I couldn't agree more, Allan. One should only collect toy trains for the pleasure and satisfaction that comes from owning them in the present.
Unfortunately, demographics, along with the aging of the baby boomers who grew up playing with trains in their youth, practically guarantees that all but the rarest of items will be worth less in the future.
Sure, some new fans join the ranks each year, but they will never equal the number of collectors who are gradually phasing out of the hobby. Baby boomers are the ones who have been driving this industry, and statistically speaking, they have been at their peak earning years, just prior to retirement. That translated into a lot of disposable income available for discretionary spending on hobbies such as collecting toy trains. Now, however, as baby boomers begin their retirements on reduced, fixed incomes, overall spending on this hobby will decrease substantially. Not only are younger newcomers to the hobby fewer in number, but they just aren't in the same financial position to support the high prices currently being charged for state of the art trains.
As baby boomers retire and pass from the scene, expect to see more and more train collections being sold off. This, coupled with fewer new collectors, will result in an inexorable decline in the prices of toy trains in the future and the failure of many of the current manufacturers. We can think of this as the natural completion of the demographic shift that adversely affected Lionel 40 years ago. Nostalgia and lots of disposable income has fueled the renaissance of the toy train industry over the past two decades. Alas, all good things must come to an end.
Kool: Unfortunately, some of us older geezers can't wait for Lionel to come out with another 682 turbine. So we are "unsavvy" We have to "grab what we can WHILE we can". For younger guys, they can plan for the long range releases. I already have the two super-size versions of the 682 in the scale-size Lionel 6-38028 and Lionel 6-18010. Plus I grabbed TWO of the semi-scale MTH S2 turbines (MTH 30-1395-1). And of course, the postwar 671 and 681 turbines are in my roster. I envy the heck out of Marty's collection. While I have a very nice scale NYC A-B-A setup from MTH, I would LOVE to land the CC NYC F3s. There is actually an S2 CC 671 turbine on E-Bay right now. The price isn't horrible at $515, but no PayPal/VISA stops me from buying it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-18057-CC-6-8-6-671-S2-PENN-TURBINE-NEW-SEAL_W0QQitemZ110071382512QQihZ001QQcategoryZ4148QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Dep
Virginian Railroad
daan: Thanks for that info on Proto 1. I'm still waiting for delivery of my FM, so it may be a while before I can report my opinion of it. If all the speech is clear and understandable, then I'm REALLY looking forward to it!!! Either way, I'll post an honest opinion of it in this thread (if nobody objects).
Dave: I envy where you live. I used to live in the Chicago area and train and hobby stores were VERY common. I hope that one that didn't sell gets relisted at a lower price. That's the good thing about E-Bay, you aren't limited to show dates to pick up on stuff. If a guy doesn't sell it, he can relist it for less. As a matter of fact, there IS a NYC F3 CC item listed on E-Bay right now. Current bid is $198 with only one bidder. Maybe I'll get lucky and can "vulch" it at the last minute for a fair price . We can also track it and see what it sells for.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170064413417&fromMakeTrack=true
HA! I just noticed that original E-Bay F3 I posted aboiut is RELISTED FOR THE SAME PRICE!!!LOL..."if at first you don't succeed..."
http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-CENTURY-CLUB-NEW-YORK-CENTRAL-F-3-OB-w-CASE_W0QQitemZ110072770249QQihZ001QQcategoryZ4148QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Deputy wrote: ......... There is NOT a big selection of Lionel CC items available on E-Bay at any one time, so I suspect that raises the asking price quite a bit. Plus they are all pretty much "premium locos" that are loaded with the best options Lionel has. So that also keeps the asking price up. I am still on the hunt for a CC NYC F3. If I can find one NIB for a price I can afford, I'll grab it. Not becasue it's a collectors item, but because I WANT it. I think that is also the driving force for many of the prices paid on E-Bay.............Dep
......... There is NOT a big selection of Lionel CC items available on E-Bay at any one time, so I suspect that raises the asking price quite a bit. Plus they are all pretty much "premium locos" that are loaded with the best options Lionel has. So that also keeps the asking price up. I am still on the hunt for a CC NYC F3. If I can find one NIB for a price I can afford, I'll grab it. Not becasue it's a collectors item, but because I WANT it. I think that is also the driving force for many of the prices paid on E-Bay.............Dep
Dep,
I'll certainly admit to not checking ebay as often as you for these items, so I will take your word for it on how frequently these things are offered. My comment was just that the particular one you linked to seemed to have not sold.
