Craignor wrote:Folks, Does the CC NYC f3s have Oddyssy, crew figures, smoke, or traction tires?
Folks,
Does the CC NYC f3s have Oddyssy, crew figures, smoke, or traction tires?
No Odyssey, No smoke, I believe maganatraction and crew figures. I'll check for sure when I hit the ground tomorrow afternoon. I also get some more pics close up.
Trying to update my avatar since 2020
MartyE and Kodi the Husky Dog! ( 3/31/90-9/28/04 ) www.MartyE.com My O Gauge Web Page and Home of Kodiak Junction!
Thanks Marty!
Looking forward to seeing your pics and info.
I will trade you my Phantom set for the NYC F3 set. How about it?
Craig
I believe it was you and I that got caught up in Norms Phantomania years ago. If I recall correctly we both ended up with one...
Sorry you can have my CCF3s when they pry it from cold dead Cab1 I should have some more pics for you tonight as well as more info. Maybe it will be F3amania tonite.
First of all I don't think the Century Club locomotives were as faithfully reproduced as the new PWC Series.
Secondly, there was no discount available and Century Club members paid a premium to get them.
Thirdly, Since it was assumed that they were collectible and would go up in value, anyone who wanted them, joined the club and bought them. Those who were not collecting at the time, have other options now (see First of all)
Skip
TCA 84-20613
Marty,
Oh yeah! I WON the Phantom set on Ebay back then and got my "test run only" set for $700.
When it showed up the drive gear was stripped, the TMCC/RS board was fried, and the wheels spun out on my MTH Realtrax. Boy did I get hosed!
After a new board from Lionel (on the house), a new brass drive gear, and a upgraded traction tired power truck was installed, it runs great.
This is a cool set and I am glad I own it.
Of all my trains, when a kid comes into the train room, its the first one they want me to run!
CCI NYC F3's - checked my set.
Magnetraction, crew figures, dual Pullmor motors, no traction tires, no Odyssey, no smoke. Nice units.
Regards, Roy
Thanks Roy,
Do you remember what the MSRP was, and did you have to pay full boat?
Thanks.
Marty: DANG! Evey time I see your CC pics I drool all over the keyboard. Now you went and soggied-up my new laptop!!!
Dep
Virginian Railroad
I think too many people confuse the term "collectible" with the term "investment". They are not the same. An investment is something that gives you a monetary return. Collectibles are things that are accumalated and enjoyed. If manufacturers thought their trains were investments, they would stamp ""investment series" on the box.
Speculators only have themselves to blame as they flood the market with the same stuff.
Craig - I was a subscriber to both Century Club sets. I did not subscribe for investment or collectability, I did it to run 'em. At the times these locos were released they were significant. Several of the CC locos were the first release of a new sound feature or a new body element/mold (i.e. the new trainmasters and the M10000). I see these units going new/OB for about the same discount of any loco of similar vintage. Some are more, some are less.
Found the paperwork - original price (1999) was $749 including shipping. The separate B unit was $199. The display case was another $179.
wrmcclellan wrote:Found the paperwork - original price (1999) was $749 including shipping. The separate B unit was $199. The display case was another $179.
Only clarification I would add is that the $179 was for the larger case to hold the ABA combo. For CC1, the cases in general came with the engine set(as it did the NYC F3, but it could only hold the AA).
This was the special case where the add on piece made a larger case necessary/desireable. (I suppose such could be said for the turbine, but no one really would display the LL tender and PRR tender together at the same time, I don't think)
-Dave
Hi GIZ,
Just got the MTH NYC f3s from TEXASS with the 6 car consist. Hope it runs as good as Lionels?
laz57
BDT - Welcome to the CTT Forum! Like your comment!
Join us in the Coffee Pot sometime. I don't think we have many Minnesotans on here!
wrmcclellan wrote: BDT - Welcome to the CTT Forum! Like your comment!Join us in the Coffee Pot sometime. I don't think we have many Minnesotans on here!
BDT bunch of good GIZ here, have some fun with us.
I found this thread while looking for information about Lionel's Century Clubs. It is now over 10 years since the last reply, and I wondered how the original prices for each locomotive, boxcar, or B unit compare to their fair market values now.
Also, does anyone know which year each item came out? I've been adding some of the flyers to my Lionel & K-Line Catalog and Flyer lists but some of them only have copyright years. I know sometimes those don't match the actual years of production such as the NYC AA set. The flyer is copyright 1998, while the release date of the set was actually 1999.
