$$$ must you be rich to run garden trains?

[hoofe116]

Hoofe,

"Loading Gauge" refers to the height and width of the loco. Growing up in Colonial Rhodesia I was used to CAPE loading gauge of 13 feet high by 10 feet wide on 3 feet 6 inch gauge track -the std UK loading gauge is 12 feet high by 8 feet 6 inches wide on 4 feet 8 ½ inch guage track.

viz:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/loadgauge/loadgauge.htm

As to the largest scale tried on 45mm track then you are looking at models of Sir Arthur Heywoods "15inch Gauge" which would give you a scale of 30mm to the foot or 1:10(!) They really are big at this scale. You actually have a tank engine too!!!

viz:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/heywood/heywood.htm

As Sir Arthur's locomotives are true articulateds (his "radiating axles") then the problems with axle lateral play become redundant -the limit of cornering is in the amount of deflection that the axles can take. I have (see above) built Klein Lindener axles and I can assure you that they are fun!!!

regards

ralph

Cabbage:

You did me a huge favor! I had seen, then lost, the Heywood site. I was studying the mechanism some months ago, wondering if stiff springs would do for drive shafts. Mechanics aside, those are some very attractive engines in their own right. They're an good example of what I was alluding to when I spoke of the looks of the Victorian-era engines.

What 'loading' is named is what I usually think of as 'aspect ratio'.

I went to the hobby shop some 25 miles away Saturday. I got a handful of Plastruct and a selection of glues and a tube of Squadron Green. I have to admit to being underwhelmed by the Plastruct pieces--they don't seem that difficult to fabricate, though I must try it first. But at least I've got a better sense of the types of materials commonly used.

Also, I laid down a tad over $30 for two Model RR -pubbed magazines on DCC. I've read 'em both and don't really care for what I've learned. Seems signal strength is weak and the system is sensitive to noise and track variations. Plus, there's a certain amount of wiring involved, though certainly not like track power w. blocks.

I'm going to track power. It's cheap and I understand it. Perhaps in a few years I'll go with R/C and battery. With a small PP, single-operator layout like mine, there won't be that much wiring anyway. I'm going to use open-benchwork, so running what little there will be won't be a big problem.

What is DCS control?

Did get a bit more of the wife's studio worked on today. Perhaps by the end of the month I can begin actually building the first section of benchwork.

Les W.

[hoofe116]

 

 

But heck, they're paying my SS, I should complain?

 

 

This hobby has lots of room for any to model what ever they choose and enjoy modeling   

Byron

Well, one thing, I don't pay your SS! And two, it is right hobby has lot of room for many people even Toads!

Neither do I for that matter right now !!!!!

Byron

Seems I've struck a nerve. Snicker.

Les W.

[EMPIRE II LINE]

 

But heck, they're paying my SS, I should complain?

 

 

This hobby has lots of room for any to model what ever they choose and enjoy modeling   

Byron

Well, one thing, I don't pay your SS! And two, it is right hobby has lot of room for many people even Toads!

Neither do I for that matter right now !!!!!

Byron

[Anonymous]

 

But heck, they're paying my SS, I should complain?

 

 

This hobby has lots of room for any to model what ever they choose and enjoy modeling   

Byron

Well, one thing, I don't pay your SS! And two, it is right hobby has lot of room for many people even Toads!

[EMPIRE II LINE]

 

El: A good, no-nonsense method to the goal. It moves the topic back to 'RTR' rather than scratchbuilding, which might serve to suppress the Empire of the Amphibians, both of whom seem to be bored with this thread. But heck, they're paying my SS, I should complain?

 

 

We all, CAN, get our "Hoofe" stuck !!!..... in a "Rut" at times. This hobby has lots of room for any to model what ever they choose and enjoy modeling, "I", for one, love to model and choose, as I've already said, that which "I" personally observed and enjoyed seeing as a child, growing-up, so do it !!!!   

Byron

[Anonymous]

Have a GREAT Day!

Toad

[cabbage]

Hoofe,

"Loading Gauge" refers to the height and width of the loco. Growing up in Colonial Rhodesia I was used to CAPE loading gauge of 13 feet high by 10 feet wide on 3 feet 6 inch gauge track -the std UK loading gauge is 12 feet high by 8 feet 6 inches wide on 4 feet 8 ½ inch guage track.

viz:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/loadgauge/loadgauge.htm

As to the largest scale tried on 45mm track then you are looking at models of Sir Arthur Heywoods "15inch Gauge" which would give you a scale of 30mm to the foot or 1:10(!) They really are big at this scale. You actually have a tank engine too!!!

viz:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/heywood/heywood.htm

As Sir Arthur's locomotives are true articulateds (his "radiating axles") then the problems with axle lateral play become redundant -the limit of cornering is in the amount of deflection that the axles can take. I have (see above) built Klein Lindener axles and I can assure you that they are fun!!!

regards

ralph

[hoofe116]

Cabbage:

Always glad to hear your thoughts. Thanks for the lucid explanation on 'gauge' vs 'scale'. I'm gonna print that off if I can.