I just remember many of the comments heard over the years at shows with some dealers putting the CC stuff down. I remember one dealer even making a joke of paying $10 per pound for CC items. I realize there are not many shows or hobby dealers where you are, I am probably almost 100% on the other side of that situation here in SE PA. (although there are less good large shows in my immediate vicinity now that Fort Washington Expo Center is no more)
I suspect you (and myself and Marty, based on one of Marty's above comments.) are probably in that very small cross section of operators who want the classic postwar look but with all the neat gizmo's included.
True to their word, there was never another set of PW style NYC F3s with TMCC in them made by Lionel. For people who are not necessarily set on having PW-like (or even Lionel) items though, there were of course the scale offerings over the last few years. And of course if you start crossing the brand lines, there are even more examples of NYC F3s with various levels of detail with either TMCC or DCS in them.
We were certainly the type of operators/collectors whom Lionel was targeting with CC I. I think Lionel simply adjusted to the changing market with their approach for CCII, which most engines are considered desireable by the scale audience as well. (less a few people who had mechanical problems with an engine here or there, but that goes with all products today to some extent)
I think we should remember that CCI was introduced just before the explosion of product that is offered to us via catalogs each year was as vast as it is now. It was a world with less places to spend your train dollars at that point, which gradually changed as the later CC items came about.
-Dave
Hi Deputy,
The crewtalk in proto 1 contains a few randomly triggered sentences a crew member says to the control tower in neutral. Loud and clear! Also different locomotives have different messages. They tell you "track is clear" or "is that switch aligned, eeehm, it need to be lined back" and so on. You can clearly hear what they say, but the number of messages on one locomotive is very limited (3 or 4).
I'm very curious about what you think of protosound 1!
And my two cents about investment on toy trains.. There are a few 1000 different models for sale right of the shelf today and williams also makes great reissues of postwar collectibles. But the modern remakes are NOT the same as an original one. Most people however are operators and don't want to spend a lot of money on an item if they can't run it without hesitation.
The collectors willing to pay high $ for an item are more scarce then the number of models being scarce enough to sell for high prices.. Investments never have the guarantee to be an investment, they become an investment after they are sold, not in before of it.
Otherwise making money on investments would be way too easy and money wouldn't be of any value anymore. Just plain labour guarantees money in the pocket. All the rest is plain luck!
Dave: Glad you replied to this thread. Let's me ogle and drool over Marty's CC collection all over again Personally, I like Marty's stuff better than some other pics of prewar locos that have frequently appeard on the forum. No offense to those who post them
As to advertised and sell prices...no doubt about it people ask high for some stuff. If you track the prices of 682 locos you will see that right away. Even the junk gets a high asking price, and even if they are junk, they still sell for quite a bit. There is NOT a big selection of Lionel CC items available on E-Bay at any one time, so I suspect that raises the asking price quite a bit. Plus they are all pretty much "premium locos" that are loaded with the best options Lionel has. So that also keeps the asking price up. I am still on the hunt for a CC NYC F3. If I can find one NIB for a price I can afford, I'll grab it. Not because it's a collectors item, but because I WANT it. I think that is also the driving force for many of the prices paid on E-Bay.
As to Proto 1...I just bought an MTH FM Trainmaster in Jersey Central colors off E-Bay that has Proto 1. It has a new battery and has been run-tested for operation. I am VERY interested to hear what this loco sounds like as far as the "crew talk" and other sound options is concerned. I have heard a LOT of bad-mouthing about what Proto 1 sounds like and I'd like to form my own opinion about it. I already know what Lionel's "unintelligible crewtalk" sounds like, and it really is AWFUL. If I can just UNDERSTAND what the Proto 1 crewtalk is saying, then they are already way ahead of any of that Lionel stuff that they are STILL releasing in 2006. Eventually, I will convert the Proto 1 to Proto 2, mainly because of the increased features on Proto 2. Dep
Deputy wrote:LOL...I'm with you. Dang E-Bay addiction. Here's the Century Club item I'd like to get:8< link snipped to get rid of the horiz scroll bar >8 Gee...only going for a paltry NINE HUNDRED DOLLARS. Wonder what it cost new?Dep
LOL...I'm with you. Dang E-Bay addiction. Here's the Century Club item I'd like to get:
8< link snipped to get rid of the horiz scroll bar >8
Gee...only going for a paltry NINE HUNDRED DOLLARS. Wonder what it cost new?
Sorry I am jumping in here a bit late, but I think we need to distinguish the "going" (or "sold for") prices from some sellers' "asking" prices.
The link above seems to have ended today, and it doesn't look like it sold.
I could write a very off target price guide if I listed some of what I repeatedly see at shows (because it is lots of times priced to not move) with the asking prices recorded as "going" or "sold for" prices. Same for ebay auctions that end with no bids but high "buy it now" or 1st bid price.
