I originally ran ho gauge trains. As I grew older with my eyesight slipping and fingers growing stiff I looked for a larger train that I could still have fun with. I moved to G gauge and I'm realizing that I may not be able to afford to keep up. After investing what I consider an exsorbent amount of cash on track and the rest I'm still plaged by operational problems and would have to come up with even more cash that people say I'm crazy for considering.
Aristo stainless track seemed to be the way to go. I know this company has helped the hobby grow emensely. The other track on the market uses the same joiners. The supplied rail joiners don't work. Everyone is expected to replace them with upgrades. Why do the even supply them with the track. I have to replace them all and must come up with another couple hundred dollars and this could be the last straw. My mth dcs has required much additional investment also and I'm not a bank. In fact I lost my job. So the rest of you may be saying too bad but where does anyone tell you that to run a decent size layout with some operational interest it may cost you over ten grand or so. If anything else goes wrong I'll sell it all and thats whats wrong with garden size railroads unless you're happy with a small oval going around and around in circles.
The Home of Articulated Ugliness
Hi there, Sorry to hear about the job. Take care of family and your bills first, worrying about the layout should be like item #341 on your list.
What stage are you at today? how big is the layout? What climate is it in? What are your goals? Its really hard to understand and offer advice without relevent information.
Track is usually one of the biggest cost in large scale, but then it ALWAYS has been, theres alot of metal in those rails. The recent price hikes for brass and copper havent helped but with the price of brass and SS almost being equal, might as well get the SS rail. I was at the start only spending about $50-$75 a month on it, what ever track or stock I could afford is all I bought, but over time I accumulated alot of track, enough to add a 12' x 20' outdoor loop in addition to the 8' x 20' indoor layout.
The only place you should need special joiners like clamps should only be where your joining one brand to another, IOWs after a long stretch of Aristo track joined to long segment of another brand, you may need a pair of railclamps at that point but not at every track joint. The stock Aristo joiners work OK enough, even if those little set screws can be a major PITA to install.
I've found this scale to be cheaper than HO by a long shot. I'm dirt poor hobby-money wise...yet I've amassed a sizable collection over the last 6 years, and I had to forgo any kind of a layout for close to 3 years. Perseverence pays off in this scale.
It depends on how big and how fast your planning on building your layout? Too big or too fast can be a problem if the logistics of doing it begin to overwhelm. Kinda like attempting to build a full basement sized layout in HO as your first time out. I also depends on what rolling stock you can or cannot live without. MTH isn't cheap, but if thats what you've decided to run then you have to accept the fact that it may take a while to aquire certain items, particularly if money is an issue.
I always felt the best way to get going was to start small and expand later, get something down on the ground running, even if its not what your ultimate goal is, it at least gets you running and gets your hands dirty and some experience under you belt that will be helpfull when you can afford to expand to the next phase of the layout plans.
My initial track plan was simple, only about 10' x 15' with a couple spurs and a passing siding, but it got me on the ground and running, and I was able to get enough track for that fairly reasonably. I planned to expand but I had to move it indoors for various reasons, which is where I still am today.
Have fun with your trains
enginear,
Have you ever considered joining a RR club in your area, or if there is not one try starting one? With a club many times members share their resources. So some people may not have the room, money, or expertise to build a layout can run their equipment on other members RR's. I feel if you look hard enough you can find a way to enjoy the hobby.
Cabbage, I have never heard the old joke about "Rhodesians and Soup"
CandCRR wrote: Cabbage, I have never heard the old joke about "Rhodesians and Soup"
Age is only a state of mind, keep the mind active and enjoy life
I think its more prioity of time and money.
I don't buy boats and RVs etc.
any trip is train related.
I work many extra hours when I can so the reward is trains.
I'm almost imbearist of all I have now. Back when I started i sold all my baby scale to buy large.
Now I only buy from a list and on sale.
Is it REAL? or Just 1:29 scale?
Long live Outdoor Model Railroading.
A couple of things to add.
