I'm building a wall O gauge railway...

[Wes Whitmore]

Well I picked up a box of toggles after work and installed one along side the one I already had, plus a third that actually lined up with a stud and I installed it with a screw and finish washer.  I placed my Buckeye train on there to see how it all looked.  I has the visability that I wanted, and with toggles that are rated at 70 lbs, I think this will work just fine not using a shelf, or a ledger board. 

Thanks,

Wes

 

[lionelsoni]

Four ties fastened to narrow supports for each 35.5-inch section should be enough to keep it solidly connected to the next section.  I think it would be overkill to require two ties to be screwed to the same support, even those on opposite sides of a rail joint.  In fact, the corners would make it impossible for any of the straights to come loose, even if none of them were tied down (not that I'm recommending that!).

[RXRon]

My L shaped 22 X 12 around  the  walls  layout  is  mostly on 4 ft. long  free  standing  shelves  I built.  They are 18 inches  wide  and  stand  about 42" high.   The  loops  at  each  end  are  freestanding Tables,  again  custom  sized  for  the  track  layout  and  built  by  me.   The  cool  thing  about  the  shelving  is  it  becomes  a  modular (movable) layout  and includes  other  shelves  below  the  layout  for   other  displays  of  railroad or  model  things.   Under  the  loop  tables  are  great  for  storage.

    

[Wes Whitmore]

Hey, what about using a toggle bolt in the vertical configuration?  Then I wouldn't need the ledger board at all.  Any thoughts?

I found this, which is pretty much what I'm doing after moving to vertical mounting.  As a plus, i can tweak the mount to get it exactly level since the holes for the toggle is pretty big and everything will move around a little until it's snugged down.

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/bath/accy/towlbar.html

Wes

[Wes Whitmore]

I'm probably going to stick with the ply, as all of the half wall, baseboard, and guitar boards are all done in plywood.  Think "Chipotle", minus the aluminum sheeting. 

I need to keep the mounts wide enough to put both ties on a joined piece of track on so I can screw them down to the mount.   I think I will keep my mounts, but add the ledger board for strength, as well as the triangle piece.  That should be plenty strong enough for my needs.

Wes

[lionelsoni]

I used 1/2-inch-thick primed (and nevermore painted) molding, ripped to 2 1/2 inches, the dimension of the corner braces that my track is mounted to, because I was crossing three windows and didn't want to obscure any more of the view than necessary.  With no window gaps to deal with, you can probably find suitable molding that would be easier to work with as-is and would look better than plywood.

You may be able to see from the pictures that I let the plywood corner shelf into the ledger, so that it becomes the support for that in the corner.

Even if you don't want to go to anything like the steel braces that I used, you can probably shrink your bracket design to a much smaller footprint on the wall if it is attached to the ledger.  For example, you could use a simple one-piece triangle or tapered rectangle on edge, with its top edge flush with the flat top of the ledger.  You could screw a small mending plate across the top of the joint, which would take the tension load, instead of a screw from the back.  (You might need the extra thickness of a 1x4 for this.)

[Wes Whitmore]

Ok, so the mount itself is probably ok then?  I'll still try to break one tonight when I get home.

I did the drywall, and it's all 1/2".  That sophet (sp) houses all of my A/C and an I beam).   I can get into that sophet, but it doesn't do anything for most of the other walls that I can't get behind.

I see where you are saying that I could be making a weak point in the drywall.   Those metal fasteners are no more than 1.25" apart.  Maybe putting one above and one below the track is the better way to do it. 

In reality, using 1/2" baltic birch ledger all around the room is probably the way to do it..  Not the process I wanted to take, but all of your points are valid.  I want this to last a long time.  I could also router a channel down the back of the ledger board so I can fish some wire through there if I needed it.

 So if I use a ledger board, can I go back to the two horizonal screws?  Does it matter at that point?  I could put some glue on there too.

Thanks,
Wes

[Anonymous]

Yea, I was concerned about strength.  I pondered that for a long time.  I wanted to keep it all wood, and I didn't want the white rubbermaid shelf look.  I actually was going to put a long triangle wedge on the mount (1.5" x 4.5" triangle) that would give support to the 3/4" piece of ply.  But I wasn't sold on the idea after building this.  I have a 3.5" screw going though the back of the plate through the 3/5 piece (it's 5" long), and I glued it with epoxy.  It seems really strong, and the screw tightened up well because of the "better" filler wood between the laminates.  I pulled on it pretty hard and it didn't move, but over time, you guys might be right.  I have a biscuit jointer if that will help.   I figured that, and the fact that I am putting these every 8 3/4" would pretty much make this work OK. 

  I was going to go back and put a screw in the bottom of the mount in the center, where I was going to put the triangle wedge to help keep the mount put.  Does that change things on the orientation of the screws, or would you still suggest I put them vertical?  Right now, that mount isn't in a stud.  I used metal drywall fasteners.  They are the ones that screw in like a big screw, and then accept a #8 screw in the center of them.   If I find one that is lined up with a stud, then I'll screw directly into the stud.

