Where did the innocence go...?

[Anonymous]

 A question to All. Seems I caused a thread to be locked; Lionel vs. MTH. I'm sorry. I figured I'd start out hot, and see where it would go. The forum members showed their true control and maturity; and should be commended for such. Maybe all is not lost. I stated fact, in my post. No made up stories or rumors, and yet the final posts stated I was a "troll". Where did my opinion come from?

Now, back to the question at hand. Where did the innocence go? I grew up with a "family curse"...trains. I'm being sarcastic. If I put my real name, some would be shocked, some understanding, and some would smack me in the head for my last post. Even with this post, some may be able to put 2 and 2 together. I grew up in the 70's, watching the two loops of standard gauge around my grandparents christmas tree in the basement, only able to admire them in aww. Behind the tree, were 20 ft long shelves, floor to ceiling, packed with standard gauge. You could never touch, just look. In the the late 70's, Dad bought me a Blue Streak set. The next year my Mom, bought me an American Flyer set. The year after that I bought a brown paper bag of American Flyer cars and extras, from the baby sitter's son for $20. My first used find. In my teens, HO, caught my interest, and the Lionel/Flyer were packed away, safely. When I was 21, my cousin and I made a run at a 8x14' layout, in dad's basement. We ripped it down, 5 months later, due to cars, women, and lack of interest, due to the previous. I dabbled seasonally, with small diaromas, and buildings, while in our apartments with my wife. For about 10years, I did nothing with trains.

Last year, I got totally immersed again, to the point of buying my first Standard gauge set, from the estate of my grandparents. My uncle had helped me pick out some good pieces.The trains I could only stare at and dream of. I had some extra money at the time, and continued to buy, for a couple of months. Built a 8x12' layout with 7 loops of trains running(1 std.,1 Amer flyer, 5 O gauge) My first 2 sets were part of it. I learned a lot, real quick at meets, and at the local train shop. I also was brought up to date, on all the "political and legal" issues plagueing this industry/hobby. Trains keep my mind pure, and clean. They keep me young at heart. I could easily, fall asleep in the local train shop, on the floor, just staring at all of them. They remind me of a better time, in the world, and people long past away. So, why does one mans "axe" and greed have to ruin the image of my hobby. I won't buy a MTH! I'm bummed to see K-Line absorbed by Lionel, but I'm glad to see Lionel keeping the line alive. I'm always trying to decide between Williams and Lionel, for my next piece. Atlas makes a niece product for the money, and I'll probably buy some later. Hopefully all will learn to play nice again. Flipping through the new Lionel and K-line catalogues, I can't wait to see what the future holds, for this hobby. My son and I are already experience it. It won't happen if we don't keep the innocence.

                                   

[Anonymous]

"So, why does one mans "axe" and greed have to ruin the image of my hobby. I won't buy a MTH! I'm bummed to see K-Line absorbed by Lionel, but I'm glad to see Lionel keeping the line alive."

----------------------

I think you answered your own question in that one sentence.  "I won't by a MTH."  So why even ask the "Lionel vs. MTH" question in the first place, since the only result can be to further inflame passions among others like you who have made up your minds that there has to be some sort of competition, not only between manufacturers, but also between those who buy these products?

If your image of the hobby is being "ruined," it's only because you're letting it be ruined by others (or even by yourself, if you stop to think about it).  This hobby is not a one-size-fits-all activity.  Never has been and never will be.  My advice to folks who have trouble with the opinionated state of things expressed on line is to simply avoid on-line discussion groups altogether, or to only read and respond to those threads that you are confident will provide some truly meaningful experience or learning.

A real love of this or any hobby is neither restricted by, nor dependent on, the feelings of others.  At its very core, a hobby is an individual pursuit.  Enjoy it for what it gives to you, not for what others say it should be.

[Dave Farquhar]

Allan pretty much said it all, but a couple of things really hit home. 

[Those] who have made up your minds that there has to be some sort of competition, not only between manufacturers, but also between those who buy these products?