'Standard loading' pertains to the weight of a loco on each axle, or each driver?

One of the things that I wanted to do was try 'narrow gauge'. Coming from a Lionel postwar layout years ago where that was impossible, and after laying up 'tonnes' of HO for my retirement only to find I couldn't see it, manipulate it, and intensly disliked the fiddly problems associated with keeping a train on the rails, I gave up and sold the lot. Now what? Just by accident I discovered G gauge. For a retired machinist like me, it's perfect. It'll still fit inside the house in the manner I want to operate: a SL switching operation. And I can build/modify it. Actually, having been forced inside turned out to be a blessing.

Next I discovered that G gauge is actually a form of narrow gauge. Now what? Remember, proportionality is still a chancy concept to me, though I do make my way through the common scales associated with G: 1:20.3; 1:29, etc. It seems your 25mm is going to be ... huge. That'd be 1":1', correct? As an aside, what's the largest scale yet tried with 45mm gauge? In other words, where do instability problems begin when width exceeds gauge?

Now I'm back to selecting a narrow gauge for my narrow gauge. I will have it, yes I will. Someone on the board suggested O gauge (32mm?). I need to lay some rail out and see how it looks. I want at least some bit of dual-gauge trackage and switching. Think of the problems to be worked out! (That's part of the attraction to me.) And eventually, in the far distant future, I want to try mine trackage on the order of 12-15 inch in real world dimensions. Scaled down, of course. 'Dinkys' (or Dinkies) ran on them, they were popular before WW1.

I will get back with you on the English engine. I have an affinity for tank engines. Birth defect, or something. And there's that 9 foot diameter monster we've already spoken of, has two drivers and I think it's a 4-2-4. And remember Peter Jones' article on the traction engines converted to run on rails? I've been looking for a suitably sized traction engine around here and haven't turned one up. No big thing, I'll build one from scratch.

For the copper problem, yes, I'd considered copper foil. One thing I despise is maintenance, and I can see a lot of problems with that stuff. And, I understand flattened copper better. It allows for soldering where needed, for one thing. And it does--save for color--mimic the strap rail I will use in thickness as well as width.

Cheers,

Les W on the frosty banks of the Missouri.

 

[cabbage]

Hoofe,

Now that I have finished eating my Sunday Tea I should get down to some work -so I will answer your questions instead(!)

1: I would have been the 7th generation of my family to work on the Railways -I grew up around Beyer Peacock and Henschel und Sohn locomotives in Bulawayo Rhodesia. Later when we moved to the UK I grew up in Derby Locomotive works and Technical plant. I was actually one of the first children to test the "Flying Tea Tray" Maglev that was designed there.

2: There isn't really a correlation between track gauge and scale of the locos that run on it. I use 32mm and 63.5mm or if you prefer gauge "0" and gauge "3". On these I run 7mm, 16mm, 13.5mm and (soon!) 25mm scale models. I grew up in what would be called a narrow gauge railway system -despite the fact that the locomotives are larger than the UK std loading!!!

3: I am one of those people who do not seem to have a gramme of "Whimsy" in them. For me any locomotive -or rolling stock item -has to have either existed or have been designed to be built. Thus it is quite "OK" for me to have a double decker elephant transporter wagon with the "State Required"chicken enclosures -or a steam locomotive on stilts with marine propellors to help it through flooded river crossings. I admire CJ Walas's work -but I cannot figure out how he does it. (If truth be told he can't figure out how I get some of my stuff to work either!)

4: There is a difference!

16mm scale uses 16mm to the foot scale (1:19.1) and thus 32mm track (or gauge "0") becomes the PERFECT scale track for a 2 feet narrow gauge prototype. 7/8ths scale uses 7/8ths of an inch to the foot (1:13.5) and thus 45mm track (or gauge "1") becomes the PERFECT scale track for a 2 feet narrow gauge prototype.

BOTH of them are for modelling 2 feet narrow gauge.

16mm is more popular in the UK and Commonwealth and 7/8ths is more popular in North America.

