cabbage wrote:hoofe,$3.75c or £1.89p I do most of my daily costing calculations in Swiss Francs -which is quite normal when you work for a Swiss Company...regardsralph
Cabbage: Heh, I guess you showed me!
I would not know a Swiss Franc if I saw one. The only 'foreign' bills I've ever had were a pound note (I still have it) and some Chinese 'funny money' that looks like Monopoly money.
Actually, I'm rather impressed: when I want to flummox the kids behind the cash register, I'll use the terms. I enjoy the look of utter blankness from those young, empty eyes.
Les
Snowshoe,
I too am looking at the "on/off speed/direction" controller w. knob. Barry, over in England, sells, including shipping, a kit for about 18 bucks. (Not sure if it controls acceleration/deacceleration.) They sell a completely made up one, too. I'm going to buy one just to get a good look at one. And that's a cheaper price than I've found Stateside, if you can believe that.
I'm far from having solved the RC problem, but I'm working on it. With little free cash, going down possible blind alleys is a big concern. Just now I'm looking at the library's "Electronics for Dummies" books.
As far as sound goes, I'm already half deaf, so a sound system is not contemplated. If I put one in at all, it'll be out of a Bachmann or something.
Good luck,
Les W.
I dont mean to start world war 3, but all, well most anyway, of the replies to the original question regarding cosys all hover around what you can purchase.
Make it yourself, and then only purchase what you cant make... look at http://gscaletrains.net.nz/
It may not be correct for you, but I have a choice, mortgage the house, dog, whatever, or sit and dream, or get outside with my garden layout which costs me very little.
Its not expensive provided you are prepared tp put the time, instead of money, and do most of it yourself. Have a go, you wil surprise yourself with the finished product.
Tony
The Home of Articulated Ugliness
Kiwi Down Under wrote: I dont mean to start world war 3, but all, well most anyway, of the replies to the original question regarding cosys all hover around what you can purchase.Make it yourself, and then only purchase what you cant make... look at http://gscaletrains.net.nz/It may not be correct for you, but I have a choice, mortgage the house, dog, whatever, or sit and dream, or get outside with my garden layout which costs me very little.Its not expensive provided you are prepared tp put the time, instead of money, and do most of it yourself. Have a go, you wil surprise yourself with the finished product.Tony
Yes Tony, that is exactly right! You put into words what I was trying to say. It's not expensive if you engage the grey matter located in the brain housing group.
My plants are mostly local species of wildflowers- inexpensive, pretty and very hardy. My track was bought at closeout prices and BOGO (buy one get one) sales. My rolling stock is fleamarket or closeout prices with my own modifications and upgrades. The building blocks of the roadbed and etc are recycled building materials that cost nothing.
Would I like to have the live steam articulated with full RC sound and a bag of chips? Sure, who wouldn't. But the reality is I can't afford it just like I can't afford a yacht, a Navigator and a McMansion. But I can afford to enjoy my hobby at my level of finances and skills.
I lament the passing of the day when "model" railroading (or RC planes, motorcycles, etc) involved building. We are quickly passing into the drive through mentality of purchasing ready made and spending money to get what we want, instead of making something that is a reflection of ourselves as creative individuals.
Give me a blank cheque and I can have a OCC chopper, a 5,000 ft live steam railroad, or a ready to fly RC plane- cold and anticeptic- without individual charm- just another thing to own. But give the average modern "modeler" a box of parts and a month, and they will produce nothing because it was too hard or takes too long. Give me a box of parts and in a month I will make, with my own hands, something special.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
tangerine-jack wrote: Kiwi Down Under wrote: I dont mean to start world war 3, but all, well most anyway, of the replies to the original question regarding cosys all hover around what you can purchase.Make it yourself, and then only purchase what you cant make... look at http://gscaletrains.net.nz/It may not be correct for you, but I have a choice, mortgage the house, dog, whatever, or sit and dream, or get outside with my garden layout which costs me very little.Its not expensive provided you are prepared tp put the time, instead of money, and do most of it yourself. Have a go, you wil surprise yourself with the finished product.Tony Yes Tony, that is exactly right! You put into words what I was trying to say. It's not expensive if you engage the grey matter located in the brain housing group. My plants are mostly local species of wildflowers- inexpensive, pretty and very hardy. My track was bought at closeout prices and BOGO (buy one get one) sales. My rolling stock is fleamarket or closeout prices with my own modifications and upgrades. The building blocks of the roadbed and etc are recycled building materials that cost nothing.Would I like to have the live steam articulated with full RC sound and a bag of chips? Sure, who wouldn't. But the reality is I can't afford it just like I can't afford a yacht, a Navigator and a McMansion. But I can afford to enjoy my hobby at my level of finances and skills. I lament the passing of the day when "model" railroading (or RC planes, motorcycles, etc) involved building. We are quickly passing into the drive through mentality of purchasing ready made and spending money to get what we want, instead of making something that is a reflection of ourselves as creative individuals. Give me a blank cheque and I can have a OCC chopper, a 5,000 ft live steam railroad, or a ready to fly RC plane- cold and anticeptic- without individual charm- just another thing to own. But give the average modern "modeler" a box of parts and a month, and they will produce nothing because it was too hard or takes too long. Give me a box of parts and in a month I will make, with my own hands, something special.