At shows, I think the over priced dealers are just hoping for the uneducated consumer to wander past and see something he(or the spouse or kids for an even easier sell) has to have.
On-line it's a similar fishing expedition, but with less overhead than hauling the stuff to shows all the time.
I'll agree with some of the other sentiments too. 1) Anything made to be collectable isn't, 2) MTH Proto 1 trains have to have at least the same depreciation as Century Club issues, 3) Expecting to get "what you put in" for almost anything is unrealistic(except maybe real estate - current slump noted, but over the long (think 10 years or more) term, RE will likely appreciate unless there is a major change in the characteristic of the property due to development/neighborhood issues or disaster).
If someone has a 1965 Corvette in showroom condition, he could probably get what he paid for it. Then again, he probably spent more money over the last 41 years keeping it in that condition than may be easy to make up for in any current sales price.
MartyE wrote: One more then for you all...
One more then for you all...
Nice collection Marty.
One comment, there is still a belief among the general public that old lionel is worth it's weight in gold. Almost weekly someone walks into one of the local train shops and wants to sell a box of old bent, dented and rusty Lionels. They get very insulted when offered what they are worth. Big disapointment. Occasionally a gem does surface, but they are getting fewer and fewer.
Frank: While I agree that recently there have been more than a few posts that might be considered "anti-Lionel", I think if a survey were done for and against Lionel and MTH on THIS forum, the pro-Lionel people would far outnumber the antis. I was fairly surprised by the level of hostility from the Lionel folks when people discuss MTH on this forum. After a while I sorta understood the loyalty some folks have to Lionel.
Now myself, I'm a neutron. I have about an equal balance of Lionel and MTH products. I don't hold any loyalty to EITHER one. I certainly have personal preferences as far as features of one manufacturer over the other. But neither one is putting any food on my table. Heck, it's the other way around!!
Playing the Grinch here for a second, I find it curious that in the last couple days, posters have suddenly appeared with interestingly crafted posts bashing Lionel.
A post appeared on another forum - first post of a person - stating (paraphrased) "I dug out my Dad's old Lionel trains and want to make a layout. WHen visiting the local hobby shop, I saw MTH Trains - have any of you guys heard of MTH Trains? THey seem to be much better quality"
Um, ok - been away from teh hobby for a long while but are able to discern the "much better" quality?
Likewise a fellow with two posts lamenting the resale value of Century Club material - "were we sold a bill of goods regarding how many were made?"
I dunno DC...I bought one (a S&W 8 3/8 blued .44mag) because I thought it was Didn't really care if it went up in value or not. And I sold it for a tidy profit. About $100 more than I paid if I remember right. Remember the TV show Miami Vice? Crockett's gun was a Bren 10. I bought one for $750 and sold it for over double that and they are worth even MORE now. It all depends on the item and supply and demand.
Getting back to Lionel CC. I would buy a CC to RUN...not keep in a box or display case. I see Marty's trains ON TRACKS. Course he MAY have posed them, we don't know. But I am an OPERATOR. CC trains won't do me any good if they are worth a fortune and I am dead and can't get back my investment. So I run ALL my trains. The prices I see on E-Bay all look to be more than what they originally cost. Just how much of a "killing" do people want to make????
MartyE wrote:That is the entire collection minus the special released tender for the turbine (all the way on the inside rail). I have, not pictured) the NYC B unit as well.
HOLY SMOKES! I am in AWE!!!! I hope you have all that stuff insured. I've been hunting for the F3 NYC for a while now and I either get outbid or the Buy it no blows me away. I am (Brunswick) green with envy
Trying to update my avatar since 2020
MartyE and Kodi the Husky Dog! ( 3/31/90-9/28/04 ) www.MartyE.com My O Gauge Web Page and Home of Kodiak Junction!
Marty: Love the GG-1 and NYC F3!!! Any S2 turbines in there??? I hope so. That would make an AWESOME collection!!!
611 wrote: I don't recall stating that Linonel wrote anything about them being good investments. I do recall it being in an article or two in the popular train magazines. I have many other collectable trains, Williams, MTH, etc and they've all gone up in value. It's only the Century club 1 trains that have gone down in value, except maybe the CC1 S2. 611
I don't recall stating that Linonel wrote anything about them being good investments. I do recall it being in an article or two in the popular train magazines. I have many other collectable trains, Williams, MTH, etc and they've all gone up in value. It's only the Century club 1 trains that have gone down in value, except maybe the CC1 S2.
611
I was just curious what Williams and MTH items you have so many of that have gone up in value. I can't think of hardly any toy trains that have maintained value since the postwar era.
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
"Welcome to the forum 611. Usually the folks here are helpful and supportive of other hobbyists. Hope this thread doesnt turn you away."