#1- I need railclamps for the dcs signal through the stainless rails. they are about $2.50 a piece times a zillion connections(and I'm having trouble even seeing those stupid little screws that just strip and come loose; blindness; one reason I left the small scales)
2-I live in western NY and chose to move the railroad indoors in the whole cellar because of short but enjoyable summer season that I would only run trains for maybe about six to ten good weekends. I designed a layout that would loop out a cellar window; when expanded into the yard. I made a raised road bed down one side of the yard. Now I'll just rob a bank to get a couple more feet of track that may not even work when I try to run a train. Maybe I'll just look at them in their package. come on, just kiddin
3- if the makers are going to raise their prices that much and then expect us to upgrade their equipment, which in any other situation would be considered a defective product, they should include the clamps!!!!!!!!!! try contacting a manufacturer about problems and they'll just sell you more stuff
4,5,6, more to come ( becoming bitter with no money)
Okay so what does a garden railroad cost to startup in todays figures? (These are just my estimates so feel free to adjust accordingly.)
You need track - 1000' of new brass track will run about $5,700
You need a loco - Starter sets run about $160 each - lets say another $600 for 2 sets plus some other cars.
You need power and control - R/C sets run about $400 including the battery - About $600 for 2
Sound for each train will run $300 or so each - About $600
You need buildings - Figure 50 at about $15 each if you build your own - $750
You need trees and bushes - say 100 @ $10 each gets to $1000
You need ballast, rocks, and fill dirt - say about $400
You need people - say 40 @ $5 each is about $200
Finally throw in some switches, lights, and irrigation for another $500
Add it all up and you're in the neighborhood of $10K without labor for a basic garden railroad. It goes up from there. There is a guy here in AZ with several mil wrapped up in his layout. Of course you can go with a lot less for a 100' dogbone but those layouts eventually grow to the 1000' size later on down the road.
Okay am I close to what you all have invested in your railroads? Many of you bought track when it was a lot cheaper so maybe my estimate is high. Also most of us have spread out our investment over several years so it may be hard to get close to today's startup figure.
Rex
Hi Rex, thats for a First Class set up, how about letting me down her in Steerage Class take a crack at it
Now, Keep in mind, this is only MY own perspective
100 feet of track is a good start, so even at $5 a foot, subtrack a zero, from both
One Bachmann starter set + one HLW Mack = $160
Used LGB powerpack = $10
Bachmann comes with sound built in and wood whistles only run about $10 at shows
Piko entry level series $50 each for about 5 total $250, Rex has a definite advantage here
Since I would start smaller say 20 plants = $200, yeah they aint cheep unless you consider weeds garden varietal plants
got a full scope load of 1/4 crushed gravel, loaded into my truck and driven home, $50
Agreed expensive, start with about 10 = $50 though the crazies that use Sculpty and make their own claim they can do it for pennies a figure.
Hose is already there as is the porch light $0
I figure the investment to get up from my perspective would be under $1400 now break that down to about a years time frame to purchase and build its only about $116 a month, things like figures and structures could be postponed till the layout proper is up and runing so that alone should drop to under a grand.
Again as Rex pointed out theirs alot of stuff to consider for a larger layout and those costs have often been spread out over several years to get to that point. My only observation is that one can do alot by thinking and going smaller at first and expanding as time and budget allows, go big later when you can.
enginear
I STARTED IN 1998 with a Aristo starter set and 80 ft of track for my out side lay out and a pond . start going to train shows , this is how i added more cars and engines , i also buy some things from train world in NEW YORK , their is a train show in Penna. on March 28 and 29 at York PA. Fair Grounds . THIS is also a good time to buy train thing . today i have about 40 cars and 10 engines and 80 ft of track in my basement to run trains and about 180 ft of track out side with a pond in my garden railroad . get a garden railways magazine , their is a lot of Dealers in their . BEN
Sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean to start a boasting contest. 1000' of track is just one estimate for mainline and all the associated sidings. Yard size available is the major determining factor for how much track you can put down. I did a quick review of several railroads featured in GR. They range from 120' to 3,000 with one at 9,800'. This month it is 1400' in a 127' x 200' space. The last issue was 450' of mainline in a 45' x 55' space. Certainly you can build great railroads less than 1000'. I just threw a number out. If my estimates are too high then scale them back. Growing plants from seeds is a great way to save off of my estimate of $10 a plant too. My $15 a building is just my experience for materials. If you buy kits or plastic models then the cost is much higher.