The ledger board is doable.  I could use 1/2" birch, but I have some 1/4" that I would love to use up (and it's less bulky).   If I glued them on the ledger board, I bet I could get away with using the 1/4".

Thanks for all of the help.  It's a good thing you guys are here.

Wes

3.5" screw!  Well then I guess you probably don't need the triangle brace underneath because your track is basicly resting on the screws!

I would go vertical on the mount screws, honestly.  Your drywall is probably at most 1/2" thick (if the builders did it right!) and putting two metal drywall anchors so close together really does cause a weak spot to form.

1/4 inch ply won't give you enough grip for the screws.  You definitely would need 1/2 inch ply if going with the ledger board.  If you have a lot of 1/4 inch then you may be able to epoxy two layers together to create a 1/2 board.  The problem here is the double 1/4 may not = 1/2... it is frustrating!

[Wes Whitmore]

So with my exceptional artist skills (yea right!), here is what I was talking about with the triangle.  If this isn't deemed strong enough, then I can flip the mount over and use a much bigger triangle.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804084295934/10

Thanks,
Wes

[Wes Whitmore]

Yea, I was concerned about strength.  I pondered that for a long time.  I wanted to keep it all wood, and I didn't want the white rubbermaid shelf look.  I actually was going to put a long triangle wedge on the mount (1.5" x 4.5" triangle) that would give support to the 3/4" piece of ply.  But I wasn't sold on the idea after building this.  I have a 3.5" screw going though the back of the plate through the 3/5 piece (it's 5" long), and I glued it with epoxy.  It seems really strong, and the screw tightened up well because of the "better" filler wood between the laminates.  I pulled on it pretty hard and it didn't move, but over time, you guys might be right.  I have a biscuit jointer if that will help.   I figured that, and the fact that I am putting these every 8 3/4" would pretty much make this work OK. 

  I was going to go back and put a screw in the bottom of the mount in the center, where I was going to put the triangle wedge to help keep the mount put.  Does that change things on the orientation of the screws, or would you still suggest I put them vertical?  Right now, that mount isn't in a stud.  I used metal drywall fasteners.  They are the ones that screw in like a big screw, and then accept a #8 screw in the center of them.   If I find one that is lined up with a stud, then I'll screw directly into the stud.

The ledger board is doable.  I could use 1/2" birch, but I have some 1/4" that I would love to use up (and it's less bulky).   If I glued them on the ledger board, I bet I could get away with using the 1/4".

Thanks for all of the help.  It's a good thing you guys are here.

Wes

[Anonymous]

Bob is absolutely correct.  The brackets look awesome and another lower support wouldn't detracted from their appearance.  Another thing to consider... I would venture to guess that your first bracket is in a stud (side by side screws into the wall).  The problem with doing this in the open field of the drywall is you are going to create a weak spot in the dry wall and it will easily be ripped out.  If you are going this route, put your two screws vertically instead of horizontally.

Bob's note about endgrain resistance should be a big concern to you.  End grain has minimal hold with dimensional lumber, and is even worse when using ply or laminated or OSB.  Some carpenter's or gorilla glue will give you some added strength, but the lower support would be the most structurally sound solution.

To test the strength of your joint, build a bracket and try to bend the 'shelf' leg off the wall leg... I'm guessing with 20 or so lbs of pressure is gives.

[lionelsoni]

From your pictures, it does look like you're putting it just above the door, which I'm guessing is 30"x80", at about 7 feet.

If you're planning to put screws through the vertical piece of the bracket into the horizontal piece, you might want to reconsider.  Building codes usually consider that a fastener into the end grain has no resistance to withdrawal at all.  It may feel firm when new but can loosen with time.  It wouldn't take much of a sag in one bracket to send a train to the floor.  I would put a wood or metal corner brace on there, if you don't waht to go all the way to a metal support.  You could put a metal brace on the top without its being very obvious.

Unless you want it for appearance, any bracket length past the track width is wasted.

With the 9-inch spacing (actually closer to 8 7/8), you will miss most of the studs, however they are spaced.  Even with the 12-inches that I suggested, you will still miss most of them, assuming that they are on the usual 16-inch centers.  A ledger would allow you to put the track supports wherever you need them while transferring all the load directly to the studs.

[jimhaleyscomet]

Those pictures say a thousand words.  It sure looks like you are on the exactly right track!  I love the openness

 

Jim H 

[Wes Whitmore]

Thanks for all of the ideas guys!  I just finally sat down and had a chance to read all of these posts.  I guess I'll post what I did tonight and see if it changes any ideas.  I thought about the crown molding, but I didn't want to find a way to build it out in the corner (since I can't bend it).  I decided that I really wanted to see as much as the train as possible, and I think what I am doing will work out.  The wife looked at it and said she thought it was going to look fine, which is ultimately the deciding factor,when you think about it.

As for why I was going to put it 9"?  Well I could probably space it out to 12 if I used the 35" piece, but if I used the 9" pieces or corners, I would need to tack them down to something so they dont fall apart, or flex, so I decided to just put one at every splice.

