12/21/06 and still being responded to....interesting!
Only offer my
To me, it's a hobby. I invest in trains to "play" with them.
To the person who sold me my trains, it was an inventory investment for future sales.
To the collector it's an investment for the "pride of possession".
As far as trains as collectibles as monetay investments, I guess that I'd I think of them as any other commodity with the "supply and demand" factors considered.
Thanks for asking.
If you want an investment, buy mutual funds. Trains are meant to be run, on a layout, for the fun of it.
Qualitywise? I've got some Menards rolling stock, they're quite good, but not as good as Lionel or MTH. I'd say Menards is kind of the Marx of the 21st Century. And it has been said, Joshua Lionel Cowan made toy trains popular, but Louis Marx made them affordable.
How is it they can price so many items that low yet Lionel can't or doesn't? One reason is that Menards is selling the product they have made in their own stores. No middle companies, there aren't multiple layers of businesses needing to make a profit. Lionel has to cover all their business overhead and make a proft by selling to other businesses who have to do the same. Does Lionel still use Jobbers? If so, then there are at least 3 layers. Also, one has to compare like products. Where does the Menards merchandise fall in comparison to Lionel?
That's quite a drop. Since I've always been an operator, it hasn't really hurt me. I have quite a few trains that I've seen the value go up on, but I run mine and I don't have plans to sell them. Perhaps my son and daughters will someday sell them and see a profit of sorts, but I won't. The one way it has affected me is I now rarely buy new Lionel products. Their prices seem too high to me. I've been a fan of Lionel since I was a toddler, but I can't justify paying what they're asking now. I tend to buy new old stock or used trains on ebay and Craig's List. I've gotten some really good deals that way. I'd like to buy them at train shows also, but they're rarely in my area (south Mississippi).
Earlier today, I was looking at the back cover of Classic Toy Trains (the December issue). Menards has nearly a full page of items they've priced at less than $40.00. In fact, the majority of them are $19.99 and $24.99. How is it they can price so many items that low yet Lionel can't or doesn't? By charging such high prices, it means people who buy them have trouble getting what they paid from the secondary market. A buyer will think, "I can buy a brand new Menards car or two for the price of one pre-owned Lionel car. Hmmmm." I think the pricing is a big factor in the lower demand for Lionel products on the secondary market. MTH has traditionally charged lower prices than Lionel also. The act they offer a full line including locomotives and transformers soften the market even more for pre-owned Lionel. It's a drag because I'm sure there are many like me who would prefer to buy Lionel products all things being equal. The Lionel name symbolizes quality and durability. How many Lionel trains are still running after 20 years.....30 years......50 years.....75 years.....100 years? My oldest trains are from the 50s. I have some from every decade since, but even the cheapest quality ones they made that I have still work. That's what makes me to continue to be a Lionel fan.
I tried to find some 1974-76 magazines to see what the mail order prices were for the bicentenial loco and cars. Unfortunately I have older ones, and I have newer ones, but I have nothing in those years.
cwburfle I've seen many items sold as "Limited Editions" and "Collectable"/"Collectible" that are indeed as described. I haven't. Can you give a few specific examples?
I've seen many items sold as "Limited Editions" and "Collectable"/"Collectible" that are indeed as described.
I haven't. Can you give a few specific examples?
I thought it would be easy to find a lot of examples. However once I started looking, I found the rise in prices were marginal and not worth mentioning for the items I'd been thinking about, when I posted my disagreement.
In many cases, fairly high rises in prices were commanded right after the runs were produced and sold out. After a few months and in some cases years, the prices had dropped significantly similar to what was recounted by cwburfle about the Century Club prices and the $500 Early Bird boxcar. The more I looked, the more it appeared to me you were correct!
Thanks for the wise words of wisdom!
On the other hand thou, I had a friend who was a dealer and he would complain that he didn't order this or that but Lionel would ( or distribator Would ) Force items and charge him for them. And he couldn't refuse them. ( When Lionel makes way to many of an item ) Some of the Nascar sets back around 2006 or when ever they where. For example.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
cwburfle .......................I can tell you that there were a lot of people who thought that Lionel would occasionally underproduce some items to create shortages that would fuel the buying frenzy. Preorder or miss out! Did Lionel really do this?...... nobody really knows. .................
.......................I can tell you that there were a lot of people who thought that Lionel would occasionally underproduce some items to create shortages that would fuel the buying frenzy. Preorder or miss out! Did Lionel really do this?...... nobody really knows. .................
I don't doubt it. My experiences are more recent over only the last 20 years or so(though I have stories my dad may have shared with me from further back), but the various "buzz words" I've encountered over that time were:
All the same gimmick, just a different name for a way to claim you need to "act now" to not miss out. Assuming Lionel survives for another 20 years, it will be interesting to see how all these BTO items do further down the line.