I found this thread while looking for information about Lionel's Century Clubs. It is now over 10 years since the last reply, and I wondered how the original prices for each locomotive, boxcar, or B unit compare to their fair market values now.I was suckered into joining the original Century Club based on the comments posted on the AOL boards by the then president of Lionel. Joined early so I got the early bird boxcar. In the end, I purchased all the boxcars and nothing else. Shortly after their release the early bird boxcar was going for as much as $500. A tableholder at our local shows has had an unboxed one on his table for $25 for the last few shows. I bet he still has it. From what I see, the boxcars are just about worthless. Mine are still mint, in their shippers. I'd guess that on a good day they might sell for 25 to 50 percent of their original cost.I'd guess there are a lot of people who purchased Lionel trains with the expectation that they would retain their value, or even appreciate. Not a good idea. I have never thought of my trains as an investment. Money spent on trains is money spent.
Did Lionel ever release the numbers of each item that were produced?
I think that may have been the reason for the cost going down rather than up.
Usually the price goes up when the demand is high.
The fact the prices have fallen tells me the demand isn't high. Why would that be? The engines looked nice, and they had many of the best features. I think the reason the demand isn't high is because Lionel made enough to satisfy the demand. Mostly everyone who wanted one or more of the engines joined the Century Club. I'm sure most of those buyers were happy with what they got for their money at the time. The prices were announced ahead of time, so members of the club weren't locked into buying all of them. Members bought only the ones they wanted. Since Lionel produced only as many as were ordered by members, Lionel didn't have unsold inventory. That means Century Club members were the only ones selling them......but to who? Latecomers to the hobby or those who didn't have enough money before would be mainly the ones who would want Century Club offerings. One thing that should also be taken into account is the average age of Century Club members. I would venture to say that average is probably high 40s or 50s. The problem with that is the older members tend to die. This leaves the Century Club items subject to fall into the hands of disinterested parties. They may not be fans of the model train hobby. In their case, getting what the trains were sold for initially may not matter to them as much. They would probably be more open to discounting the price for each in an attempt to not have to bother with them much. I think dying Century Club members and those who just lose interest in the hobby have accounted for satisfying the demand for Century Club trains. THAT'S why prices don't go up.
The problem will probably continue as Century Club members continue to die.
I don't think Lionel thought the prices would drop. I think they felt the items would hold their value. From their perspective, the secondary market isn't important to them. Lionel has always continued to reissue just about all of their products many times. Sometimes they change the paint job, sometimes they don't. They don't care. They just want to satisfy a demand. They want to sell as many of each product as they can. That was exactly what they did with the Century Club. They sold as many as they could by satisfying the demand for each item.
I don't think Lionel thought the prices would drop. I think they felt the items would hold their value. From their perspective, the secondary market isn't important to them.
In my opinion:
Your third sentence says it all. From Lionel's perspective, the secondary market is not important to them. In fact it is their primary competition. In the beginning of the Modern era, "Lionel" did pay attention to the secondary and collector's markets. They were careful not to make exact reproductions of Prewar or Postwar items. The items were made in alternate paint schemes and marked with different numbers. Eventually Lionel decided a better business model would be to make reproductions of Postwar and Prewar trains, which definately hurt the secondary market. What's interesting, is that modern era Lionel has always exploited the potential collectability of their product, without supporting the concept. As to the Century Club: more product was made and sold than was actually wanted by fans. Stores and basement dealers / speculators purchased more than one Century club membership and bought the items offered on spec. Those who resold early probably did OK (remember the $500 early bird boxcar). Those who sat on them..... not so much.
Lady Firestorm and I have been collecting antiques of various types since we were in college, way back in the Jurassic Period, so let us pass on some collecting wisdom to all you folks...
1) Anything manufactured as a collectable, isn't.
2) "Limited Edition" means limited to how many they can sell.
3) Once the "Limited Edition Collectable" is sold by the manufacturer and it leaves the loading dock, they don't care what happens to it. Price goes up, price goes down, it doesn't matter, they've sold it and banked the money.
4) Buy the antique, collectable, or whatever because you like it and it gives you pleasure to own it and have fun with it. If it appreciates in value so much the better, but that shouldn't be your primary concern.
Works for us. Alway has. Still does.