5: There are a great wealth of information available on the web. HOWEVER I get my formulae and information from books printed in the early part of the 20th Century -mostly by Henry Greenly and "LBSC" (Lillian Lawrence). The lateral play in axles is a requirement of any loco. There is a simple, (says he!), formula for calculating the amount of play needed in a central axle. The "Fount of all Wisdom" for all these is "Model Railways" by Henry Greenly. I will willing scan anything that you want, I warn you you may find the 20th century "Edwardian Aenglish" spellings -quaint!!!

Building a locomotive of the "english style" is actually quite easy -far so in fact than an american or continental type. I have a number of books on the subject, (suprise!), and if you let me know what sort of locomotive you are looking for -then I will do my best to provide you wth some drawings.

As to your copper problem -have you thought of using the self adhesive copper tape used by dolls houses? This is commonly used to provide (third rail) systems to locos here in the UK.

(excuse me -I really must get back to work!)

regards

ralph

[hoofe116]

I happened to be a tad down tonight and saw this old thread had been reopened. I'm glad I dropped in.

You two guys are an inspiration to me. Take a look from my perspective:

1) I know beans about 1:1 rr'ing and how various engines should look.

2) I have difficulty, lo still yet I don't get the numerical connection between track gauge and rolling stock size. People have explained it. I just don't 'get' it. It took awhile for the conversion factor of 1:20.3 to sink in. I think Allterrain dropped the magic dime and it became clear.

3) I know what I like, but I don't know if it's prototypical, and while I care, I don't overly so. Just no 'Hogwarts' for me, please. I'll pass.

4) I cannot fathom the difference between 16mm and 7/8, and the terms seem to be used loosely. Or they're so far different 'everyone knows'. But having never seen either, I have no frame of reference.

5) I like oddball-looking stuff, or the 'British Vintage Look' for lack of a better term. Those Victorian-era engines are magnificent, even in scale. Most stuff around is RTR which is fine, but I want to build. Figuring out where to start has been a series of have-to's due to things outside this column.

Now both Vic and Cabbage have posted some really attention-grabbing photos. And lo, look at the imaginative use of HW engines. And lo, one can calculate ahead the needed radius of a given wheelbase? And, lateral play in the axles is a necessary thing? Where might one go look for such information?

Thank you. I'm inspired, if nothing else.

BTW, there is a way to lay strips of copper on plastic track. You need a sliproll, though. Possibly a bead-roller would work, but I don't have one. (Harbor Freight sells a 12" 'metal fabrication Machine' for $70 on sale). I used 12 ga solid copper; when rolled down to .011-.015 inch will almost exactly cover the top of a plastic rail. I haven't gotten to solder the lengths together yet, but don't look for any problem. Soon as I do, I'll figure out how to post if anyone wants to know.

Les W.

[enginear]

Yeah, most of my track and switches came from ridge road station also. Very helpful people there and a really nice layout setup in store ( pete's trains get me jealous). I don't look to solder my track cause it's stainless and I've heard very difficult to do. I might do the next level in brass to save cash. The few pieces on the layout seem to stay very clean but they're indoors.

I also was thinking of trying the accurail code 332 brass if it lines up with my aristo., Joe

[piercedan]

Soldering jumpers at track connections is good, and use rail clamps at switches only for easy removal.  Be sure to clean the track with a braass wire brush and then usenon-acid flux on the rail forbetter contact/faster soldering.

 I have been buying used track at $1 tio $2 per foot.  I found brand new 1 foot sections at both the ECLSTS ans at the Springfield Big E train show in MA.  I even found LGB switches (R1) at $30 a pair twice this year, and the 3 way Y for $55.00 with EPL drives attached.

Bargains are there, you just have to look for them.  Join a train club and you will find members swap and sell items often.

I plan on a early spring vacation in York at the end of March and there are great deals there.  Of course there is hotle and meals, but I write that off mentally as a vacation, not a train cost.  Trains are the fun of the vacation.

 

 Are you near Rochester, NY?  I internet order from Ridgeroadstation.com, located nothwwest of Rochester.

 

[enginear]

well we're so far off here goes.... First I used to be a sound engineer/guitar tech for the Del Fuegos and we warmed up for ZZTOP on part of the Eliminator tour in '86 till we got the boot. Them guys are the coolest I've ever met. Have you tried deal or no deal cause they're casting on their home page right now! Think of the railroad you could build.

[Anonymous]

Cab, neat job!

I am still waiting for the $80 Mill to hit.