Hi, Sorry about the job... I want to pass on ways to move forward in the hobby on a low income... Look for closeouts at mail order firms, such as trainworld, st. albin station, watts, and etc..... Move all your trains to one brand line, this will save money on parts... ebay sell off any trains that you don't use or want and rebuy the one you do want and will use.. The MTH trains are nice but I must agree on starting with a regular power pack and then when you have money to buy the DCS system for those loco's then do so.. Start small on track, start with a oval ( 8 foot radius - R3 LGB) of track and add a couple of switches for like a siding and a factory so your railroad will have a purpose.. to wire your layout is to put jumper wires every 6 to 10 feet of track, this will cure your power problems.. Buy one item each year that is a must have, such as a engine or rolling stock, work monthly on the purchase of track or buildings for the layout, set a goal for having a larger layout in a two year run... Start with a layout size of about 10' X 13' with the track I stated above and in two years have the goal of a 20' X 30' and keep on going from there... This is the best of model railroading as you can get.. I went out of other scales to only do G scale and I will never look back.... I hope this helps, I also want everything out there but I just can't afford it, Get the item you want best out off a list of 100 other items you want.. Well good luck and don't give up....
Rex in Pinetop wrote: Sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean to start a boasting contest. 1000' of track is just one estimate for mainline and all the associated sidings. Yard size available is the major determining factor for how much track you can put down. I did a quick review of several railroads featured in GR. They range from 120' to 3,000 with one at 9,800'. This month it is 1400' in a 127' x 200' space. The last issue was 450' of mainline in a 45' x 55' space. Certainly you can build great railroads less than 1000'. I just threw a number out. If my estimates are too high then scale them back. Growing plants from seeds is a great way to save off of my estimate of $10 a plant too. My $15 a building is just my experience for materials. If you buy kits or plastic models then the cost is much higher. Rex
Rex I wasnt trying to start anything either, just one different perspective,
$$$ must you be rich to run garden trains?
NO. It's all about what you want to do and how much time you are willing to spend. 10K will get you a slammin' railroad no doubt about it, or you could buy 3 Triumphs and a Norton (my personal choice). This topic has been covered many times on this forum, a quick search should yield a wealth of information for you to read. Bottom line is that you can get a small RR started for under $300 if you buy close out deals, start small and scratch build a lot.
YOU HAVE TO TEMPER YOUR WANTS WITH THE REALITY OF YOUR FINANCES. The point is to start- members of this forum did not get these huge collections and very nice RR's overnight on one internet order. Start, that's the key. Garden railroading. is a unique beast and cannot in anyway be compared to indoor scales. It's apples to oranges, each is good in it's own way, but a comparison does not do either justice.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
Instead of using rail clamps, soldering a wire between each section. The cost is almost zero for the material. You can do sound for maybe $75 each engine using the Dallee sound system. Or better yet, set up a trailing battery car with sound and use the car with what ever engine your running that day. Must more cost effective and works great.
Yes the track is getting very expensive, so start out small and plan to add each year to the layout amortizing the cost over a longer period of time. Bachman sells a good product that is very reasonably priced. So your engine and rolling stock does not have to cost an arm and a leg going that route.
If you are a member of a club, used equipment and track can often be obtained at reasonable prices.
Good luck and stick with it.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mvgilger
M. Gilger - President and Chief Engineer MM&G web
Web Site: http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/
vsmith wrote: The only place you should need special joiners like clamps should only be where your joining one brand to another, IOWs after a long stretch of Aristo track joined to long segment of another brand, you may need a pair of railclamps at that point but not at every track joint. The stock Aristo joiners work OK enough, even if those little set screws can be a major PITA to install.