TJ & Kiwi:
The gentleman said he wasn't any good at working with his hands--unless I've got posts crossed up in my head again.
For my part, a hearty Amen! to scratchbuilding. I too wish the days of scratchbuilding were still around. But they're not, and what is, is. That's why I gave a serious look at Cabbage's 16mm scale, when he said that craftsmanship is valued below effort to get something built and rolling. That'd be a great environment for me, because I just know when I post a pix of my first project, it's gonna be divided into two parts (unlike Gaul): constructive criticism and the other kind. I value constructive criticism, ala Vic's explanation to me re a Lionel 0-6-0. It was courteous and still informative.
If I can't substitue brains, skill and effort for $$, I can't do G gauge. And I'm going to do G gauge. And the only way I've ever gotten into a hobby was to jump in and get with it.
Gotta go, wife's hollering.
I agree hoofe, to a certain point. How does one know, I mean really know, that you are or are not "good with the hands" unless you continue to push yourself to be better by practicing and asking for help. My uncle Roy in PA has thousands of modeling magazines from the 30's to 60's that show how to build anything at all, including constructing the machine tools to build the models, step by step. Sadly, modern mags fall short in this area.
Reading through this treasure trove (which someday, if God wills it, I will inherit it all before the rest of the family throws them out) of information I fail to see how anybody can not feel confident about trying a simple project themselves. For example, I was reading an article about how to build a live steam loco by an 80 year old man in a magazine printed in 1950. That is detailed information from a man who has decades of experience that has probably been dead for 40 or 50 years already. Through the printed word, and the modern digital age, I can tap the collective experience of all the modelers and machinists who have lived and experienced for the last 100 years. In this example, I can read into the mind of a man who has experience dating from maybe 1890 or so. How can I fail? By not trying at all, that's how.
Caveat- I am not saying that buying ready made is demonic by any means at all. All I am saying is that we are moving towards forgetting that building things ourselves has many rewards of its own, and I fear we are misdirecting the youth by not giving them all the information about this aspect of the hobby. We need to encourage scratch building as a legitimate means of promoting this hobby along with the ready made store bought. I am eager and ready to assist any modeler in my area with building tips and help, but sadly none have ever asked. I wonder if it's fear of rejection or ridicule, or a conception of "poverty" if we don't buy the latest gizmo?