 

[cabbage]

I have to seconds Vics statement... Here is an sample of photos from one of my later 16mm builds. The first shot shows the chassis -which is made from offcuts of 3mm steel plate from the local stock holders scrap bin -total cost £0.50p. These were then welded together by a friend total cost -1 pint of beer.



The wingtanks are added and the base plate (a piece of 3mm MDF packing from the latest piece of IKEA bedroom furniture for my son to destroy...)



Add a boiler (a length of drain tube) and some available Kinder eggs (it was Easter)...



Add the cab roof and there you are, a typical German Klein-Lindener tank locomotive.



The bodywork is made from maybe 2 A4 sheets of Plasticard and the only commercially produced items on it were the wheels and the smoke stack. So, I built it out of scraps and junk and the only money I laid out for parts ran to £27.75p (inc p&p)



regards

ralph

[vsmith]

This was a reply to another topic on another forum across the wide blue sea, but I thought I would share it here as well.

Since I'm cash strapped, I have lately been using HLW Macks for a series of little steam based tram bashes, they work quite nicely IMHO

Whadahellizit #1



Whadahellizit #2



Whadahellizit #3



Whadahellizit #4 (not steam but what the hey)



#5 is in the pipeline

These are $40 engines and are terrific pullers for their size, and use bits of plumbing pipe and crapper scrappers collected off Ebay or from $40 dollar xmas tree sets, this hobby is literally as cheap or expensive as you want it to be and is only limited by your creativity and willingness to get your hands dirty, dive in - the waters fine 

[Anonymous]

I really feel for folks like yourself coming along now trying to get started up in the hobby.  The cost of track now makes getting started increasingly more difficult.  I NEVER in a million years thought I would end up with the number of engines, rollinging stock or track that I do now.  When you are first getting started, it seems like you will never be able to afford alot of stuff, but over time your collection will grow if you can sacrifice from other areas.  Just try and hang in there, be patient as much as possible and it will come together evenutally.  :) 

I have to echo Marty's comments, I drive older used cars and fix them myself, don't take vacations, dont eat out, etc to be able to dump more money into the trains and for me it's all worth it.  I'd rather have what I have in trains than a new car sitting in the driveway.  Besides, once they're bought they cost almost nothing to operate and enjoy. 

Although I think you have it figured out now, with using SS rail, you can't run too long a stretch of track without proper feeders otherwise the electrical resistance of the SS rail will degrade the DCS signal.  See my site (DCS tips for more info):  www.rayman4449.dynip.com  That is probably the source of alot of your frustration, but one you get it setup right, your SS setup will be troublefree.  If you ever get stuck with the DCS stuff shoot me an email.  Email address is on my homepage.

Don't give up and hang in there!

Raymond

[hoofe116]

Back to the original question. I don't think you have to be rich...if you are smart, patient, reasonable and resourceful. 

Being smart and patient means waiting and watching for a deal to come along. Make a list of what you need and second choices, mark what you are willing/able to pay and stick to it. Many new (and quite a few not so new) people buy a lot of mismatched stuff that they aren't really happy with, or pay too much for something because they gotta have it NOW.--On that note, don't be afraid to sell your mistakes, even at a small loss, either. (Most of my stuff is second hand, bought off evilbay, swap meets, or from others on the various boards who decided what I wanted didn't fit with THEIR desires)

Being reasonable means not biting off more than you can chew. Most of those multi-hundred foot giga-layouts were built over a decade or so. Don't expect your empire to look like that overnight. Start small and expand as the budget allows. (My garden pike was 8' x 18'...due to the big "D", my current indoor layout is 5' x 8', but I still play with trains!)

Being resourceful means keeping your eyes open for stuff in the toy or craft departments, or anyplace else for that matter, that will work, or could be remade to work for what you want to do. (I currently have 7 buildings on my layout that were built from nearly identical kits - which I got on clearance - changing details and paint make each have their own personality. I also have a lot of bargain store items....)

Above all hobbies are supposed to be FUN. IMO Enjoying what you have, rather than constantly envying what the other guy has is part of that.

El: A good, no-nonsense method to the goal. It moves the topic back to 'RTR' rather than scratchbuilding, which might serve to suppress the Empire of the Amphibians, both of whom seem to be bored with this thread. But heck, they're paying my SS, I should complain?

RTR has a lot of virtues. My Spectrum Indie gave me a lot of insight into how a better-class engine should look. That's why I bought it--NIB. I got my calipers out and began measuring. And there's the 'Little Green LGB' I bought last year, the one with the boiler inside the cab, perfect condition, used. A delight every time I look at it. Will it fit in my era of RR? I doubt it, but it might. But I'm happy. The Indie definitely never will. Someday I'll sell it--it has served its purpose.