You don't just see brand loyalty in toy trains. You also see it in pickup trucks (I seem to remember a commercial for either Ford or Chevy where someone said he'd rather walk than accept a ride in the "wrong" brand of truck) and certainly in computers, where I'm all too familiar. I was an anti-Microsoft guy about 10 years before that became cool. My computer of choice was Amiga, and I was a zealot. When the company that made it died, it was like losing a friend. And it wasn't worth it. Years later, when the Linux-vs.-anything-Microsoft battle started raging, I wrote in a published letter to a Linux zealot, "Criticism against Linux [or any other brand] is NOT a personal attack against you." I stated that repeatedly.

There is no reason whatsoever to take criticism against Lionel, MTH, or any other company personally. Trust me, they wouldn't do the same for you. There's no reason to give any corporate entity anything more than they give you. Ever.

My advice to folks who have trouble with the opinionated state of things expressed on line is to simply avoid on-line discussion groups altogether, or to only read and respond to those threads that you are confident will provide some truly meaningful experience or learning.

There is a lot of room for misunderstanding in the forums. It's easy to miss someone else's sarcasm, attempts at humor, or whatever, because you can't see facial expressions or hear tone of voice. And some people will say things online that they never would say in person because they can say things online that would cause someone to take a swing at them in person without any consequence.

Some of it is intentional, some very intentional (sadly, some people see getting other people mad as a form of entertainment). Keeping all of that in mind can help. If it doesn't, then it might be best to just stay away, or only read. And certainly there's no point in reading every thread. I probably read 1 in 10 threads, at most. You'll end up like me and only have a couple hundred posts after 3 years, rather than several thousand, but that's a small price to pay for sanity. 

A real love of this or any hobby is neither restricted by, nor dependent on, the feelings of others.  At its very core, a hobby is an individual pursuit.  Enjoy it for what it gives to you, not for what others say it should be.

I'll repeat what I told someone whose weekend was totally ruined by something he read on this very forum. This is a guy who's very passionate about his hobby and does some very unconventional things. He has a ton of great ideas and he's always very happy to share them, and never asks anything in return. At one point this week it sounded like he was going to leave the hobby, or at least stop sharing anything. I pleaded with him to reconsider. Why? The people who do what everyone else does don't advance the hobby at all. It's the people who try things that are unconventional or less popular that come up with the new ideas and cause the hobby to grow.

I've seen it happen in the computer field. Advancements aren't happening there the way they did 10 years ago, and certainly not the way they were 20 years ago. There was a lot more competition then, and people who were just plain weird could go and try their craziest ideas. A lot of those ideas worked, and the computer you're sitting at right now owes a lot to the crazy ideas of a lot of failed companies and projects.

If Lionel owned everything, or if MTH owned everything, or even if there were only two companies who owned everything between them, the end result would be that the hobby would die. There would be no reason for the company to take any risks.

[Anonymous]

"If Lionel owned everything, or if MTH owned everything, or even if there were only two companies who owned everything between them, the end result would be that the hobby would die."

-------------------

As it pretty nearly did in the 70s and early 80s--kept alive only be the collector community, which tends to be much maligned by some these days.  Back then, a few select folks, including Richard Kughn, Jerry Williams, and Maury Klein on the manufacturing end, kept things at least alive enough to keep the interest going.  Then, in the late 80s, along came Mike Wolf, who gave the the hobby a much-needed shot in the arm by focusing on operator interests in addition to the interest already demonstrated by collectors.  That spurred tremendous growth and activity (relatively speaking) in the hobby and, as a result, spurred competition.  Today, the O gauge hobbyists has NEVER had it so good in terms of variety, price range to select from, and the ever-persistent introduction of exciting new products of all types.

My feeling is if there's not enough out there now to stimulate someone's interest in the hobby, that person's interest probably never will be stimulated. 

[dbaker48]

Guys,  WOW !!!!!

alandorv - Thanks for posting this thread, I honestly do NOT believe YOU caused a thread to be locked.