hoofe116 wrote: tangerine-jack wrote: Kiwi Down Under wrote: I dont mean to start world war 3, but all, well most anyway, of the replies to the original question regarding cosys all hover around what you can purchase.Make it yourself, and then only purchase what you cant make... look at http://gscaletrains.net.nz/It may not be correct for you, but I have a choice, mortgage the house, dog, whatever, or sit and dream, or get outside with my garden layout which costs me very little.Its not expensive provided you are prepared tp put the time, instead of money, and do most of it yourself. Have a go, you wil surprise yourself with the finished product.Tony Yes Tony, that is exactly right! You put into words what I was trying to say. It's not expensive if you engage the grey matter located in the brain housing group. My plants are mostly local species of wildflowers- inexpensive, pretty and very hardy. My track was bought at closeout prices and BOGO (buy one get one) sales. My rolling stock is fleamarket or closeout prices with my own modifications and upgrades. The building blocks of the roadbed and etc are recycled building materials that cost nothing.Would I like to have the live steam articulated with full RC sound and a bag of chips? Sure, who wouldn't. But the reality is I can't afford it just like I can't afford a yacht, a Navigator and a McMansion. But I can afford to enjoy my hobby at my level of finances and skills. I lament the passing of the day when "model" railroading (or RC planes, motorcycles, etc) involved building. We are quickly passing into the drive through mentality of purchasing ready made and spending money to get what we want, instead of making something that is a reflection of ourselves as creative individuals. Give me a blank cheque and I can have a OCC chopper, a 5,000 ft live steam railroad, or a ready to fly RC plane- cold and anticeptic- without individual charm- just another thing to own. But give the average modern "modeler" a box of parts and a month, and they will produce nothing because it was too hard or takes too long. Give me a box of parts and in a month I will make, with my own hands, something special.TJ & Kiwi:The gentleman said he wasn't any good at working with his hands--unless I've got posts crossed up in my head again.For my part, a hearty Amen! to scratchbuilding. I too wish the days of scratchbuilding were still around. But they're not, and what is, is. That's why I gave a serious look at Cabbage's 16mm scale, when he said that craftsmanship is valued below effort to get something built and rolling. That'd be a great environment for me, because I just know when I post a pix of my first project, it's gonna be divided into two parts (unlike Gaul): constructive criticism and the other kind. I value constructive criticism, ala Vic's explanation to me re a Lionel 0-6-0. It was courteous and still informative.If I can't substitue brains, skill and effort for $$, I can't do G gauge. And I'm going to do G gauge. And the only way I've ever gotten into a hobby was to jump in and get with it.Gotta go, wife's hollering.Les
I started collecting G scale/gage back in the 90's back when you could get DECAL's and dry transfers I did some thing's I wanted mostly RGS. Now I want to do some SP stuff but no decal's unless I specal order them. We all are in the same boat with no paddel, unless you have the buck's to spend. I don't anymore, My train money come's from working OT when I work or as gift's that I've picked out from old catalog's I'm still waiting on a second car backordered from Christmas from my adult step daughter, She got me two car's one a DRGW box car from USA Trains I received in Jan. She will not tell me what the second one is. I also over two year's or so replaced all my brass track with Stainless. At the moment I don't have a RR to run my train's what I had has been mostly torn down and a rebuild started. that was 26 Dec I have not been to the Reno much this year because of being Ill. So If you think it cost alot to run LS, start small like most of the rest of us did. I like my trains even thougt I can't run them.
Dave
The head is gray, hands don't work , back is weak, legs give out, eyes are gone, money go's and my wife still love's Me.
tangerine-jack wrote: I agree hoofe, to a certain point. How does one know, I mean really know, that you are or are not "good with the hands" unless you continue to push yourself to be better by practicing and asking for help. My uncle Roy in PA has thousands of modeling magazines from the 30's to 60's that show how to build anything at all, including constructing the machine tools to build the models, step by step. Sadly, modern mags fall short in this area.Reading through this treasure trove (which someday, if God wills it, I will inherit it all before the rest of the family throws them out) of information I fail to see how anybody can not feel confident about trying a simple project themselves. For example, I was reading an article about how to build a live steam loco by an 80 year old man in a magazine printed in 1950. That is detailed information from a man who has decades of experience that has probably been dead for 40 or 50 years already. Through the printed word, and the modern digital age, I can tap the collective experience of all the modelers and machinists who have lived and experienced for the last 100 years. In this example, I can read into the mind of a man who has experience dating from maybe 1890 or so. How can I fail? By not trying at all, that's how. Caveat- I am not saying that buying ready made is demonic by any means at all. All I am saying is that we are moving towards forgetting that building things ourselves has many rewards of its own, and I fear we are misdirecting the youth by not giving them all the information about this aspect of the hobby. We need to encourage scratch building as a legitimate means of promoting this hobby along with the ready made store bought. I am eager and ready to assist any modeler in my area with building tips and help, but sadly none have ever asked. I wonder if it's fear of rejection or ridicule, or a conception of "poverty" if we don't buy the latest gizmo?
TJ:
You made so many good points that I want to comment on a few of 'em:
About 'knowing' if one can scratchbuild... I have a son-in-law who says he 'can't do' whatever--until I show him how. And I've met a few people who were hopless with any tool other than a ballpoint pen. There are those who've never been exposed to building anything. As adults, they have the means to reach their goals with a plastic card. That's fine. But they're stuck if someone else doesn't sell what they want or need. They live in a culture of 'buy it'.