A major difficulty with the RTR stuff that I see as a relative newbie is that so much of it is made to varying scales, which the manufacturer doesn't mention. For example, the nice-looking products made by the HLW Co are sort of small, compared to B'mann. I bought a few dump cars and gondola kits that might work out later on. I still don't know what scale they are. Newcomers soon find out that there's no 'real scale', particularly in G gauge. That 'compromises have to be made'. That while the boiler's correct, the cab's low. Or somesuch. I think this is the single biggest pitfall for newbies coming into 'G Scale'. A term which should be carried in quotes, so far as I'm concerned. If not outright forbidden. Especially those moving up from the smaller scales, where time and acceptance have served to force most manufacturers into the same mold. (Pun! Okay, weak pun. I tried.)

The best thing about RTR, to me, is ... well, it's ready to run. How many would be enjoying this scale if they had to start with a set of plans?

Lastly, there's no definition of the word 'rich'. That's a big problem. What's a 'big' layout?

Les W.

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

Enginear,

Is there any more questions we can help you with?

About being rich, it really aint got noting to do with it. I am on a fixed income, finialy in 14 yrs but I have one.

I can tell you I save pocket change and ask the family to do so for me.

Some stuff you can make on your own, ask your mom & pop hardware store for glass (broken) for your windows and they also have weird cut wood that can not be sold.

Dollar stores (some) can be great choice of stuff, walk every isle and think what can I make or what am I making now!

Right now I am making a water tower (yeah I picked the tools back up after the passing of my father) and found some stuff in the contractors junk pile.

Need wood, go to a home being built, ask the people if you can have the wood in the ring for burning or the dumpster.

Pipe for tunnel, I think it needs to be 12" or more, you can find on contractors work sites, just ask, stop every time to!

Any questions, Ask us.

The Ole Toad

[hoofe116]

Toad:

What was the topic ??????

Gotta learn to keep up, dude. It's that kinda world!

[Anonymous]

Back to the original question. I don't think you have to be rich...if you are smart, patient, reasonable and resourceful. 

Being smart and patient means waiting and watching for a deal to come along. Make a list of what you need and second choices, mark what you are willing/able to pay and stick to it. Many new (and quite a few not so new) people buy a lot of mismatched stuff that they aren't really happy with, or pay too much for something because they gotta have it NOW.--On that note, don't be afraid to sell your mistakes, even at a small loss, either. (Most of my stuff is second hand, bought off evilbay, swap meets, or from others on the various boards who decided what I wanted didn't fit with THEIR desires)

Being reasonable means not biting off more than you can chew. Most of those multi-hundred foot giga-layouts were built over a decade or so. Don't expect your empire to look like that overnight. Start small and expand as the budget allows. (My garden pike was 8' x 18'...due to the big "D", my current indoor layout is 5' x 8', but I still play with trains!)

Being resourceful means keeping your eyes open for stuff in the toy or craft departments, or anyplace else for that matter, that will work, or could be remade to work for what you want to do. (I currently have 7 buildings on my layout that were built from nearly identical kits - which I got on clearance - changing details and paint make each have their own personality. I also have a lot of bargain store items....)

Above all hobbies are supposed to be FUN. IMO Enjoying what you have, rather than constantly envying what the other guy has is part of that.

[EMPIRE II LINE]

Toad:

What was the topic ??????

[hoofe116]

Toad:

[Anonymous]

Dennis:

I missed reading your post until now.

I for one would be very glad to see pictures of your work--and works in progress. I haven't gotten far enough into my first one to take pixes. It's just a pile of parts. An incomplete pile, at that.

Les W.

[hoofe116]

Dennis:

I missed reading your post until now.

I for one would be very glad to see pictures of your work--and works in progress. I haven't gotten far enough into my first one to take pixes. It's just a pile of parts. An incomplete pile, at that.

Les W.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

So to answer the question, no; but it sure helps a heck of a lot!

[EMPIRE II LINE]

[user="ToadFrog&WhiteLightn"]

Are we still on the topic or just rolling what we want to hear?

Gumpy Ole Toad

EH-E-E-E.....Maybe the wheels'l just fall off..... 

[Anonymous]

Are we still on the topic or just rolling what we want to hear?

Gumpy Ole Toad

[hoofe116]

All this talk about building things from scratch is there any good web sites that deals with the basics of electronics and building structures.  If no good sites any good books you recomend.

Snow:

Try this site: http://www.openbookproject.net//electricCircuits/

Les Whitaker