now on it will be only LGB locos for me from now on. But, I might try fitting LGB F7 motor blocks in my Southern Crescent Aristo AB set and a mogul block in an Annie.

Now if more people ran the little LGB field locos, maybe we could get LGB to look at the serious engineering boo-boo in that one. I miss the cute little buggers.

B0B

Bob,

Enjoyed your comments. When I give my opinion I bet there are probably some who think that, to me, LGB can do no wrong. That is untrue. LGB has made some big no-no's in the past. Even before the China outsourcing, I had passenger cars with shabby paint jobs--and these were bought brand new from retailers. The dual-paint schemes are much more precise now than in the 1980s, there is no bleeding and the liveries (lettering,etc.) is much more prototypical for both Euro and American stock. For the most part with locos and rolling stock, I think LGB is improving in quality.

LGB really sat twiddling their thumbs with the advent of a timed-station-stop module for analog users. How many years did I hear people say during the holidays " I need a train to slow down and stop while another one goes" ??
And yet, they still do not offer such a unit for analog users (they offered a timer + contact box in the mid-90s but that has been discontinued for years, and even that was a poor design because it did not have momentum and braking built-in).

Also, a dual=reverse loop set that is automated has been sorely missing from the program. LGB shouldn't expect everyone in their 30 year customer base to jump on board the DIGITAL route right away! It is very expensive to convert old locos to digital, much of a hassle too. I think LGB offering pre-installed decoders is great (as long as they are better than the cheesy "Type II" offering!) True, digital offers some hi=tech fun (my most enjoyable feature is the Back-EMF so far) but I don't expect the majority of "veteran LGBers" to go out and convert their extensive loco collection over to the new technology for at least another 10 years. I am one holding out (I have tried the digital route but until I am willing to make a significant (read as :$1200) investment I can pretty much accomplish everything in analog for my modest sized pike).

Hmmm...sorry to get off topic! Where was I..oh yes, I was about to say that many LGBers like the portability of LGB (the dreaded "R1" crowd) and I don't see these people wanting to invest in MTS but still wanting to have realistic slow-motion and station stopping options. I really believe there is still a LGB market for analog devices. The irony is, if you have a new LGB decoder-equipped loco and the old discontinued timer-box, you could have realistic braking and momentum stops. But I like my old LGB locos, I won't part with the ones I currently own, and I don't see that as enough reason to "upgrade" to a new version of the same loco (yet, anyway!)..mainly because I know that my older locos on the market won't make enough $$ to buy the replacement!

Have fun with that 2-4-0, and I hope you get the other one back working!.

Regards,

Tom M.

[bobgrosh]

John

LGB has a PDF about their quality, you can read it here;
http://www.lgb.de/pdf/qualitye.pdf

Go to page 15 and you will find this quote:

QUOTE: ...LGB trains are equipped with seven-pole, ball-bearing “Bühler”
motors, the equivalent of a modern, fuel-injected V-8.

Yet, I have nearly a dozen LGB locos that came with cheap FIVE pole core-less can motors that do NOT have ball bearings or even the cast ends shown on that page. The motors in those LGB locos appear to be exactly identical to motors I found in a $19.95 RC car at Radio Shack. In fact I've bought several of the cars to get replacement motors for my LGB locos when they burned out.

Of course, at the bottom of every page in that document you will also find:

QUOTE: Products, specifications and availability dates are subject to change
without notice.

[John Busby]

Hi all
If I ever get one carp Made in China LGB wagon or locomotive or track componant LGB can Kiss My Custom Good Bye.
I get charged Rolls Royce Prices I demand a Rolls Royce Quality Product regardles of where the product is made.
So all I can say is the Quality Control had better be to the
Rolls Royce standard.
Unfortunatly I have heard the new motor is not as good as the old one and problems with things wearing out with more to do with design change for cheap manufacture rather than maintaining or improving the quality of the product I hope this is not true.
regards John

[bobgrosh]

Jack, actually, That was the answer I was looking for.