Good evening all,
The way I look at the situation of collecting any more is that we do not truly "own" anything. We are merely caretakers for a generation to preserve what was passed down to us or managed to acquire on our own. One day hopefully we will pass it on to the next generation, either to our kids or grandkids or to someone else who will treasure it as well. One difference for train collectors is that we get to play with it while we have it. There was only one set I purchased for "investment" purposes and I learned quickly that was a "get poor quickly" idea. As others have said, buy what you like. I hope everyone has a good day.
Keep on training,
Mike C. from Indiana
Firelock76 Lady Firestorm and I have been collecting antiques of various types since we were in college, way back in the Jurassic Period, so let us pass on some collecting wisdom to all you folks... 1) Anything manufactured as a collectable, isn't. 2) "Limited Edition" means limited to how many they can sell. 3) Once the "Limited Edition Collectable" is sold by the manufacturer and it leaves the loading dock, they don't care what happens to it. Price goes up, price goes down, it doesn't matter, they've sold it and banked the money. 4) Buy the antique, collectable, or whatever because you like it and it gives you pleasure to own it and have fun with it. If it appreciates in value so much the better, but that shouldn't be your primary concern. Works for us. Alway has. Still does.
I disagree with statements numbered 1 & 2.
I've seen many items sold as "Limited Editions" and "Collectable"/"Collectible" that are indeed as described. The important thing about them has to be to limit the production to below what the demand is expected to be. The lower the number, the better. That's why the "Century Club" items didn't appreciate. Lionel made enough items for everyone who wanted one. There was NO limit. If Lionel got 9,431 orders for a particular item, I imagine they made about 9,440. Just enough to cover the amount ordered, plus a few extra to replace any damaged or defective ones. If they'd limited the number of each item to 500, I'm sure all would have sold out quickly. If there had been a potential for selling 9,431, but only 500 had been produced, then the 8,431 people who didn't get them would be driving the price up for any that entered the secondary market.
According to my limited research, the items came out in this order:
1997 - 726 Berkshire + display base + matching boxcar
1998 - 671 Turbine + display base + matching boxcar
1998 - 2332 GG1 + display base + matching boxcar
1999 - 2333 A-A + display base + B-unit + display base + matching boxcar
1999 - Pennsylvania Tender for 671 Turbine + display base + matching boxcar
2000 - 773 NYC Hudson + display base + matching boxcar
Is that correct?
I've seen many items sold as "Limited Editions" and "Collectable"/"Collectible" that are indeed as described.
I haven't. Can you give a few specific examples?
As I originally posted I have all the CC locos and I ran/run all of them. I also had/have all the extra cars, tenders, display cases, etc., with the exception of the PA coal train set.
I buy things on the Bay and have watched prices for some time. I see mint/OB CC items averaging at around half original value. Some higher, some lower. Value is higher if all the extras are present. I see these on the bay often and I see the same items can hang forever as folks/businesses try to get the higher prices.
I recently decided it is time to thin the collection down. I sold my used CC II PA Sharknoses and M10000 sets at York for cash. They were in excellent condition. Got about 35% of my investment. I could have gotten more if they were unopened OBs. I also did not have the shipping boxes for the display cases. I was happy with the transaction.
I did not have to pack and ship or deal with possible shipping issues and a remote buyer not being happy (or worse dishonest). Never expected to get much, if anything for them. The buyer was a dealer and obviously is looking to make a reasonable profit on their investment.
If that dealer had items I was interested in he would have worked a trade with me and had that been the case I would have done better than the cash. For me it is more fun to trade with friends/folks face-to-face.
Not trying to get into a fight with you phrankenstine, but didn't you kind of prove my point about "...limited to how many they can sell..." with your supposition of "If Lionel got 9,341 orders for a particular item I imagine they made 9,440?" Sounds like limited to how many they can sell to me.
Mind you, our antique collecting rules are guidelines to follow, and I wasn't intending any shot at Lionel. Keep in mind they're in business to make money, nothing wrong with that at all, and their business happens to be toy trains.
I'll give you an example of one time I knowingly broke my own rule. Remember that series of steam locomotive collector plates put out by "The Hamilton Collection" in 1990? About ten years ago I saw an assortment of those plates at an antique shop and purchased the "Blue Comet" plate, I think it ran about $35. When I see any of those plates at train shows now they usually have $15 price tags on them. Hey, I don't care, I liked it, I bought it, and at any rate it's a gorgeous rendition of the "Blue Comet" locomotive so I enjoy it just the same.
