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K-Line smoking caboose???????

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Posted by dougdagrump on Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:11 PM

Check out this link, it will take care of the problems of "Caboose China Syndrome". I have the same caboose that they use in the demo, however I haven't done it yet because I would prefer a fan driven smoker instead of that irritating plastic puffer system. Big Smile [:D]

http://www.electricrr.com/SmokingCaboose/Caboose.htm

Any other of the old geezers, like me, remember the baseball cards in the spokes of your bicycle trick? That is exactly what that puffer system sounds like to me. Disapprove [V]

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Posted by lionelsoni on Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:25 PM

No.  That will be 30 ohms.

You could do a 2x2 series-parallel circuit with 4 of them, which would raise the power rating to 2 watts while keeping the resistance at 15 ohms.  However, I think 2 watts is cutting it a little close.  A 3x3 series-parallel circuit would get you up to 4.5 watts, which is enough, but would use a whopping 9 resistors.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by bibeaud on Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:19 PM
Radio shack does carry a 15 ohm resistor that is rated for 1/2 watt.  Will two of these connected together one after the other (in series) work?
David
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Posted by alexweiihman on Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:15 PM
 bibeaud wrote:

 alexweiihman wrote:
I talked to some one who use to work for K-line and they said to add a 15om
resistor in that unit because alot of people were running the caboose with
tmcc and the resistor orginally came with it couldn`t handle that
much current.

 

What wattage should the 15 ohm resister be able to handle?  I just picked up some 10 ohm resisters at Radio Shack (some could carry either 1/4 or 1/2 watt and the others were for 1 watt)  I was hoping the 10 ohm would be sufficient enough since I did not see any 15 ohm.  I believe I saw 100 and 150 ohm resisters though (I could be wrong since the drawers had many types).  Putting one of these in line with the smoke unit should be a "simple" modification (which is what I was looking for since I only plan to run these when running TMCC or DCS)

Thanks!

David

 

I dont know exactly if ten would work but the safest bet would be 15 om

K-Line The Difference is in the Details
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Posted by lionelsoni on Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:48 PM

Impossible to say without some measurements.  However, if we assume that 15 ohms is the right value and guess that it was intended to reduce the voltage by about 5 volts, from 18 to 13, then the power that it has to handle is 1 2/3 watt.  To keep the resistor cool, I would triple it, to at least 5 watts.

Radio Shack sells 10-ohm, 1-watt resistors (271-151).  Two of these in parallel would be 5 ohms, 2 watts, which would be ample to handle the one-third of the power, 556 milliwatts, that it would be called upon to if put in series with their 10-ohm, 10-watt resistor (271-132).

It would be neater to find a 15-ohm, 5- or 10-watt resistor from a distributor like Mouser or Digi-key, however.  Mouser has a 5-watt (526-5W015) for $.35.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by bibeaud on Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:09 PM

 alexweiihman wrote:
I talked to some one who use to work for K-line and they said to add a 15om
resistor in that unit because alot of people were running the caboose with
tmcc and the resistor orginally came with it couldn`t handle that
much current.

 

What wattage should the 15 ohm resister be able to handle?  I just picked up some 10 ohm resisters at Radio Shack (some could carry either 1/4 or 1/2 watt and the others were for 1 watt)  I was hoping the 10 ohm would be sufficient enough since I did not see any 15 ohm.  I believe I saw 100 and 150 ohm resisters though (I could be wrong since the drawers had many types).  Putting one of these in line with the smoke unit should be a "simple" modification (which is what I was looking for since I only plan to run these when running TMCC or DCS)

Thanks!