Great!

Thanks for following up.

It would be nice if someone in the product and technical development could visit this forum too. I suppose the language barrier is the problem.

I really appreciate your passing this type of info along. Even if they don't correct the designs on those cars, at least they won't repeat the same mistakes on the next new product.

B0B GR0SH

[Bucksco]

Bob,
I would love to give you the answer you want to hear but I don't think you'll like the answers I was given.
The newer US style boxcars were designed in Nurnberg. The tooling was later sent overseas for production (nothing was changed). The information you supplied has been sent on to the "proper authorities". I can't guarantee that future models will be changed but I've sent the information on. I am the marketing manager not the director of product and technical development- but the info was forwarded to him.
Hopefully you concerns will be addressed in future models.

[bobgrosh]

I sure hoped that Jack Lynch would explain why the three point suspension was abandoned, or why the trucks are so stiff. Is he going to be like the LGBoA repair center and just let the subject drop.
I never heard why they changed away from stainless steel ball bearing to the ones that rust up solid after the first rain either.
Is there some way to report this stuff direct to the engineers and QC people in Germany?

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by LGBFan123

My .02 is that the little 2-4-0 Steam engine in the new LGB American sets is one loveable, well-running, chunky adorable toy! And this is one of the LGB premier China products.

Some RhB stock, as well as many "standard gauge" mainline USA freight wagons from LGB are now made in China. I have seen many of these, and even by touch, they seem very well constructed. No, i did not hold the RhB baggage wagon--never hit the store shelves here in CA. The new Rhb freight wagons have a great amount more detail than there previous "German made" counterparts.

There have been some QC issues for sure, but LGB is a company determined to make trains that will be in your family for generations, not for one Christmas and then be forgotten when it breaks--thus I believe that any QC issues with their Asia partners will be smoothly corrected. Note that D. Buffington recently said that 80+% of LGB is still Made in Nurnberg, Germany.

When there is a QC issue, yes, it may mean the demise of quality for a firm, but when you are talking about Lehmann Patenwerk--a company that does not believe in the overnight-get-rich-quick from a shabby product that breaks---a company dedicated to its customer base---you shouldn't worry in the long run!

Regards,

TP Metzger

Hey Tom, [:o)][;)]

Make sure Dave B gets a copy of your testimonial! [;)][:p][;)]

Bob Grosh may quibble on a point or two, given his experience with the FRR engines.
And yes Sir, there were a few problems with some of the 2-4-0 steamers; one of them being incorrect mesh on the gearing which resulted in stripped gears.

The samples of this problem I saw were typical QC SNAFUs!

Some of those problems I file in the "what were they thinking category?"

[bobgrosh]

TP
I agree about the little American 2-4-0.

I have a Santa Fe 2-4-0 from a starter set. I sometimes use it to check track work and new rolling stock. Sometimes I leave it running with ten or more cars, day and night.

Twice I forgot to shut everything down and returned from a week long business trip to find it still going. I love sitting on the back porch during a heavy rainstorm and watching it run in the rain . It lasted 5 years in heavy use every weekend. I finally wore out a gear in it, but that has finally been replaced and it is as good as new.

I have a Southern 2-4-0 with sound also. Unfortunately, a hole in the weight was drilled a little off center. That caused the circuit board to burn out the first day I got it when I turned on the smoke generator, so the Southern 2-4-0 is currently sidelined. I have no doubt that when I get a new board and weight, it will perform as well as the one from the set. Based on the set version, the little 2-4-0 is a strong contender with the old Stainz as far as reliability goes.

I do have a dozen or so locos with other brand names on them. They are all relegated to the shelves. I have about 17 LGB locos and from now on it will be only LGB locos for me from now on. But, I might try fitting LGB F7 motor blocks in my Southern Crescent Aristo AB set and a mogul block in an Annie.

Now if more people ran the little LGB field locos, maybe we could get LGB to look at the serious engineering boo-boo in that one. I miss the cute little buggers.