The deal of not reproducing the same items seems to be happening for some items but not others, sometimes the claim is the tooling is lost/damaged, etc. Sometimes it might be a "it was cool to do once, but we probably wont' get enough people to bother trying for it a second time". The Big Boy sems to still attract demand in each new issue (original, then JLC, then Vision), but the Pennsy CC2S (one of the original 4 Vision engines, just a random example) hasn't resurfaced, possibly because it's more of an obscure item.
All IMHO.
-Dave
And unless it's really scarce I can't figure out why the Virginia car goes for what it does. Maybe a hard-core Lionel collector can clue us in.After getting the rare car wrong I checked a couple of price guides. In the Greenberg one I checked, they openly admit that they don't know why the Virginia car is harder to find and more expensive. They mention that some may have gone to the state of Virginia as a promotion. I can tell you that there were a lot of people who thought that Lionel would occasionally underproduce some items to create shortages that would fuel the buying frenzy. Preorder or miss out! Did Lionel really do this?...... nobody really knows. Back in the 1970's there were some mail order dealers advertising Lionel product in either RMC or MR. I don't think I have any of those magazines any longer. If I have some time later I will look. Any current production items I purchased back then would have been mail order from one of those advertiser.
No offense taken at all. I'd sure like to know what the original retail prices on the Bicentennial units were myself, but since the se "set" came out 40+ years ago there's no way to know without some serious digging, which I'm not sure I've got the urge to do. And unless it's really scarce I can't figure out why the Virginia car goes for what it does. Maybe a hard-core Lionel collector can clue us in.
PS: Not part of the Bicentennial set but if you run into a "President Washington" 4-6-2 grab it! It's a good runner.
Firelock76 Interesting Mr. Burfle. According to the price guide I have (from 2007) the average Bicentennial car goes for around $20 to $25, the odd-man-out is the Virginia car with a $150 price tag. Who knows why? The locomotive and caboose combo shows at $90 to $100. Adding it all up and being conservative it comes to $480, so $300 seemed like a pretty good deal. Anyway I liked the set, so I'm sure not sorry I got it, and as I said these things were all new-in-the-box. They ain't makin' any more of 'em, that's for sure! And if the guy selling it made some money on it, that's OK with me too.
Interesting Mr. Burfle. According to the price guide I have (from 2007) the average Bicentennial car goes for around $20 to $25, the odd-man-out is the Virginia car with a $150 price tag. Who knows why? The locomotive and caboose combo shows at $90 to $100. Adding it all up and being conservative it comes to $480, so $300 seemed like a pretty good deal. Anyway I liked the set, so I'm sure not sorry I got it, and as I said these things were all new-in-the-box. They ain't makin' any more of 'em, that's for sure!
And if the guy selling it made some money on it, that's OK with me too.
Didn't mean to write that you didn't get a good deal. At one time I don't think you could have touched the set for $480. And I guess I got the "hot" car wrong. The prices I was guestimating were the original street prices, before any external pressures affected the price. I'd still like to know what the street prices at release were back in 1974-76.I still have my set. The loco and first few cars have just a little track time. I guess I decided that I didn't like running the set that much. I purchased the rest of the set anyway. I couldn't see only having part of it.
Then the prices started to drop. Long story short, I bought the set a few months back for $300, new and in the box and un-run.
LOL, I purchased that set new. It was sold open stock, with the pieces being release over several years. As I recall, it started in 1974 and finished up in 1976. That was before I started keeping track of what I paid for things. I know I purchased the whole set mail order. I wonder what I paid. I would guess around $10 per car, and $50-$75 for the loco. That would be right around $190-$215 for the set. Anybody have any old train mags with prices? There is a good chance I purchased my set from Glenn Uhl.
By the way, if I recall correctly, most of the cars were quite common, and realtively inexpensive on the secondary market. Supposedly one car was in short supply and worth a significant premium. I think it was the 7611 New York Boxcar.
Not trying to get into a fight with you phrankenstine, but didn't you kind of prove my point about "...limited to how many they can sell..." with your supposition of "If Lionel got 9,341 orders for a particular item I imagine they made 9,440?" Sounds like limited to how many they can sell to me.
Mind you, our antique collecting rules are guidelines to follow, and I wasn't intending any shot at Lionel. Keep in mind they're in business to make money, nothing wrong with that at all, and their business happens to be toy trains.
I'll give you an example of one time I knowingly broke my own rule. Remember that series of steam locomotive collector plates put out by "The Hamilton Collection" in 1990? About ten years ago I saw an assortment of those plates at an antique shop and purchased the "Blue Comet" plate, I think it ran about $35. When I see any of those plates at train shows now they usually have $15 price tags on them. Hey, I don't care, I liked it, I bought it, and at any rate it's a gorgeous rendition of the "Blue Comet" locomotive so I enjoy it just the same.