About today's modeling magazines not going at all (or vanishingly little) into building the machines, jigs, fixtures that are required to build a given project... That hit me like a comet. Because I thought, "Da-- er, Zounds! He's right!" It's true that modern technology doesn't lend itself to hand-building. A transistor is not a home-brew project, after all. But transistors and a few other parts do electronic boards make for our wants, which certainly can be built at home. I think there's a niche market for an electronics firm to provide kits and wiring diagrams for model trains. And you're absolutely right: the modeling magazines give very little space to the nitty-gritty aspects. GR's most famous phrase is, "it'll take some trial and effort..." uh, yeah, amigos. But what kind of trial and effort? What mistakes show that one is erring in X direction? That's just lazy tech writing. (I used to do some of that before I found other work--for McDonnell Douglas).
I can't see MR, GR or any other magazine publishing 'Build your own handheld train controller using an old TV remote.' Yet, there are circuits on the web that do use a tv remote. The receiver is an IR (infra-red) device, and logic decoders, and the final control circuits for the item to be controlled. Because if they did, they'd probably get a blistering nasty-gram from certain of their advertisers. Those circuits are simple enough to wire up, provided one can solder, has a basic understanding of electronics, and can read a schematic. And those things can be learned, just like learning how to run a small hobby lathe or any other tool. The thing is, learning the basic skills to do scratchbuilding aren't picked up in an afternoon, a week, or possibly even several months--assuming a very fast learner. That's where Cabbage's remark re 16mm ga was so right on the mark. I suspect more people would build more projects if the details were better provided. I, for one, would pay for a tested schematic and parts list--provided at least some dealer support went with. And provided it wasn't about ten dollars less than the finished product.
As an aside, so far my research into onboard control has broken down the problem thusly:
TX/RX: TX being the transmitter. A handheld TV remote in my case. RX is the receiver that controls the engine. It would have A) an IR sensor plus buffer circuit which fed B) a decoder circuit which translates the operator's desires into electronic-ese, which fed C) a controller circuit, be it speed, proportional speed, Direction, Panic Stop, hand control of bell/whistle. The sound circuit could be included, or fed from the controller. None of this is rocket surgury. But some of it is rather intricate. Pulse width vs pulse counts. There are good reasons for each, but I don't know which is 'best'. I don't care, incidentally, so long as it works.
To get back to building say, an engine. Most, I assume, use pre-existing 'power bricks', consisting of a motor, gear train and wheels. I'm not on firm ground here, not having done it yet. But I've yet to read anything about the thinking that goes into selecting one. Here's a possible area for error: one selects a brick, builds an over-large/heavy engine, and the gears let go or the motor dies regularly. Or they put bigger wheels on it and it suddenly runs like a scalded cat but won't pull more than a caboose. When was the last time you read anything about wheel diameter having a direct effect on tractive effort and/or speed? Supposing one didn't have that piece of information going in? Or that it wasn't provided in units of measure that are readily understandable? What good is knowing "This unit will provide 0.00335 ft/lbs/fortnight of torque while consuming 0.000004 joules of energy?" Or whatever. Why not, "Under normal conditions, this unit will pull four pounds and last a long time."
To carry on with the engine example: smokestacks cost $8 on Evilbay for a Bachmann Ten -Osaurus. I can turn one out on a lathe for the cost of a dowel rod, hole bored thru, free. Well, yes, one has to have a lathe, know how to use it, etc. But that's akin to giving a starving man not only a fishing pole, but a frying pan, too. Simple lathes are very cheap, used. Especially wood lathes. More than that, I can write a darned good post telling some newbie guy how he can do it. There's another problem: the guys who are excellent builders don't like to, or can't, write well.
You're right on the mark: technical information is lacking in modern train magazines. Probably there isn't enough demand for it from the readers. But if the mags provide the space, the subscription costs go up
hoofe 116,
Same migration away from building is happening in the R/C airplane world. It's now much cheaper to buy ARFs (Almost Ready to Fly) than it is to buy plans and materials to scratch build a plane. Used to be you arrived at the airfield with a new plane and everyone awed at your workmanship and kept their fingers crossed when you took it up on that first flight. Everyone knew how much time (measured in months) you had put into the creation of a plane. Now a new plane arrives at the field which everyone assumes is an ARF that takes no time to build and which they've seen online and read how well it flys. No big deal any more. You crack it up and most guys won't even try to repair it. They just buy a new one. Heck half of the fun used to be seeing a bag of pieces come back to the field the next week and make it into the air. Those days are gone for most of the new pilots and maybe thats okay as they do more flying than building.