 Allan and Dave -  I think the comments the two of you posted should become a standard default, so that when the "mine's better than your's" topic comes up.  These comments could be read as a referance point before proceeding with other posts.  (Sounds like censorship, huh?)  ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC, WELL STATED, ALL VALID POINTS!!! 

   

[laz 57]

Guys,  WOW !!!!!

alandorv - Thanks for posting this thread, I honestly do NOT believe YOU caused a thread to be locked.

 Allan and Dave -  I think the comments the two of you posted should become a standard default, so that when the "mine's better than your's" topic comes up.  These comments could be read as a referance point before proceeding with other posts.  (Sounds like censorship, huh?)  ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC, WELL STATED, ALL VALID POINTS!!! 

    

 

If Lionel owned everything, or if MTH owned everything, or even if there were only two companies who owned everything between them, the end result would be that the hobby would die. There would be no reason for the company to take any risks

 As DAVE stated in his last sentence,    Well said.

laz57

[Anonymous]

As a relative "youngster" in the hobby (41), I too am dismayed at the politics. If Mike Wolf had been a behind-the-scenes influence, and let his product speak for itself, things would be different. One can be put-off by his ambitious & competitive talk. Is it his fault, though, that media is what is is today, adding their own spin and bringing him into everyone's living room with his opinions and views? I'm not sure. Ten years ago, when I left my HO childhood collection in the dust and fell head-first into O gauge, I bought a few Lionel pieces and loads of MTH. I would stand at the counter of my local hobby shop & watch the older gents admire their Lionel Hudsons. When they'd give me a dirty look and ask why I was smirking, I'd laugh & point out all the flaws, warts and ugly screw heads on their loco. I would point out all of MTH's modern marvels, but they would beam with pride at their Lionel's nonetheless. Today, ironically, I buy more Lionel than ever. I have come to see a certain charm & dependability. But I need to discover it on my own. The more I reach out for info and interface with fellow hobbyists, the more confused & torn I get. It seems to be either North or South, black or white; little gray. I like them both, and (albeit too late) I have found enjoyment in K-lines later stuff. But I will admit that reading some of Mike Wolf's comments leave a bit of bad taste in my mouth. I am not so nieve to think that Lionel is pure of heart either. Business is business and maintaining a portion of market share can be brutal, I am sure. One thing I am sick of hearing from Mike Wolf is that crap about "a train set costing an average of 2-weeks pay for a middle-income working class" or something like that. The bottom line is that this hobby can be very expensive and that cost turns off a lot of potential candidates into the hobby. Even shrewd individuals searching for used, inexpensive fixer-uppers have to invest gas, internet or phone call fees, and lots of time, the most precious of commodities. You will never convince me that MTH or Lionel (not counting the local hobby retailer here) don't profit handsomely from this hobby, despite what they convey to the public. They need to get over that paradigm that because an average set cost the equivelant of 2-weeks pay in the 1930's that it is okay to charge the same today. When I look at the components, labor, technology, import fees, R&D, etc, for a $1300 engine, I find it hard to believe that the company has more than a few hundred dollars invested in the final product, depending on the production run (Lionel seems to run more than MTH, especially the high-end stuff). My advice to the majors: let the product speak for itself and price it affordably. And issue a self-imposed gag order when discussing current lawsuits and mud-slinging. Those topics have their place, and people want to know, but be selective where it get's discussed. In short, use good table manners!

[dochooter]

I am jumping in late and hope I don't inadvertantly disrupt a thread which to this point seems well thought out but what were the comments by Wolf that were inflamatory?  I don't follow the trade magazines.  If someone could direct me to the actual quote, I would appreciate it.