I ended up buying a lot of brass rail clamps and end up putting in a few every month. I use LGB track and their stock rail joiners did not do me good. The plastic back up joiners that go under the track holding sections together were worthlless. I bought special pliers that tighten up rail joiners and that was a waste of money. What happened was shoddy work back in 2004 when my friend the out of work carpenter put up most of the wood base that my track is on. It's just above the ground. The ground actually is mostly sand so every month I notice my Aristo FA-1/FB-1 combos slowing down and speeding up over certain sections of rail.They seem to be the worst offenders of the bunch. I then try to build up the wood supports under the wood base in those spots so as to get things level again. That works most often until the sinkage starts again. I then put in the rail clamps and its good to go again for a month or so.
Probably I'm better off using the clamps where I can as oppossed to jacking up the track base. Twice now with my PP planning I built up the section by my storage shed so high that I could not get the door of the shed over the track when I went to open it. Trying to work too fast beating the daylight saving time when it gets dark at 5:30 PM. I should have fired myself then.
RUDY JAGER, CEO OF THE LONE WOLF RAILROAD
TRUST ME--I USED TO WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT!
Rich??? What about going out for an evening and spending $20 on booze a couple times a week. Those who dump $5 or more a day into the lotteries when you know the deck is stacked against you? How bout a Thou for a set of Golf clubs, another 500 for shoes and the proper wear, and then 100 a round in greens fees? Talk expensive! And you have nothing to show for all that stuff at the end of the day! Spend $1500 for a boat and motor, $500 for a dog, $1000 for the fancy shotgun, $300 for a mess of heavy clothes, all to get up before light to go out in freezing cold weather to take some potshots at a duck which you could go to the store and buy for $5.95???
It's a matter of value recieved, of how you want to pee your kids inheritance away. My boys say have fun with your money, you earned it! You just can't sell the farm cause that land is our inheritance!
Just start small and build on it. Don't waste your money on anything less than 8 or 10 foot diameter track, then you can run just about anything that they make on it if you want to.
enginear, your frustration is made clear, but I sense you have a variety of issues that are causing the problems, the foremost of which is poor conductivity throughout your layout.
I too have poor eyesight which limits how much do-it-myself tasks I can attempt. Trying to drill tiny holes into track, or joiners, or trying to solder tiny wires onto track would probably cause me to toss the entire lot into boxes to sell.
You mentioned MTH DCS. Does this mean you model in 1/32 scale using MTH equipment? Stainless steel track is a costly investment in any quantity, and apparently it is not paying for itself since you continue to have conductivity problems. Regardless of the glowing testimonials others may post about *their* SS track, it is not working in your situation. DCS, MTH's proprietary version of DCC, with all of its advantages, is also not working for you since one of the principle claims of DCC enthusiasts is that it's high AC track voltage overcomes dirty track problems. Apparently it does not do all that in your case.
I do not advocate any particular power solution. I own DC analog equipment and LGB MTS equipment. But I am also about to try battery/RC to see how I like that. Your frustrations are consistent with those that have convinced many to convert to battery/RC. I would suggest you sell off a lot of that expensive SS track (given the recent price increases you could recoup a high % of your original investment provided it is in good shape) and sell that finicky DCS equipment and purchase cheaper aluminum track and some battery/RC conversions for a few of your engines. Installed correctly, you will completely eliminate all of these power issues since the track connections no longer serve any purpose except physical joining....and even that isn't critical when your engines are running on batteries and are 100% independent of track conductivity.
Many of the large scale "operating" enthusiasts (who actually run cards, shunting cars back and forth, rather than let trains run in loops) who post in the various large scale forums are strong advocates of battery/RC because it eliminates concerns about running multiple engines, reverse loop wiring (goes away), yard and siding power isolation, blocks, polarity, etc. etc.
Your two posts indicate that you have spent a lot of money but the result is not satisfactory for you. Large scale is a different world than the smaller scales mostly because it *is* outdoors and subject to environmental conditions never encountered on indoor layouts. No wonder you are frustrated.