I think GR still has room for modelers. After all our layouts are our own creations in and of themselves. I get a big kick out of building houses that will stand up to the outdoor environment. Yes I started with kits and have progressed to plans and cutting my own lumber and shingles etc. I've even built a barn from plans I drew up with my old drafting tools. Buildings from fence pickets can be built for as little as $15 versus buying a plastic Pola for $100+. Some guys make their own people out of tin foil and clay for pennies versus buying them at $10+ a pop. The Aussie you mentioned who builds his own track is another one. Yes there is room for modelers in GR who have more time than money and who love to do this sort of thing. You just have to decide how much you want to do yourself versus pay someone else.
Electronics is a different story for me at least. I think I could solder up a circuit board but I sure couldn't make the parts that go on it. I could probably write the software too but it would take much more time to write and debug and then I would still have to get it loaded which would cost more than just buying it to start with. It would be interesting to price up a decoder board from plans to see if one could be made cheaper than buying it already made.
Just some random thoughts,
Rex
I also scratchbuild and fly RC planes. K- that is why you use a PRE FLIGHT CHECKLIST. I have also seen more than one crash due to reversed alerons or elevetors. Totaly preventable.
Is that any different than spending 6 months scratchbuilding a G scale fish cannery only to have the dog chew it up the first day out on the railroad?
I buy I build I fly I crash I buy I build I fly I crash I buy I build I fly I crash I buy I build I fly I crash I buy I build I fly I crash
Rex in Pinetop wrote: hoofe 116,Same migration away from building is happening in the R/C airplane world. It's now much cheaper to buy ARFs (Almost Ready to Fly) than it is to buy plans and materials to scratch build a plane. Used to be you arrived at the airfield with a new plane and everyone awed at your workmanship and kept their fingers crossed when you took it up on that first flight. Everyone knew how much time (measured in months) you had put into the creation of a plane. Now a new plane arrives at the field which everyone assumes is an ARF that takes no time to build and which they've seen online and read how well it flys. No big deal any more.
Same migration away from building is happening in the R/C airplane world. It's now much cheaper to buy ARFs (Almost Ready to Fly) than it is to buy plans and materials to scratch build a plane. Used to be you arrived at the airfield with a new plane and everyone awed at your workmanship and kept their fingers crossed when you took it up on that first flight. Everyone knew how much time (measured in months) you had put into the creation of a plane. Now a new plane arrives at the field which everyone assumes is an ARF that takes no time to build and which they've seen online and read how well it flys. No big deal any more.
Rex,
No surprise there, Slick. Three guesses as to where the ARF's are made. They are cheap Chinese made crap and you get what you pay for. A properly built plane will survive many harsh landings, an ARF usually does not and the owner has no Earthly idea how to fix it since he or she never built it in the first place. Look at any RC forum and you will see thousands of "how do I fix my ARF" posts. It does not always cost more to scratch, but you get a MUCH better flying and much stronger plane, however it is getting VERY hard to find a hobby store that sells sheet balsa or any of the other items needed to build from a plan. Replacement wing for an ARF? Yes, that I can buy less than a mile from my house, but balsa to BUILD a wing? Sometimes they have it, sometimes they don't and nobody knows what is "good" or "bad" balsa for certain purposes.
Back on topic, I thought I was starting (or at least inflaming) a war, but it appears that the respectable posters have more or less agreed with me that the art of crafting is nearing extinction. From what research I have done it would appear that our brothers in the UK are holding up the old traditions of rolling yer own, whilst we across the pond are degenerating into consumer slaves. I have always been impressed by English model railways. While they don't have the size or abundance of rolling stock that a normal American railroad would have, the level of detail, prototype uniqueness, and charm are quite interesting and remarkable and more than make up for the small size.
I for one am more impressed by a crappy scratch built watchman's shanty built from index cards than I am by a $1,000 ready made passenger station. The former was effort, thought and ambition on the part of a unique and wonderfully made human being, the latter a simple consumer good. Again I am not saying by any means the ready to run or store bought anything are bad or bad for the hobby, all I am saying is that let us NOT loose the skills and satisfaction (dare I say "joy"?) of scratch building as a PRIMARY part of the hobby, not just a curiosity practiced by old men in dark basements.