[nblum]

The public battle of words/ads/interviews has been mostly one sided, for one thing, and there is no one place you can find a summary of the comments you ask for.  It's been going on for over 10 years and began with derogatory, misleading ads in CTT in the mid 1990s.  I suggest you use one of the on-line indices to model railroad magazines and look for any interviews with Mike Wolf in the media, particularly in the time period 1995-2004 or so.  You'll find the comments and self-promoting, self-righteous, in your face attitude that some find objectionable.  Some of the most hostile,  unprofessional comments and behavior, in my and many other folks' opinions occurred at unrecorded talks at train shows or the TCA Museum.  This is a small industry and hobby, in which people get to meet the businessmen and women who make our toys, and there is a degree of personalization that simply does not occur with frying pans, dog collars and potato salad. ;)

[Bob Keller]

You know guys, some of you are like kids picking at that scab so that it never heals.

I really get sick and tired of having police these threads where the Orange bashers or the Purple Bashers try and recuit people to the Great Toy Train Civil War.

If you don't like MTH, don't but it.

It you don't like Lionel, don't buy it.

But for heaven's sake stop trying to drag everyone else into the fight. Aren't there enough real issues in the real world to get you blood pressure worked up?

I am tired of all this nonsense, and I suspct that others here are as well.

[Anonymous]

You know guys, some of you are like kids picking at that scab so that it never heals.

I really get sick and tired of having police these threads where the Orange bashers or the Purple Bashers try and recuit people to the Great Toy Train Civil War.

If you don't like MTH, don't but it.

It you don't like Lionel, don't buy it.

But for heaven's sake stop trying to drag everyone else into the fight. Aren't there enough real issues in the real world to get you blood pressure worked up?

I am tired of all this nonsense, and I suspct that others here are as well.

[3railguy]

The innocence left us when manufaturers began replacing ozone producing field wound motors with can motors which produce very little ozone. Ozone is an addictive chemical that excites our "happy cells". Unknowingly, we have been suffering withdrawls from not having enough field wound ozone in our blood stream, causing hate and discontent toward fellow tinplaters, lawsuits, lawsuit flame wars, trainwars, and a whole mess of other irrational behavior.

Oh and those miserable rubber band wheels over magnetraction. I won't go there.

[CSXect]

I see no sence or positive out come in bashing one manufacture or the other. If you have had a bad experience with the product of one of the manufactures or the other you can report it without making all inclusive statements and bashing other operators and collectors for the product they buy.

 

Now for a report on my experience so far

Only bought on MTH train and no problems with it

Have 5  items bought from Lionel and only one complaint, the side frames on a Seaboard switcher (S gauge) vibrate to the point that they fall off of truck after a few laps

Have some K-line as well and one problem that they took care off nicely

Trains are electronic/mechanical things and a certin percentage is going to fail in the first few hours of their life no matter who the maker is.

[Frank53]

I don't know where this thread started, or how it got into Lionel vs MTH myself. Personally, I have an avid interest in operating ANY O-Guage, three rail trains that run on tubular track and were made in America, specifrically New Jersey, prior to around 1958.

On-line forums have no doubt brought a new dimension to the hobby, and I will use myself as an example. Prior to a few years ago, my experience with o-gauge trains was building teh Christmas layout with my Dad in the 50's (very late 50's I might add) and 60's.

We had one 4x8 sheet of plywood, green grass paper (which we rolled up and used from year to year), three loops of tubular track - one on the requiste trestles and a trolley snaking it's way through any available space. Add to that three or four plasticville buildings, a milk platform, a cattle platform, a few dump cars and a magnetic crane, and to say it was action packed and very "toy" would be an understatement.

When my Dad passed away in 2002, I found our trains had been baking in his attic for 40 years, along with a bunch of stuff that had been given to him by long time friends and neighbors who had moved from our neighborhood and didn't want to move the stuff.

I didn't have room for a layout at the time, but I did want to build one and when we moved I inherited a small but all mine, train room. It was then that I discovered on-line train forums. I am glad I did, as my view of a train layout was what I knew from the past and nothing more. As a result, I put off building a layout and putzed around testing stuff for a while before taking the plunge.