David

David
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Posted by alexweiihman on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:41 PM
I talked to some one who use to work for K-line and they said to add a 15om
resistor in that unit because alot of people were running the caboose with
tmcc and the resistor orginally came with it couldn`t handle that
much current.
K-Line The Difference is in the Details
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:50 PM

The TMCC manual does call for 18V.  I haven't tried running on lesser.  Kinda late to test my smoking caboose on lower voltage now. Wink [;)]

Bruce Webster

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:06 PM
All three of my PW ZW's are on 18V.  Useed a digital volt meter and set them.  Then painted a mark for each setting.  Runn my switch voltage at 16V on my KW.  Powering accessories at 12 V on the other side of that KW.  No problems what so ever.

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Posted by csxt30 on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:03 PM

I open my throttles on my PW Z W all the way almost all of the time but sometimes I cut it back a couple volts to save on my bulbs. I never had a problem except once with a new Lionel caboose that the wires inside of it were so tiny it burnt them all up, now, no lights or smoke in it & I removed the rest of the wires !   

Thanks, John

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Posted by CSXect on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 4:40 PM

Oops [oops]

Just what is an exceptable(recomended voltage) for TMCC???Dunce [D)]

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Posted by hondo52 on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 9:44 AM

Tell me something here. Why does everybody run everything at 18 volts on your TMCC..................

I have been runnin my TMCC at 14-16 volts and haven't had any problems with stuff burning out or getting to hot. I have a few K-line smokin' cabooses and a few TMCC engines with smoke and haven't had any problems. They all smoke like a champ. I never had mine track voltage set at 18 volts or higher and I'm using the old ZW's and the KW's.

I always see topic being brought up. Maybe you guys should cut back on your track voltage.

HevCool [8D] 

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Posted by phillyreading on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 7:39 AM

Chief,

The K-Line caboose works fine in regular control(Non TMCC or Non DCS). 

Some of the other guys may have a fix for using it in command mode with 18 volts constantly supplied to the track.  If the original smoke unit fails I would just change it out to something better.

Lee F.

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Posted by CSXect on Monday, April 9, 2007 9:17 PM
 lionelsoni wrote:

An SPDT switch is an overkill for this.  All you really need is an SPST across the dropping resistor.  If you have a suitable SPDT, it will work of course; but it might be possible to find a smaller, less obtrusive SPST.

 

Cheap and dirty trick......I like itBow [bow] must be a technician as an engineer would over think itWhistling [:-^]

Will have to get a smoking caboose just to tryout the circuit or maybe just a smoke unit.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, April 9, 2007 8:47 PM

An SPDT switch is an overkill for this.  All you really need is an SPST across the dropping resistor.  If you have a suitable SPDT, it will work of course; but it might be possible to find a smaller, less obtrusive SPST.

As for sizing the resistor, I would put a power resistor, perhaps 1 ohm, 10 watts, in series first and adjust the total voltage to get the best operation--enough smoke but not too hot.  Then measure the voltage across the resistor and the voltage across the generator.  (If the voltage across the resistor is too small to measure accurately, try repeating the test using a larger resistance.)  Divide the resistor's voltage by its resistance to get I, the generator current.  Subtract the generator's voltage from 18 volts (if that is the voltage you're operating at) to get E, the voltage drop needed.  The resistor value needed is E/I.  The power rating should be at least E*I, but using several times that will keep the resistor much cooler.  Remember that whatever voltage doesn't appear across the generator will be across the dropping resistor, which you don't want to get too hot either.

Doing it this way, with the smoke generator actually running, avoids the pitfall of guessing wrong about the best voltage to supply to it.  And, by doing the measurements with the generator running and hot, you take into account the fact that its resistance goes up somewhat with temperature.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 9, 2007 7:41 PM
 brwebster wrote:

One question though, Lisa....how long did it take you to find a phillips screwdriver that fit the holes to remove the body? Banged Head [banghead]

Luckily, my hubby has a set of very small straight and phillips - only as long as it took me to FIND them in all his junk!

Bruce - Pay no attention to Buckeye - have no idea what he's yakking about - guess he had too many EASTER EGGS!!