As I said before, buy it because you like it.
I'll tell you, one skill that really comes in handy is patience.
I'll give you a couple of examples from my own experience. About 20 years ago K-Line came out with a Hershey train set. Saw it a a show and it had a $350 price tag on it. I thought it was cool, but couldn't bring myself to spend that kind of money on it. Several years later I saw the same set at a train shop with a $200 price. Passed on it again because I saw some things I'd rather get. Then about five years ago saw the same set at a flea market with an $85 price tag. Bingo! brought it home that day.
Then there's the Lionel Bicentennial Set from 1975. I used to see it at train shows with a price pushing $1,000. (OK, maybe the owner was just "fishing.") Then the prices started to drop. Long story short, I bought the set a few months back for $300, new and in the box and un-run. Good deal, I thought. AND those Bicentennial cars look great pulled by my Lionel "President Washington" 4-6-2! I think they look better that way than pulled by the red, white and blue GE diesel.
Good discussion here.
Then the prices started to drop. Long story short, I bought the set a few months back for $300, new and in the box and un-run.
LOL, I purchased that set new. It was sold open stock, with the pieces being release over several years. As I recall, it started in 1974 and finished up in 1976. That was before I started keeping track of what I paid for things. I know I purchased the whole set mail order. I wonder what I paid. I would guess around $10 per car, and $50-$75 for the loco. That would be right around $190-$215 for the set. Anybody have any old train mags with prices? There is a good chance I purchased my set from Glenn Uhl.
By the way, if I recall correctly, most of the cars were quite common, and realtively inexpensive on the secondary market. Supposedly one car was in short supply and worth a significant premium. I think it was the 7611 New York Boxcar.
Interesting Mr. Burfle. According to the price guide I have (from 2007) the average Bicentennial car goes for around $20 to $25, the odd-man-out is the Virginia car with a $150 price tag. Who knows why? The locomotive and caboose combo shows at $90 to $100. Adding it all up and being conservative it comes to $480, so $300 seemed like a pretty good deal. Anyway I liked the set, so I'm sure not sorry I got it, and as I said these things were all new-in-the-box. They ain't makin' any more of 'em, that's for sure!
And if the guy selling it made some money on it, that's OK with me too.
Firelock76 Interesting Mr. Burfle. According to the price guide I have (from 2007) the average Bicentennial car goes for around $20 to $25, the odd-man-out is the Virginia car with a $150 price tag. Who knows why? The locomotive and caboose combo shows at $90 to $100. Adding it all up and being conservative it comes to $480, so $300 seemed like a pretty good deal. Anyway I liked the set, so I'm sure not sorry I got it, and as I said these things were all new-in-the-box. They ain't makin' any more of 'em, that's for sure! And if the guy selling it made some money on it, that's OK with me too.
Didn't mean to write that you didn't get a good deal. At one time I don't think you could have touched the set for $480. And I guess I got the "hot" car wrong. The prices I was guestimating were the original street prices, before any external pressures affected the price. I'd still like to know what the street prices at release were back in 1974-76.I still have my set. The loco and first few cars have just a little track time. I guess I decided that I didn't like running the set that much. I purchased the rest of the set anyway. I couldn't see only having part of it.
No offense taken at all. I'd sure like to know what the original retail prices on the Bicentennial units were myself, but since the se "set" came out 40+ years ago there's no way to know without some serious digging, which I'm not sure I've got the urge to do. And unless it's really scarce I can't figure out why the Virginia car goes for what it does. Maybe a hard-core Lionel collector can clue us in.
PS: Not part of the Bicentennial set but if you run into a "President Washington" 4-6-2 grab it! It's a good runner.
And unless it's really scarce I can't figure out why the Virginia car goes for what it does. Maybe a hard-core Lionel collector can clue us in.After getting the rare car wrong I checked a couple of price guides. In the Greenberg one I checked, they openly admit that they don't know why the Virginia car is harder to find and more expensive. They mention that some may have gone to the state of Virginia as a promotion. I can tell you that there were a lot of people who thought that Lionel would occasionally underproduce some items to create shortages that would fuel the buying frenzy. Preorder or miss out! Did Lionel really do this?...... nobody really knows. Back in the 1970's there were some mail order dealers advertising Lionel product in either RMC or MR. I don't think I have any of those magazines any longer. If I have some time later I will look. Any current production items I purchased back then would have been mail order from one of those advertiser.
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