B0B

[Anonymous]

My .02 is that the little 2-4-0 Steam engine in the new LGB American sets is one loveable, well-running, chunky adorable toy! And this is one of the LGB premier China products.

Some RhB stock, as well as many "standard gauge" mainline USA freight wagons from LGB are now made in China. I have seen many of these, and even by touch, they seem very well constructed. No, i did not hold the RhB baggage wagon--never hit the store shelves here in CA. The new Rhb freight wagons have a great amount more detail than there previous "German made" counterparts.

There have been some QC issues for sure, but LGB is a company determined to make trains that will be in your family for generations, not for one Christmas and then be forgotten when it breaks--thus I believe that any QC issues with their Asia partners will be smoothly corrected. Note that D. Buffington recently said that 80+% of LGB is still Made in Nurnberg, Germany.

When there is a QC issue, yes, it may mean the demise of quality for a firm, but when you are talking about Lehmann Patenwerk--a company that does not believe in the overnight-get-rich-quick from a shabby product that breaks---a company dedicated to its customer base---you shouldn't worry in the long run!

Regards,

TP Metzger

[bobgrosh]

Hi Jack
Thanks for showing an interest in this.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bucksco

Which cars are being referred to? LGB 's 4091 series of American style 40 foot boxcars have never been changed.

I'm comparing just about any older 4 axle freight. For example the 43682 D&RGW Sheep Sound Car tracks very well.



It seldom derails. It has one truck that rocks side to side and one that does not. The trucks have an elongated mounting hole on one side that keeps the wheels in contact with the railhead when the track is uneven or if there is a foreign object (if not too big) on the track..

Here are three pictures of my 43682 car.

This is an example of an LGB car that runs great.











How Lets compare this to one of the new lower cost LGB cars, I think these cars were made in China, but I'm not sure.

Like the 47916 Southern Boxcar



or the 45913 Santa Fe Super Chief Boxcar, Brown





Here are two pictures of one of my Santa Fe boxcars. The Southern boxcars are the same.

This car is very prone to derailing.

First the truck. It is stiff. If one wheel is lifted by debris, the other wheel will lift too.



Note that all the truck parts have en entirely new design.

Now the underbody.





Notice the humps to the left and right of the center mounting post. They let the trucks rock front to back but not sided to side. On these new cars, both ends are of this design. The cars do not have a three point suspension and will derail, (especially on curves) much more easily than the older design shown above.

Any further information about this problem would be appreciated.

Can we expect this to be resolved in future production runs?
B0B

[Bucksco]

Which cars are being referred to? LGB 's 4091 series of American style 40 foot boxcars have never been changed.

[Curmudgeon]

Original box is not important.
Just an old one I had laying around.
Any box will do.
TOC

[bobgrosh]

Sorry TOC - We posted at the same time and I missed your post entirely.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

You missed the last line.

BTW, if you are using stock wheels, you have to be out of level in 12" by about 1/4" to have them derail for that reason.

Gauge okay?
TOC

My track is level enough that there is no way it would be out 1/4" in 12". I can push or pull 20 cars at any speed for hours without a derailment. 

UNTIL - I hit an errant pine needle or one of those little worm things that the pines down here drop. Then cars with a three point suspension and equalized trucks will ride over the object without lifting another wheel high enough to allow it to jump the rail on a curve. But, hit something like that with one of the new cars on a curve is asking for trouble. There is no way to avoid these things. Most of the trees belong to my neighbors.

Checked the gauge with calipers. No problem there on new cars.

Oh, I boxed the loco for shipment and discovered I had had packed it without the original box. Now it's sitting in my office in Alabama, 200 miles away. When I go there next week, I'll be sure to get it on it's way. Thanks so much for the loan of it. I really appreciate it. Sorry for the delay.
B0B

[Curmudgeon]

You missed the last line.

BTW, if you are using stock wheels, you have to be out of level in 12" by about 1/4" to have them derail for that reason.