As I said before, buy it because you like it.
I'll tell you, one skill that really comes in handy is patience.
I'll give you a couple of examples from my own experience. About 20 years ago K-Line came out with a Hershey train set. Saw it a a show and it had a $350 price tag on it. I thought it was cool, but couldn't bring myself to spend that kind of money on it. Several years later I saw the same set at a train shop with a $200 price. Passed on it again because I saw some things I'd rather get. Then about five years ago saw the same set at a flea market with an $85 price tag. Bingo! brought it home that day.
Then there's the Lionel Bicentennial Set from 1975. I used to see it at train shows with a price pushing $1,000. (OK, maybe the owner was just "fishing.") Then the prices started to drop. Long story short, I bought the set a few months back for $300, new and in the box and un-run. Good deal, I thought. AND those Bicentennial cars look great pulled by my Lionel "President Washington" 4-6-2! I think they look better that way than pulled by the red, white and blue GE diesel.
Good discussion here.
As I originally posted I have all the CC locos and I ran/run all of them. I also had/have all the extra cars, tenders, display cases, etc., with the exception of the PA coal train set.
I buy things on the Bay and have watched prices for some time. I see mint/OB CC items averaging at around half original value. Some higher, some lower. Value is higher if all the extras are present. I see these on the bay often and I see the same items can hang forever as folks/businesses try to get the higher prices.
I recently decided it is time to thin the collection down. I sold my used CC II PA Sharknoses and M10000 sets at York for cash. They were in excellent condition. Got about 35% of my investment. I could have gotten more if they were unopened OBs. I also did not have the shipping boxes for the display cases. I was happy with the transaction.
I did not have to pack and ship or deal with possible shipping issues and a remote buyer not being happy (or worse dishonest). Never expected to get much, if anything for them. The buyer was a dealer and obviously is looking to make a reasonable profit on their investment.
If that dealer had items I was interested in he would have worked a trade with me and had that been the case I would have done better than the cash. For me it is more fun to trade with friends/folks face-to-face.
Regards, Roy
Firelock76 Lady Firestorm and I have been collecting antiques of various types since we were in college, way back in the Jurassic Period, so let us pass on some collecting wisdom to all you folks... 1) Anything manufactured as a collectable, isn't. 2) "Limited Edition" means limited to how many they can sell. 3) Once the "Limited Edition Collectable" is sold by the manufacturer and it leaves the loading dock, they don't care what happens to it. Price goes up, price goes down, it doesn't matter, they've sold it and banked the money. 4) Buy the antique, collectable, or whatever because you like it and it gives you pleasure to own it and have fun with it. If it appreciates in value so much the better, but that shouldn't be your primary concern. Works for us. Alway has. Still does.
Lady Firestorm and I have been collecting antiques of various types since we were in college, way back in the Jurassic Period, so let us pass on some collecting wisdom to all you folks...
1) Anything manufactured as a collectable, isn't.
2) "Limited Edition" means limited to how many they can sell.
3) Once the "Limited Edition Collectable" is sold by the manufacturer and it leaves the loading dock, they don't care what happens to it. Price goes up, price goes down, it doesn't matter, they've sold it and banked the money.
4) Buy the antique, collectable, or whatever because you like it and it gives you pleasure to own it and have fun with it. If it appreciates in value so much the better, but that shouldn't be your primary concern.
Works for us. Alway has. Still does.
I disagree with statements numbered 1 & 2.
I've seen many items sold as "Limited Editions" and "Collectable"/"Collectible" that are indeed as described. The important thing about them has to be to limit the production to below what the demand is expected to be. The lower the number, the better. That's why the "Century Club" items didn't appreciate. Lionel made enough items for everyone who wanted one. There was NO limit. If Lionel got 9,431 orders for a particular item, I imagine they made about 9,440. Just enough to cover the amount ordered, plus a few extra to replace any damaged or defective ones. If they'd limited the number of each item to 500, I'm sure all would have sold out quickly. If there had been a potential for selling 9,431, but only 500 had been produced, then the 8,431 people who didn't get them would be driving the price up for any that entered the secondary market.
According to my limited research, the items came out in this order:
1997 - 726 Berkshire + display base + matching boxcar
1998 - 671 Turbine + display base + matching boxcar
1998 - 2332 GG1 + display base + matching boxcar
1999 - 2333 A-A + display base + B-unit + display base + matching boxcar
1999 - Pennsylvania Tender for 671 Turbine + display base + matching boxcar
2000 - 773 NYC Hudson + display base + matching boxcar
Is that correct?
Good evening all,
The way I look at the situation of collecting any more is that we do not truly "own" anything. We are merely caretakers for a generation to preserve what was passed down to us or managed to acquire on our own. One day hopefully we will pass it on to the next generation, either to our kids or grandkids or to someone else who will treasure it as well. One difference for train collectors is that we get to play with it while we have it. There was only one set I purchased for "investment" purposes and I learned quickly that was a "get poor quickly" idea. As others have said, buy what you like. I hope everyone has a good day.