Shush-up Buckeye - we're trying to have an INTELLIGENT conversation! Laugh [(-D]

Lisa

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 9, 2007 7:10 PM
 Buckeye Riveter wrote:
 brwebster wrote:

One question though, Lisa....how long did it take you to find a phillips screwdriver that fit the holes to remove the body? Banged Head [banghead]

Bruce Webster

Thank you, Bruce!!!!  Bow [bow]  I appreciate you taking my place as Lisa's target.  Bow [bow]

Buckeye,

  I asked the question because finding the exact size phillips to access the burried K-Line body mount screws is near impossible.  I certainly hope my wording didn't offend in a way that I can't understand.  It was not my intention.  Just in case though, I'm keeping my head down Wink [;)]

Bruce (The Nawthun Nawthuner) Webster

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Posted by CSXect on Monday, April 9, 2007 6:37 PM
 lionelsoni wrote:

No fan?

A simple series resistor will reduce the voltage from 18 volts, but also from any lower voltage when running conventionally.  Which gets us back to a switch.

adding the switch would be no problem at allMy 2 cents [2c] you would need a spdt switch and a resister, so all we need is for some one to measure the current from the smoke unit and use ohms law to figure out the resistanceCool [8D]

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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Monday, April 9, 2007 6:17 PM
 brwebster wrote:

One question though, Lisa....how long did it take you to find a phillips screwdriver that fit the holes to remove the body? Banged Head [banghead]

Bruce Webster

Thank you, Bruce!!!!  Bow [bow]  I appreciate you taking my place as Lisa's target.  Bow [bow]

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..

Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR

TCA 09-64284

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 9, 2007 6:01 PM
 Lisa-n-NC wrote:

Bruce - I have that exact same caboose.  It never smoked well, so I turned off the unit after a couple of runs.  I also had the same problem with the windows on the top and the portholes popping out.  It was a major feat getting the body off and the windows back in and properly aligned.  Glad to see this post - think I'll keep the smoke switch in the OFF position!Sad [:(]

Lisa

Lisa,

I really had no issues with the smoke unit when running under conventional control for 2 months.  The smoke emitted wasn't spectacular since there's nothing pushing it out like the puffer mechanism in an engine.   The natural draw from air passing by the chimney openings ( when the caboose is moving ) is what pulls the smoke from inside.  I seldom race my equipment so there was rarely sufficient electical current going to the caboose to generate much heat nor air draw.  That changed with full time 18V using TMCC. 

When the time comes I think I'll experiment with a fan driven smoke unit in connection with the resistors others have mentioned.  The goal would be to keep everything working at lower smoke eliment temperatures and slow fan speed, effectively avoiding heat buildup inside the caboose while preventing eliment burnout.

One question though, Lisa....how long did it take you to find a phillips screwdriver that fit the holes to remove the body? Banged Head [banghead]

Bruce Webster

 

 

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, April 9, 2007 4:56 PM

No fan?

A simple series resistor will reduce the voltage from 18 volts, but also from any lower voltage when running conventionally.  Which gets us back to a switch.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by CSXect on Monday, April 9, 2007 4:37 PM
 lionelsoni wrote:

 

I can't recommend this arrangement, since I don't know what is in the smoke generator, whether it can be operated on DC, nor, if it can, what a suitable DC voltage for it is.

I won't swear to it but the heating element is basicly a resistive device and should heat up dc or ac.

come to think of it you probably dont need a a rectifier and voltage regulator, but instead a simple voltage divider circuitBlack Eye [B)] but you need to know the resistance of the smoke unit to figure what resistor you need. Hmmmmm

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, April 9, 2007 9:30 AM

David, the input circuit to the bridge rectifier comes from the pickup and the wheels.  You must interrupt both sides of the circuit to the smoke generator.  If the side of the circuit from the wheels comes through the caboose's frame and the mounting of the generator, you will have to insulate the generator from the frame.  In any case, the ~ terminals of the bridge rectifier connect to whatever the generator was connected to.