Try starting with one battery-powered remote-controlled locomotive. Whether RCS or Airwire or another brand (do some pre-purchase research in the large scale forums - most of them have a section devoted to battery/RC power), see what you can do with that and how itoperates over your existing track versus what you have been experiencing.
Al
wow, I think you read the post correctly!! I guess I was just venting my frustrations that I encountered with stainless and DCS, which by the way I'm close to working out after nearly two years indoors!
. Another time someone steered me to a fellow dcs user @ www.raymond4449.dynip.com that solved these issues himselve. I wish I would have known to look at these forums sooner. Having invested so much time and money already and didn't want to switch but rc sounds very good. We'll have to see how much more trouble I can endure before I switch. Thanks to all for the input. Just wondering who else..... $$$$$$$$$$$$
Enginear:
Well, you've heard from the most reputable, experienced guys on this board that I know of, so I have little to add save that I too am financially embarrassed. I too got into G guage because it's big enough to see and handle with aging eyes and fingers. I too was shocked at the prices, particularly for track, and that was when it was about 3 bucks, 6 bits a length. (Work that one out, Cabbage, heh, heh). And, before I could turn a spadeful of earth, my health went south. Thus, I was forced to reconsider. Perhaps give up. I decided I liked model RRing, I've spent years daydreaming about it, and I decided I was going to do it.
Here's what I did. I am not recommending it. I don't recommend anything except the hope to you that you don't give it up. I certainly can understand your frustration.
I joined this board and got lucky: it's a friendly place. I started asking questions. Eventually I started understanding most of the answers. You seem a good deal more advanced. I have not a foot of track laid. For an entire year I have been hacking away at making a place for a layout. I have been buying 'junk' on Ebay. Echo, Sci-Fi Toys, Bachmann Ten-Osaurs. Parts. I harbor a private belief that I, and I alone, jacked up the price of G-junk on Evilbay. Someday I'll put my best asset, the ability to fix/modify broken things, to use again.
Then another 'board-ite' asked, also in frustration, "How do you afford track?" A question I was just then pondering. I decided two things: I'd make my own track, switches, etc, and I'd learn to scratchbuild. I'm a retired tool and die maker, so the major technique I have learn is 'what is prototypical, and what is not yet is also acceptable in the scale world?' I've begun on a steam-generating plant. So, when the track question came up, I half-jokingly responded with 'use wooden track.' I had a technique worked out to make my own rails using a router and a jig, and with an indoor layout, weather wouldn't be critical.
In answer, one of the Bright Sparks here responded along the lines of, "Since you're going for pre-1840 to 1900, you can get away easily with strap rail." The light shone down. Of course! Literally, everything I'd been mulling over fell into place with that one observation. The biggest, almost unavoidable expense, avoided.
Lastly, I really feel your pain re the electronics: battery/RC; sound; whatever else. I'm surfing the Web to a froth: those circuits are out there, waiting to be found. I have enough electronics background to build 'em myself, but not enough education to design 'em. My personal opinion is they're a tad stiffly priced for what one gets. There's no standard for interchangeablity, there's EMI (electrical noise) issues, and apparently some reliability problems. I don't know--I don't own any yet, save for what came with the toy stuff. Pricey or not, the Chief Gurus around here convinced me that battery/RC was the way to go, and I will go that way to avoid some of the very problems that are dogging you. And what I want is, no problems when I sit down to run.
That's, of course, after I get everything built and the bugs worked out. Hang in there!
Les W in the corner pocket of the MO and Mississipi.