In G if you want anything unique or special, you had better be ready to make it yourself cause NO ONE is going out of there way to make it for you.
One of the main thrusts of my kitbashing is that unless you kitbash or buildings and rolling stock, your layout will invariably look like everyone elses, your roster will be like everyone elses, wheres the fun in that?
Have fun with your trains
vsmith wrote:In G if you want anything unique or special, you had better be ready to make it yourself cause NO ONE is going out of there way to make it for you.One of the main thrusts of my kitbashing is that unless you kitbash or buildings and rolling stock, your layout will invariably look like everyone elses, your roster will be like everyone elses, wheres the fun in that?
DITTO!
I've noticed that a majority of layouts in the popular smaller scales, although nicely built and scenicked, basically look the same with a lot of the ubiquitous recognizable structures and rolling stock. Regretably this "sameness factor," which is also becoming the norm in On30, turns me off of modeling in these popular scales (they're also waaay too small). I love building unique rolling stock and structures from stripwood and other common materials and large scale is just the ticket.
tangerine-jack wrote: Rex in Pinetop wrote: hoofe 116,Same migration away from building is happening in the R/C airplane world. It's now much cheaper to buy ARFs (Almost Ready to Fly) than it is to buy plans and materials to scratch build a plane. Used to be you arrived at the airfield with a new plane and everyone awed at your workmanship and kept their fingers crossed when you took it up on that first flight. Everyone knew how much time (measured in months) you had put into the creation of a plane. Now a new plane arrives at the field which everyone assumes is an ARF that takes no time to build and which they've seen online and read how well it flys. No big deal any more. Rex, No surprise there, Slick. Three guesses as to where the ARF's are made. They are cheap Chinese made crap and you get what you pay for. A properly built plane will survive many harsh landings, an ARF usually does not and the owner has no Earthly idea how to fix it since he or she never built it in the first place. Look at any RC forum and you will see thousands of "how do I fix my ARF" posts. It does not always cost more to scratch, but you get a MUCH better flying and much stronger plane, however it is getting VERY hard to find a hobby store that sells sheet balsa or any of the other items needed to build from a plan. Replacement wing for an ARF? Yes, that I can buy less than a mile from my house, but balsa to BUILD a wing? Sometimes they have it, sometimes they don't and nobody knows what is "good" or "bad" balsa for certain purposes.Back on topic, I thought I was starting (or at least inflaming) a war, but it appears that the respectable posters have more or less agreed with me that the art of crafting is nearing extinction. From what research I have done it would appear that our brothers in the UK are holding up the old traditions of rolling yer own, whilst we across the pond are degenerating into consumer slaves. I have always been impressed by English model railways. While they don't have the size or abundance of rolling stock that a normal American railroad would have, the level of detail, prototype uniqueness, and charm are quite interesting and remarkable and more than make up for the small size.I for one am more impressed by a crappy scratch built watchman's shanty built from index cards than I am by a $1,000 ready made passenger station. The former was effort, thought and ambition on the part of a unique and wonderfully made human being, the latter a simple consumer good. Again I am not saying by any means the ready to run or store bought anything are bad or bad for the hobby, all I am saying is that let us NOT loose the skills and satisfaction (dare I say "joy"?) of scratch building as a PRIMARY part of the hobby, not just a curiosity practiced by old men in dark basements.
You have two points that I'd like to respond to.
First, it's true that one can buy RTR about as cheaply--in some cases--as one can scratchbuild it. Scratchbuilding depends upon a strong "Scrounge Gene" if saving money is part of the motive. I believe no less a light than Peter Jones attempted to describe how he collects things based on their shapes. I choose scrap items based upon their mechanical properties. Just today I dismembered a vintage *** drill. Now I have two sets of miter gears of different pitches, which will allow for different speeds. What will I turn with them? Probably a turntable. I have dreamed of a turntable since I was a kid with my Lionel set. I think I'd better build one before I lay in a stock of gears that will fill a garbage can.
And, the scratchbuilding being the domain of 'Old men in dark basements' is wry but like many truisms, exists. First, possibly because you have to be old enough to develop patience and some of the necessary skills. Second, shop classes in HS are the domain of malcontents and kids trying for a cheap 'A'. There's no interest in learning much. My shop course was a joke, anyway. I remember we had to memorize the names of various types of files, based on their cuts. I still don't know those names. But I can glance at a file index and select the one I have in mind, because I know how each cuts by the tooth pattern.