The electrolytic capacitor connects to the + and - output terminals of the rectifier, observing the polarity markings.  Often only the - terminal is marked.  The capacitor should be rated at at least 25 volts.  Not knowing what current the generator draws, I can't tell you how much capacitance you will need.

The input terminal of the regulator (which should also be rated for 25 volts input) goes to the + terminals of the rectifier and capacitor.  The common terminal of the regulator goes to the - terminals of the rectifier and capacitor.  The smoke generator connects to the regulator's output terminal and the - terminals of the rectifier and capacitor.

I can't recommend this arrangement, since I don't know what is in the smoke generator, whether it can be operated on DC, nor, if it can, what a suitable DC voltage for it is.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 9, 2007 7:46 AM

Bruce - I have that exact same caboose.  It never smoked well, so I turned off the unit after a couple of runs.  I also had the same problem with the windows on the top and the portholes popping out.  It was a major feat getting the body off and the windows back in and properly aligned.  Glad to see this post - think I'll keep the smoke switch in the OFF position!Sad [:(]

Lisa

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Posted by bibeaud on Monday, April 9, 2007 6:06 AM

 CSXect wrote:
I would suggest a bridge rectifier a small electrolitic capacitor a voltage regulator in a simple power supply circuit. This should work but no smoke with power at anything under the voltage regulators output example if you use a 12 volt regulator and track power is at 10 you maynot get enough power out of circuit to engauge the smoke unit.Dunce [D)]Blindfold [X-)]Banged Head [banghead]My 2 cents [2c]

CSXect,

Where would I attach the small electrolitic capacitor?  I was thinking that I could intercept the power wire to the smoke unit and insert the bridge rectifier and connect the voltage regulator to that (both are three prong).  The legs would be shortened and shrinkwraped to prevent a short circuit.  This mod would only work when operating under TMCC or DCS since a switch was not included.

Thanks!

David

David
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 8, 2007 12:49 PM
 dwiemer wrote:

Chief, Bruce, others with the K-Line caboose.  I read a thread about this some time ago and K-Line did have a problem with the glue that they used to install the windows in a run of these caboose(s).  I believe they just reglued them.  I would not be too concerned about touching the sides for as was the case, if the glue fails, eventually, the windows would fall out regardless of normal touch/wear.  So, if it fails, re-glue.  I wish I could recall what type of glue they used, but I am sure you can figure it out.

Dennis

Dennis,

  The thin wipe of glue I noticed on the porthole edges didn't seem sufficient enough to grab the plastic body.  Couple this with the body paint on the inside window edges (which has been factory scraped off but not well enough ) and the end result is poor adhesion.  With a little extra prep I reglued these on using good old regular plastic model cement.  It seems to have held up to my ham handed 2nd disassembly during the smoke unit inspection. 

  It's so easy to accidentally handle the body in just the wrong place when trying to disassemble/assemble it.  It's a bit of a juggling act holding the vertical end railings away from the roof while trying to dislodge or install the body to the base.   In no time you find you've popped out a porthole or two by a well intentioned but misplaced thumb or finger. 

Bruce Webster

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Sunday, April 8, 2007 9:55 AM
Several great suggestions.  What ever I do, I will have a switch to switch it from straight voltage [for conventional] to reduced voltage for command.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by CSXect on Saturday, April 7, 2007 9:57 PM
I would suggest a bridge rectifier a small electrolitic capacitor a voltage regulator in a simple power supply circuit. This should work but no smoke with power at anything under the voltage regulators output example if you use a 12 volt regulator and track power is at 10 you maynot get enough power out of circuit to engauge the smoke unit.Dunce [D)]Blindfold [X-)]Banged Head [banghead]My 2 cents [2c]
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Posted by ChiefEagles on Saturday, April 7, 2007 9:12 PM
Guys, mine is extended vision and not porthole.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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