---------------------
I think the advice he's getting is helpful and supportive. It may not be what he (or some others) want to hear, but I think it's the truth as others see it. And gaining such information can only be helpful--and avoid disappointment--in the long run.
Lots of folks still collect trains, and some of those folks are still able to realize a profit when they sell certain items. But by and large, toy trains today (as opposed to 15-20 years ago) are a lousy investment (if investing is what one has in mind) and they should only be bought for personal enjoyment. Anything made and promoted as a collectible will almost certainly never be one.
Martye,
Great photo. I really like this shot. Nice layout.
I collect trains for the fun of having certain ones and watching them run around the track. Truely collector quality trains are not my thing, cuz I want to run everything I have.
As for commemorative sets of any 'collectable' items, I'd be willing to bet most of them don't hold their values. Anything made with the specific intent of creating a collector market seems like a risky investment to me.
Jakeoregano (Dwayne)
I invested in them...and the fun I have is paying off in dividends. I never intended them to be an investment. I just wanted some classics with the goodies.
pbjwilson wrote: Dep, Are you the one that lived in Wilmette? Anyway the F-3's were $750.00 when they were offered. I have the brochure for the Century Club locos. 726 was $895, 671 - $795, GG-1 - $749, Hudson - $1095
Dep, Are you the one that lived in Wilmette?
Anyway the F-3's were $750.00 when they were offered. I have the brochure for the Century Club locos. 726 was $895, 671 - $795, GG-1 - $749, Hudson - $1095
Yep...I'm the one from Wilmette. And it sounds like a tidy profit for the guy selling the F3. So where's the gripe about them not being a good investment??????
Oh WAIT....I see why it's worth so much....THE BOXES!!!!!!!!
Hehehe.
pbjwilson wrote: Deputy wrote: pbjwilson wrote:OK then. Has this forum lost all its decorum. Seems like everyone is ready to pounce. And the OGR forum..........Yikes!It's E-Bays fault. The dang place has EVERYONE upset. EVERYONE PILE ON PAUL!!!!!!! ROFL Just kiddin' Dep But I love the Bay. It's the greatest. What do they have like 20,000 Lionel items up for auction every day. Gotta love it.
Deputy wrote: pbjwilson wrote:OK then. Has this forum lost all its decorum. Seems like everyone is ready to pounce. And the OGR forum..........Yikes!It's E-Bays fault. The dang place has EVERYONE upset. EVERYONE PILE ON PAUL!!!!!!! ROFL Just kiddin' Dep
pbjwilson wrote:OK then. Has this forum lost all its decorum. Seems like everyone is ready to pounce. And the OGR forum..........Yikes!
OK then. Has this forum lost all its decorum. Seems like everyone is ready to pounce. And the OGR forum..........Yikes!
It's E-Bays fault. The dang place has EVERYONE upset.
EVERYONE PILE ON PAUL!!!!!!! ROFL Just kiddin'
But I love the Bay. It's the greatest. What do they have like 20,000 Lionel items up for auction every day. Gotta love it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-CENTURY-CLUB-NEW-YORK-CENTRAL-F-3-OB-w-CASE_W0QQitemZ110067430107QQihZ001QQcategoryZ4148QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
DCmontana wrote: I shed no tears. I buy trains to play with and no matter how pristine, I can't resist watching trains run. For years I have seen warnings about investing in old trains and people still do it. I remember when people thought all old Lionel trains were worth a fortune, in the eighties. Now, unless it is decidedly rare, or absolutely mint, it probably will only buy a burger and fries for four people at a reasonable resturant. If you bought the century club trains hoping to make money in a couple of years, you were really kidding yourself. By the way, I have a rainforest tree house for sale in Arizona. Let me tell you man, it is a steal! Contact RED'S FRIENDLY RealEstate!
I shed no tears. I buy trains to play with and no matter how pristine, I can't resist watching trains run. For years I have seen warnings about investing in old trains and people still do it. I remember when people thought all old Lionel trains were worth a fortune, in the eighties. Now, unless it is decidedly rare, or absolutely mint, it probably will only buy a burger and fries for four people at a reasonable resturant. If you bought the century club trains hoping to make money in a couple of years, you were really kidding yourself.
By the way, I have a rainforest tree house for sale in Arizona. Let me tell you man, it is a steal! Contact RED'S FRIENDLY RealEstate!
Oh, Welcome to the forum 611. Usually the folks here are helpful and supportive of other hobbyists. Hope this thread doesnt turn you away. Like I said in my other post, Lionel sure touted these locos as something special and collectable. I havent been watching these on e-bay so dont know what they are selling for. Will keep an eye on them for curiosity.
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