The question resolves itself to "how do we interest people in scratchbuilding?" I don't know. First, do we even have the responsibility to do so? I don't feel any imperative to urge someone to go out, collect enough junk to remake into a desired engine or piece of rolling stock, and build it. When one tries, one invariably gets hit with, "Heck, by time I bought all those tools I coud buy a huge RR!" A difficult objection to answer, especially since the embedded proposition is that the be-all and end-all of running a huge RR is the desired goal.
I too admire and respect the Brits' habit of hand-making a lot of their stuff. Maybe most of them do; I really don't know that much about over-pond model RRing. I have to suspect there's probably a bit of social pressure exerted: more positive to the builders, less to the 'buyers'.
I too much prefer seeing a handbuilt piece over a similar 'store boughten' one. Even a technically inaccurate one (though it'd have to be very obvious at my present stage of prototype knowledge). I remember that my major dissatisfaction with Lionel (ca 40s-60s) that I collected and ran was the inability to 'bash. The parts were worth too much. And with G, there is no earthly way I will lay down several hundred dollars for an item and take a saw to it. Why bother? Why not apply some of the money to building it in the first place?
There probably isn't any way to boost interest in handbuilding. Even if someone built an entire layout from the ties up and did a museum-quality job, and landscaped it like an artist, the reply would likely be, "That's fine for you. But it doesn't look right." The definition of 'right' is, of course, commercially-produced. It's a cultural value.
There used to be a magazine called 'Finescale Modeler'. Or somesuch. I don't know if it still exists, but when I read it years ago, I found the finished projects daunting. Those people were good. Far better than I'd ever try to be, because the concept of 'reasonable approximation' or 'the law of diminishing returns' is a real consideration. I want to create a useable, (self) satisfying layout, not a work of art. A craftsman I am, an artist I am most assuredly not.
If there ever is enough interest generated around here for scratchbuilding, I move it be named 'The Aluminum Angle Rail' forum, in honor of that Aussie.
I went over to a certain another site on my electronics quest. The first answer I got was, "Big Job!" Another answer was an offer to sell me a particular component--not that I object in the least to a sales pitch--but until I satisfy myself I ca
Cultural change. Yes, well put. Seeing with my own eyes in my uncle's mag collection what was done in the '30s puts to shame what I felt was cutting edge building in the '80s. It's only gotten worse with the drive through mentality of the modern youth.
I was also daunted by the "expert" modelers until I joined a building club back in my college days. These experts were really no better than me, they just knew some techniques I didn't. None of them, not one, failed to share that technique with me when I asked. I improved my modeling by orders of magnitude simply by asking and learning from those that were "better". No need to reinvent the wheel.
Well whatever, my uncle has thousands of really cool modeling mags that will keep me happy for the next 400 years. I will content myself to drift away in the yellowing pages of these wonderful writers and builders of those fantastic machines and models while the rest of the world can turn into Morlocks for all I care. Made in China indeed......
I'm no artist. I recognize that, and to progress to the highest levels of finescale work, one must have a streak of artistry in one's blood.
As for asking questions, I started as the lowest of the low in the machine shop, and progressed to supervising the joint. We did advanced technology work. A great big part of what I know I got by asking someone who knew what I needed to know. Most people love being the expert. I have never been reluctant to ask questions. I have a pretty basic one up just now, as it happens.
Les <--- Hates snow
Rex in Pinetop wrote:"... There is a guy here in AZ with several mil wrapped up in his layout ... "Rex
"... There is a guy here in AZ with several mil wrapped up in his layout ... "
Holy Gamolies, Rex! ... I'm in AZ also and I'd love Love LOVE to see THAT RR!
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BTW, Mr. Enginear, SIR! - 'Sorry to learn that you lost your job! ...
I was retired when I started into this hobby. Knew nothing about woodworking or scratchbuilding. My younger brother is a woodworker and he showed me what types of tools I needed to make my own buildings. For under $200 worth of equipment I have now an impressive collection of buildings. I am now buying cheap pieces of rolling stock and cutting them up to make my own distinctive cars. Sharing information with others is key in making any hobby more affordable and fun. Dennis
Loco Larry,
The layout I mentioned in the several mil range is the "Palo Verde & Southwestern Railroad". It is owned by Dennis & Elizabeth Sirrine. It was on the Christmas tour which is where I saw it. It was also pictured in the Feb issue of GR advertising the convention. It features over 4,000' of track on raised islands so you can walk around and into the layout. It will be on the convention tour so if you're coming for that then you don't want to miss this thrid largest layout ever.