I know how the money issue feels. I am just getting into the hobby. When I got my first starter set and found out that you can build outdoors I thought that would be cool having something like that run all around the yard. Then I started researchring. I couldnt believe the prices for the track. I found the cheapest dealer and started buying a little at a time. My first layout is going to be around 70 ft of track. It is better to start small so you can work out the kinks and also to see if you will have enough time to maintain your RR. To save some money I went with Brass rather than steel. Rather than use rail joints I will use the screws that Aristo provides and possibly soder jumpers. I also went with 6.5 ft curves rather than the 8. I dont plan on ever running anything large. Cant afford the larger engines and I have always liked the narrow gauge look. Others have said switch to RC, well when I saw the prices to convert an engine to RC/ battery I said that will never happen. Another alternative to the battery thing is use a basic on off switch with battery, a lot cheaper that way. Im still researching that one though. The other problem I found was I have no skills in electronics or kitbashing. I dont even know where to start. I plan on learning but I doubt I will ever be able to kitbash like a lot on this board. Im not talented in that catagory. That there will not save me money. Even the sound boards, when I look at the prices of the better quality ones and saw that they cost more then the engine I have. Its like buying a mt bike for 100 dollars and then spending 400 dollars for the bike rack. Somethings wrong there. Im not one who goes out to the bars etc... cant even save money there. When it coes to structures and people you do a little at a time. My layout is going to be more of a wilderness setting. Right their I dont need a lot of figures and structures. A lot of my plants I am going to use things around the yard, sort of a trial and error thing for now. Im into the hobby more for just being able to let the trains run and sit back and watch them. Ya the hobby is expensive but what hobby is cheap these days. You just have to be willing to sacrifice in some areas. Get a small layout down and add intrest to it by adding detail to the scenery (tunnels, Mtns. S curves around boulders etc...) Make sure you use this board. Everyone is great in helping to solve your problems. I dont know how people did it before the internet. You use to have to go to your hobby shop for information or books. Now you have a problem you just send a post and you get a lot of great help. If you have a club close by that is another great way. That is another problem I have, no clubs close by and I cant even attend train shows because I work weekends. Hang in there and do a little at a time.
I guess e-bay is a good source, I never used them because I cant be bothered with the bidding wars and waiting to see if i won the bid.
cabbage wrote:OK,This is where I put on my wellies and ask a few questions... You say that your soil is mostly sand and that you have subsidence. They question is then -why are you building on to it? I would have sunk piles -either wooden posts or lengths of pipe into the surface and built on top of that. If the point loading of your soil is so poor then you might have to investigate building your roadbed on a sub bed of crushed brick hammered into the soil. The final solution could be a concrete of some kind -reynolds mix or hyper tufa come to mind as a first stop. My previous railway was 150mm x 25mm planks over 25mm x 50mm stretchers -a classic "plank on post" system. This proved strong enough to take my weight (105kg) and rigid enough not to warp between posts. It will be this system that I use for my next railway.regardsralph
Ralph:
My only excuse is that I wanted too much too fast too soon using little or no planning or thinking. Thats good though for me as I usually learn by my mistakes and hope to when I fully retire yank it all up and start over again. I can only say for beginners that planning is really essential.
Graduate of many School of Hard Knocks Institutes
Independent Operator wrote: cabbage wrote:OK,This is where I put on my wellies and ask a few questions... You say that your soil is mostly sand and that you have subsidence. They question is then -why are you building on to it? I would have sunk piles -either wooden posts or lengths of pipe into the surface and built on top of that. If the point loading of your soil is so poor then you might have to investigate building your roadbed on a sub bed of crushed brick hammered into the soil. The final solution could be a concrete of some kind -reynolds mix or hyper tufa come to mind as a first stop. My previous railway was 150mm x 25mm planks over 25mm x 50mm stretchers -a classic "plank on post" system. This proved strong enough to take my weight (105kg) and rigid enough not to warp between posts. It will be this system that I use for my next railway.regardsralph Ralph:My only excuse is that I wanted too much too fast too soon using little or no planning or thinking. Thats good though for me as I usually learn by my mistakes and hope to when I fully retire yank it all up and start over again. I can only say for beginners that planning is really essential.Graduate of many School of Hard Knocks Institutes
This was my thinking when I first got my first set. I wanted to have a large layout with everything. After reading this site and others, I am learning to take my time and start small. The best advise I got was to start small and work one section at time. Great way to save money. you dont need anything large to really enjoy it. Like I said before, I enjoy watching the trains run. Some of the best RR I have seen are simple layouts with great detail.
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