Gauge okay?
TOC

[bobgrosh]

I'm not looking for a remedy from LGBoA. I',ve learned to expect very little help from that bunch. I already picked up 10 sets of trucks and have 4 more sets on order.

I do believe that pointing this sort of errors out to LGB in Germany might produce some simple changes that would drastically improve the LGB products. Perhaps the next new cars from LGB will actually stay on the tracks the way all the older cars did. I for one will be overjoyed if I don't have to go through the hassle of ordering replacement trucks for new cars.
B0B

[Curmudgeon]

HJ, that's only part of it. Part of what he describes is "equalized trucks", and you cannot make a "blanket statement" about them ALL having had them.
Ain't so.
Most of my USA Prototype LGB does NOT have it. Only the latest additions (like 2 low-side gons) have it.
Possibly the "old" tooling was sent to China.
I am apalled, however, as I have 1400 feet of railroad, rough cross-levelled, NO derailments EXCEPT for one LGB euro car.
Mostly Bachmann, with USA, Delton and LGB mixed for the rest.
Am I ever going to see that prototype back for evaluation?
TOC

[RhB_HJ]

Hi Bob,

What you describe is the three point system, that's what any respectable piece of rolling stock should have.

You can try to get some remedy from LGBoA, but given the complaint, I wouldn't hold my breath.

[bobgrosh]

I have a few questions for Jack Lynch (Bucksco) and HJ.

A long time ago I discovered that LGB trains (cars) derailed far less often than other brands. There are two features on LGB cars that contribute to their reliability.

FIRST:
The bolster on one end of an LGB car allows the truck to rock from end to end but not side to side. The truck at that end prevents the car from wobbling sided to side. At the other end of the car, the bolster allows the truck to rock side to side as well as end to end. This allows the wheels to stay in contact with the track even if the track had a twist in it over the length of the car.

SECOND:
The side frames of the trucks attach to the cross member with a single screw. On one side, the screw threads into a rectangular block so the side frame can not twist relative to the cross member. On the other side, the screw threads into a trapezoidal block, the hole in the side frame is elongated and the screw head is not tight against the side frame. This allows the side frame to rock so that all four wheels maintain contact with the track even if the track is uneven.

I have found LGB's method of mounting the trucks and truck side fames to be far superior to the methods used by other manufactures. I have bought LGB trucks and wheels for all my other brands of cars. I also modify one bolster on those cars to make them work like LGB's.

I recently rebuilt my railroad. While I was in the process of leveling the track, I pulled several long trains to test my progress. If one car repeatedly derailed , I set it aside until I got the track closer to being properly ballasted. To my horror I discovered that all of my newest LGB American style ( China built) boxcars were the ones that consistently derailed.

Upon close examination, the reason was quickly evident. LGB no longer incorporated the two features I outlined above. Both bolsters maintain the trucks flat to the body side to side, and the truck side frames are rigidly mounted.

The changes made on the Chinese versions of the LGB car do not in any way change the cost of producing the car. The changes are only evidenced by the shapes of two parts.

If the engineering was indeed done in Germany, then why did the engineers abandon a proven design? If the engineering was done in China, then why didn't LGB do a quality control inspection before producing and shipping these defective cars?

I now find that I have to buy new LGB trucks for all the new LGB China made cars. This has wiped out any cost advantage of having the cars made in China in the first place. It also destroys the image of quality that LGB has always stood for.

Will LGB provide free replacement trucks and underbodies if I return these defective cars to LGB?

B0B GR0SH

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Hey HJ mate what is a "Massoth" and do you know the meaning of the word "Preussische" I have it on the side of one of my new box cars and it isn't in my German English dictionary.

As far as the MTS system is concerned, i never had any problems with it nor have i had even a single glitch for about a year now, cant speeak highly enough of it.

I have come to the conclusion that i only had trouble with the people involved; tellers of porkers and technically incompetent. I took my LGB dealer to court and then got all my stuff back not a single problem since.