"I buy I build I fly I crash I buy I build I fly I crash I buy I build I fly I crash I buy I build I fly I crash I buy I build I fly I crash..."
For me it's more like I build, I fly, I crash, I rebuild, I fly, I crash, I rebuild.... I've got more than one plane that has been through multiple iterations of the program.
Crashing doesn't take much time: it's usually measured in seconds. Flying is in 15-20 minute increments: The more the better. Building takes many months. Rebuilding takes days to weeks. I will say that G-scale buildings do last longer than my airplanes and don't take nearly as much time to build.
Yes I use a preflight checklist however it doesn't seem to have much impact on my first flight nerves. So far I haven't crossed up the aileron direction yet. Putting a new loco on the track and handing the trottle to a neighbor kid for its first run does bring up the heart rate a bit. Nothing like the heart rate of that maiden flight though.
Sticker shock just set in, went on my first trip this year to my LHS to see what's new, wow the price of Track has surpassed the price of gas. 1-10' and 1-11.5 SS $41.00 Gas today $3.35 a Gal. looks like I'll be using the 9ft stuff that's been collectig dust.
Let's do the math. $500 for machine tools/ jigs, cutters, lathe, band saw etc- purchased at closeout or second hand pricing for unlimited building of structures, track, rolling stock and whatever else. Cost of materials for a simple boxcar project is around $20 or so if you use a minimum of commercial parts and pallet wood (free)/ cost of a simple building using no commercial parts and only pallet wood and other scrap is zero. Time factor is what you make of it bearing in mind the more building you do the faster you will do it in. Now let's say you use the tools for 30 years and make one box car and one structure a month, which amounts to $7,200 plus the initial $500 in tools for a total of 720 construction projects for $7,700.
This is about $21.38 a month for your hobby. This is of course a very crude approximation, but getting back to the original poster question the answer is no, you can run garden trains for less than $30 a month. AND you can use the machine tools to fix the drawers in the kitchen, build the wife a jewelry box and other wifey knickknacks or gifts.
You do not HAVE to buy anything at the hobby store, if you can afford to, then go right ahead, if not, you can build your own. Try it!
SNOWSHOE wrote:All this talk about building things from scratch is there any good web sites that deals with the basics of electronics and building structures. If no good sites any good books you recomend.
You local library will have a good supply of books of they type you are asking about. If they don't have it on the shelf they can order it for you from another branch. They have books on railroading as well as doll houses and other crafts. MRR mag has many books in print concerning this subject, I believe if you go to this web site's home page and look under Kalmbach publishing you will find a book store.
Snowshoe:
Go to amazon.com and check the titles on the 'Dummy' books. I've read a few and they're pretty decent. And, you can read reviews on any title that someone has bought and bothered to submit a review for.
As for woodworking power tools, which is what buildings are usually made from by do-it-yourselfers, check Ebay. A worthwhile table saw can be had for about $25 plus shipping (a big plus, sometimes, check it out first with the seller if in doubt). That's a basic power tool. Another is a drill press. I have one from the Celestial Kingdom (China). Does just fine. With those two items you can make life much easier. Later, consider an inexpensive metal lathe, although a wood lathe is orders of magnitude cheaper and should serve you well. Mostly, building structures is common-sense: make a sketch of what you want, or use a picture (I make lots of stuff from pictures--usually just one. Not G RR, mind you, I'm still doing my first project, but other neat things). If you're really unsure, use cardboard, cardstock and tape and anything else that's free and make a 'mockup'. That'll tell you a whole lot, especially if you try to build it near to scale right off the bat.
I have not found a website that offers anything on basic electronics. Use the keywords 'Board Bending' to find lots of sites that make electronic things from other electronic things, like dead teddy bears turned into sound generators. It's mostly music-oriented, but it'll be someplace to start. I won't live long enough to follow all the links from the various sites.
Remember: anything you want to do badly enough, you can do--or you can discover a lot of solid technical reasons why you can't. Either way, you'll learn a whole bunch.
I just got my copy of GR.
When I read the editor's notes, I had to smile: has he been following this thread?
(No, no telling when this month's edition was begun).
I notice GR is getting fatter.
Snow:
Try this site: http://www.openbookproject.net//electricCircuits/
Les Whitaker
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