I am extremely glad I did, as I never would have undertaken the type of layout I am building. I have enjoyed the process to no end, and when done, I will be very pleased with it. If I had just undertaken the grass paper route, I probably would have run my course by now and the trains would be back in storage. By being exposed to the vast amount of talent and magnificant layouts I have seen on on-line forums, I have enjoyed the hobby a great deal more and expanded my involvement.

However, every pickle has some bumps, and I find on-line forums usually have a resident gasbag or two who pretty much knows everything, is quick to tell you about it and does so in such a pompous and condescending manner, that if you don't recognize him for what he is, you might be a bit discouraged. When I come across posts by such individuals, I just can't help by recall the scene from the Wizard of Oz - "Ignore that fool behind the curtain - I am the great and powerful Oz!"

 

[3railguy]

However, every pickle has some bumps, and I find on-line forums usually have a resident gasbag or two who pretty much knows everything, is quick to tell you about it and does so in such a pompous and condescending manner

Frank , which forums are you refering too here?

[underworld]

The innocence left us when manufaturers began replacing ozone producing field wound motors with can motors which produce very little ozone. Ozone is an addictive chemical that excites our "happy cells". Unknowingly, we have been suffering withdrawls from not having enough field wound ozone in our blood stream, causing hate and discontent toward fellow tinplaters, lawsuits, lawsuit flame wars, trainwars, and a whole mess of other irrational behavior.

Oh and those miserable rubber band wheels over magnetraction. I won't go there.

I do LOVE the smell of my prewar Marklin!!!

If you have can motor trains I recommend a Sharper Image Ionic Breeze for the train room! You can get them on eBay factory reconditioned for half or less of original price!!!

I don't car much about brand....I buy what I like.

underworld

[Frank53]

Frank , which forums are you refering too here?

[3railguy]

lsmell of my prewar Marklin!!![}:)

 I forgot to mention Marx HO hudson motors. They ozone is killer!

[underworld]

 I forgot to mention Marx HO hudson motors. They ozone is killer!

I'll have to find one of those!!! I have an Ionic Breeze also.....sometimes I just sit in front of it and inhale!!!!! I also have an Ionic Breeze for the car and a battery powered one that I can carry in my shirt pocket!!!!!

underworld

[Anonymous]

Wow! Somebody open up the windows....it's getting deadly in here!!! There may be something in those fumes after all...

Time for a new subject. Too many knotted panties already.

What is your favorite shade of flat black?

[CSXect]

Time for a new subject. Too many knotted panties already.

What is your favorite shade of flat black?

Ok how about Atlas O versus S-helper S gauge pros and cons they are very compareable as to quality and detail. Diehard S gauger with a serious O gauge habit

[3railguy]

I think it is comical that when someone posts why they like Lionel better than MTH or vise versa, people get offended. Some take it personal. The same with someone bashing a certain train. Unless someone is being bashed for liking a train, why on earth get offended??? These trains aren't our kids, they are things made of metal and plastic. If people don't state what they don't like about a train, then I doubt manufacturers will take any strides to improve them.

[lionelsoni]

I was thinking the same thing, John.  There's a difference between "I don't like whatever," and "People who like whatever are idiots."  We should feel free to express what we think is wrong about a product or company, as long as we do it in a civil way and don't attack personally those who disagree or might disagree with us.

[stubbsO]

You know guys, some of you are like kids picking at that scab so that it never heals.

I really get sick and tired of having police these threads where the Orange bashers or the Purple Bashers try and recuit people to the Great Toy Train Civil War.

If you don't like MTH, don't but it.

It you don't like Lionel, don't buy it.

But for heaven's sake stop trying to drag everyone else into the fight. Aren't there enough real issues in the real world to get you blood pressure worked up?

I am tired of all this nonsense, and I suspct that others here are as well.

HEAR HERE!!!! Now if only that could be posted to the chowderheads on the 20 other forum boards [mostly cars] I look and post at could read this, the world would be a better place.