Keep on training,
Mike C. from Indiana
I don't think Lionel thought the prices would drop. I think they felt the items would hold their value. From their perspective, the secondary market isn't important to them.
In my opinion:
Your third sentence says it all. From Lionel's perspective, the secondary market is not important to them. In fact it is their primary competition. In the beginning of the Modern era, "Lionel" did pay attention to the secondary and collector's markets. They were careful not to make exact reproductions of Prewar or Postwar items. The items were made in alternate paint schemes and marked with different numbers. Eventually Lionel decided a better business model would be to make reproductions of Postwar and Prewar trains, which definately hurt the secondary market. What's interesting, is that modern era Lionel has always exploited the potential collectability of their product, without supporting the concept. As to the Century Club: more product was made and sold than was actually wanted by fans. Stores and basement dealers / speculators purchased more than one Century club membership and bought the items offered on spec. Those who resold early probably did OK (remember the $500 early bird boxcar). Those who sat on them..... not so much.
Did Lionel ever release the numbers of each item that were produced?
I think that may have been the reason for the cost going down rather than up.
Usually the price goes up when the demand is high.
The fact the prices have fallen tells me the demand isn't high. Why would that be? The engines looked nice, and they had many of the best features. I think the reason the demand isn't high is because Lionel made enough to satisfy the demand. Mostly everyone who wanted one or more of the engines joined the Century Club. I'm sure most of those buyers were happy with what they got for their money at the time. The prices were announced ahead of time, so members of the club weren't locked into buying all of them. Members bought only the ones they wanted. Since Lionel produced only as many as were ordered by members, Lionel didn't have unsold inventory. That means Century Club members were the only ones selling them......but to who? Latecomers to the hobby or those who didn't have enough money before would be mainly the ones who would want Century Club offerings. One thing that should also be taken into account is the average age of Century Club members. I would venture to say that average is probably high 40s or 50s. The problem with that is the older members tend to die. This leaves the Century Club items subject to fall into the hands of disinterested parties. They may not be fans of the model train hobby. In their case, getting what the trains were sold for initially may not matter to them as much. They would probably be more open to discounting the price for each in an attempt to not have to bother with them much. I think dying Century Club members and those who just lose interest in the hobby have accounted for satisfying the demand for Century Club trains. THAT'S why prices don't go up.
The problem will probably continue as Century Club members continue to die.
I don't think Lionel thought the prices would drop. I think they felt the items would hold their value. From their perspective, the secondary market isn't important to them. Lionel has always continued to reissue just about all of their products many times. Sometimes they change the paint job, sometimes they don't. They don't care. They just want to satisfy a demand. They want to sell as many of each product as they can. That was exactly what they did with the Century Club. They sold as many as they could by satisfying the demand for each item.
I found this thread while looking for information about Lionel's Century Clubs. It is now over 10 years since the last reply, and I wondered how the original prices for each locomotive, boxcar, or B unit compare to their fair market values now.I was suckered into joining the original Century Club based on the comments posted on the AOL boards by the then president of Lionel. Joined early so I got the early bird boxcar. In the end, I purchased all the boxcars and nothing else. Shortly after their release the early bird boxcar was going for as much as $500. A tableholder at our local shows has had an unboxed one on his table for $25 for the last few shows. I bet he still has it. From what I see, the boxcars are just about worthless. Mine are still mint, in their shippers. I'd guess that on a good day they might sell for 25 to 50 percent of their original cost.I'd guess there are a lot of people who purchased Lionel trains with the expectation that they would retain their value, or even appreciate. Not a good idea. I have never thought of my trains as an investment. Money spent on trains is money spent.
I found this thread while looking for information about Lionel's Century Clubs. It is now over 10 years since the last reply, and I wondered how the original prices for each locomotive, boxcar, or B unit compare to their fair market values now.
Also, does anyone know which year each item came out? I've been adding some of the flyers to my Lionel & K-Line Catalog and Flyer lists but some of them only have copyright years. I know sometimes those don't match the actual years of production such as the NYC AA set. The flyer is copyright 1998, while the release date of the set was actually 1999.
wrmcclellan wrote: BDT - Welcome to the CTT Forum! Like your comment!Join us in the Coffee Pot sometime. I don't think we have many Minnesotans on here!
BDT - Welcome to the CTT Forum! Like your comment!
Join us in the Coffee Pot sometime. I don't think we have many Minnesotans on here!
BDT bunch of good GIZ here, have some fun with us.
laz57
Hi GIZ,
Just got the MTH NYC f3s from TEXASS with the 6 car consist. Hope it runs as good as Lionels?
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