However that is not entirely true, I had to replace a decoder and now I am having troube adjusting the 2nd and 3 rd registers on my ICE train andi think it is my universal remote causing it; do you or anyone else have an opinion?


Rgds ian

Hi Ian,

Massoth is the OEM for the LGB MTS, you should relate your trials and tribulations anyway, so they appreciate that Oz isn't around the next corner and the importer/dealer better know what he's talking about! Of course just HJ's opinion!

Preussische = prussian

What type of decoder is in the ICE? Part # ver.#

[Anonymous]

Hey HJ mate what is a "Massoth" and do you know the meaning of the word "Preussische" I have it on the side of one of my new box cars and it isn't in my German English dictionary.

As far as the MTS system is concerned, i never had any problems with it nor have i had even a single glitch for about a year now, cant speeak highly enough of it.

I have come to the conclusion that i only had trouble with the people involved; tellers of porkers and technically incompetent. I took my LGB dealer to court and then got all my stuff back not a single problem since.

However that is not entirely true, I had to replace a decoder and now I am having troube adjusting the 2nd and 3 rd registers on my ICE train andi think it is my universal remote causing it; do you or anyone else have an opinion?


Rgds ian

[Bucksco]

I previously worked for an O scale manufacturer who sourced all of thier work to Korea and China. Problems would inevitably arise because of a lack of direct communication.
Unless you have people stationed at the manufacturing point it is difficult to have total control over the design and manufacturing process. It also depends on the factory. If they do not have experience building similar products it can be a slow learning curve.
I've worked in the toy industry for some 25 years and when it comes to outsourcing work I've always adhered to the philosophy that you need to send "the most complete engineering package possible" to the vendor. It astounds me that some manufacturers are comfortable sending a photo and a drawing of a prototype to a factory and then allowing the product to be designed sight unseen (and yes this does happen more often than not!)
Sometimes it takes time to get all of your ducks in a row but once you do it is much smoother sailing.

[Anonymous]

It's true - I did a double-take when I saw the printing "Made in China" on the end of the box for my 40840 Alpine Classic baggage car (interested to read about the problems with the first batch - bought mine in March this year and it's fine - all assembled as well as their German-built stuff). I agree it's sad to see another manufacturer moving jobs overseas, but from what I've heard it's more to do with a lack of production capacity at the Nuremburg plant than anything else. Price of this item would probably have been far higher if made in Germany judging by other similar-sized items. I agree the plastic wheels are a disgrace on a model of this price - it'll have ball-bearing wheelsets and interior lighting fitted as soon as funds allow.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bucksco

One thing I wil not do is get involved in forum politics concerning manufacturers (who's trains are better).
I do however believe it is neccesary to chime in from time to time when I can contribute something positive (I will not get into negative squabbling that does nothing more than hurt others). MY opinions are MY opinions it just so happens that I work for a model train manufacturer and I can sometimes shed some light on certain subjects.
I feel that a positive outlook will always produce better results than negative attitudes!

[:)]

You're right!

As a matter of fact I delight in reviewing excellent products, regardless of who made them. OTOH I don't pull punches when things are not up to par and I know that every mfg has QC problems at one time or other.
But I find it peculiar to mention that some mfgs farm out the whole process to "overseas", my experience in the manufacturing field has been that product out of Asia i.e. Japan, Korea etc. is as good as the German product. Maybe not as sophisticated, yet, but good.
But that's just my experience!

Glad to see you added to your profile! [;)][:)]

[Bucksco]

One thing I wil not do is get involved in forum politics concerning manufacturers (who's trains are better).
I do however believe it is neccesary to chime in from time to time when I can contribute something positive (I will not get into negative squabbling that does nothing more than hurt others). MY opinions are MY opinions it just so happens that I work for a model train manufacturer and I can sometimes shed some light on certain subjects.
I feel that a positive outlook will always produce better results than negative attitudes!

[:)]