[nblum]

"But for heaven's sake stop trying to drag everyone else into the fight. Aren't there enough real issues in the real world to get you blood pressure worked up?

I am tired of all this nonsense, and I suspct that others here are as well."

---

I guess my take is different, with all due respect.  There are things that have happened in the hobby, and continue to happen that some want to discuss and others want to sweep under the rug or are uninterested in.  CTT hasn't been a non-participant in these discussions, given the editorial some years ago calling for the TCA to take action related to the ongoing lawsuit. CTT and its editorial staff were certainly within their rights to make such statements and took a strong stand. Why would you deny those of us who disagree the right to uphold our own positions?  I am glad you haven't just deep sixed this and other such threads as would happen elsewhere.

That having been said, I agree that amongst the world's issues this one is pretty much small potatoes. Then again, so are the results of sports, constituting even less important issues, which people also get quite exercised and opinionated about. 

 

I hope that as long as the conversation remains civil and non-libelous, CTT will allow full discussion of the issues that exist in the hobby and industry, no matter how upsetting or boring to some. 

[Anonymous]

I like stuff from all the manufacturers.  My problem is you have to choose which command control system you want to use... that is where DCC is better than DCS or TMCC, you can buy DCC compatible engines from any manufacturer - there is not proprietary boards or sounds, etc - never could understand how a sound can be proprietary or trademarked... but oh well.

I have MTH, Williams, Lionel, K-Line rolling stock.  But because I chose to go TMCC I can only buy Lionel engines that are compatible with TMCC, I can't buy MTH engines unless I want to run my engines in conventional mode.  This is where, IMHO, MTH is hurting the hobby.  It was Mike Wolf's decision to lock down PS2, in turn Lionel has locked down TMCCII, both systems will not be compatible - and I doubt you will be able to run both systems on the same track - unless someone can provide evidence to the contrary.

As for MTH engines being cheeper than Lionel engines... look at the cost for a C&O Allegheny:

Lionel = $1,699.99 (list)
MTH = $1,399.95 (list)

Now MTH did make a 'RailKing' version for $699.95 where Lionel has not.  So in all reality there isn't that much difference.  If you look at the large on-line dealers, they tend to mark the Lionel stuff down further than the MTH, thereby in a sense, eliminating the cost difference.

Brent

[Bob Keller]

We've never said the issues can't be discussed - but rarely and I do mean rarely, have they been done without bomb throwers getting involved. And heaven forbid that anyone should NOT reply to a provocation.

I've stated this before, the purpose of the forum is to attract and assist newcomers. Newbies come here and see an adult mud wrestling contest, and they are really turned off. I know because they've told us this.

So launching one more thread just to get a few more shots in against Team Orange or Team Purple, might make someone's ego feel good, but it collectively makes us all look like a bunch of losers who are trying to make a hobby that EVERYONE is suposed to enjoy - a MISERABLE experience for everyone.

And I'll say it again, I'm tired of it.

Endlessly ranting about the state of the hobby with the apparent goal of simply stirring things up and keeping the level of animocity running high can be done elsewhere, not here.

[Blueberryhill RR]

I agree with you, Bob. I usually don't get involved in these type of discussions because I have heard enough complaining in my life. I WILL say this.....Automobile companies are a good example of customer loyality turning sour. That's why they have warranties. In fact, so do Toy Train Companies. Anything MASS PRODUCED will have a few LEMONS. Some people that were total Loyalists to Lionel, for example, would recieve their product, only to find a LEMON. This would turn them off terribly. The same holds true for automobles. The old war of Ford vs. Chevrolet, is an example. I have always bought Chevys, because I worked for them. AND, I have had a few that I was not happy with. OK, I said my opinion.

Chuck

[FJ and G]

I feel traumatized and hounded by all of this banter.

"yawn"

 

 

[csxt30]

I feel traumatized and hounded by all of this banter.

"yawn"

 

 

Thanks Dave !! Now I have to go look that word up !! ( banter ) 

Thanks, John