Here are a few pictures to give you some ideas.  I only got one mounted today, and the piece of track is just sitting up there.  Visualize a mount at every "double" railroad tie.  I think by looking under it, you can see how much better I can see under and around the train.  Now if it holds up...

Thanks,
Wes

[lionelsoni]

Wes, here's another way of looking at the spiral-curve idea:  If easing into the curve by using O72-O27-O72 curves allows you to put the straight sections just 1 3/4 inches closer to the wall compared to O27-O27, the middle of the O72-O27-O72 spiral corner will be no farther from the wall than the O27-O27 circular corner would have been.

[lionelsoni]

3/4 x 5 1/2 for the 1x6.  In bigger sizes, it gets worse:  A 2x8 is 1 1/2 x 7 1/4.

Now plywood is made 1/32-inch scant.  What was 1/2 inch is now 15/32.

Decking lumber is often sold in 1.25-inch nominal thickness, which is actually 1-inch thick.

[Anonymous]

Wes, the reason for using the O72s is to get the track actually closer to the wall.  The curves in the corners are out a little farther, but the straight track can be much closer because of the O72.  Even so, the farthest my curves get from the corner of the room is (diagonally to the farthest end of the ties) 11 inches.

I endorse Doug's advice about the ledger.  That's what I have on the two walls where there is no plywood.  It also bridges the gaps across the tops of three windows that are higher than the door.  You said your track is 7'6 high.  A standard door is 6'8.  You might consider putting the track just above that.

I'm a little surprised that you decided to go with 9-inch support spacing.  I tested with my heaviest locomotive (Rail King Big Boy), not that I intended to run it up there, and concluded that 12 inches was as close as I needed to go.

Jim, you're living in the past!...;-)  Two-by-fours are now 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.

Never could understand that... how do you lose 1/2 inch on dept and width and still call it a 2 x 4?  Actually a 1x6 is 3/4" x 5.75"!  That just drives me nuts!  Makes it very difficult to cut things correctly (I forget sometimes about the difference in size), if you want 1" you have to buy 1.25", unfortunately they don't sell 1.25 x 6.25 boards! :(

Guess you always could go to a local sawmill if you can find one!

[lionelsoni]

Wes, the reason for using the O72s is to get the track actually closer to the wall.  The curves in the corners are out a little farther, but the straight track can be much closer because of the O72.  Even so, the farthest my curves get from the corner of the room is (diagonally to the farthest end of the ties) 11 inches.

I endorse Doug's advice about the ledger.  That's what I have on the two walls where there is no plywood.  It also bridges the gaps across the tops of three windows that are higher than the door.  You said your track is 7'6 high.  A standard door is 6'8.  You might consider putting the track just above that.

I'm a little surprised that you decided to go with 9-inch support spacing.  I tested with my heaviest locomotive (Rail King Big Boy), not that I intended to run it up there, and concluded that 12 inches was as close as I needed to go.

Jim, you're living in the past!...;-)  Two-by-fours are now 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.

[jimhaleyscomet]

This a a way wild idea but how about just using 2x4  or 2x6 mounted to the wall for the straight runs. Perhaps even 1x6 would work.   Predrill holes in the long dimension and mount it so the 3-3/4 (or 5-3/4) inch side is horizontal.  Add small plywood platforms for the curves on top of 1x3s or 2x3s (or 1x6's). 

 The main idea is to use a continuous support.  Then you will not need to bring it out or down as far and it should dissappear into the wall.   

 

Jim H 

[Anonymous]

Wess,
Ever thought of using a 'stepped' crown molding?  You could eliminate the brackets and use the crown to support the horizontal subroadbed.

I saw this done at a restaurant many years ago.  Basicly what they did was take a 1x6 and nail that to the wall parallel to the line.  They then attached 1.4 round cove molding (so the curve is concave, not convex) to the bottom.  Then they took a 1 x 4 and nailed that to the 1x6, top edge even.  Then nailed a dental molding along the bottom of the 1x4.  Then they found a 3.5 inch crown and attached that to the 1x4 so the top was parallel to the top of the 1x6 and 1x4.  The result was 3+ inches of support for the ply subroad bed.

It looked awesome!  I know it maybe very expensive, but you could use paint grade boards to reduce the cost.

[dougdagrump]

Wes,

For mine, much smaller then what you are proposing, I used the Baltic birch for the platform and made brackets from 1x3 and 1x2 birch. It would be very costly to do yours this way. How about installing a ledger board around the entire room, secured to wall studs, and mount your support brackets at whatever interval required.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Wes, have you ever considered plexiglas for your shelf?   I've seen it done. 

[Wes Whitmore]

Wow, that's a lot of pictures.  I assume that was yours with the white corners shelves?  I only looked at page 1. 

So it looks like it will work though.  My MTH Buckeye steam 2-8-0 works great on the 027 corners.  I can put 072s in there if I need too, but I would like to keep it close to the wall as possible.  Most of my straights are 35" long straits, but I can't span more than a 9" section without sag on the mock-up.

Do you have any more pictures of the entire railway?

Thanks for the insight.  At least I know it can be done. 

 Wes

[palallin]

What kind of equipment are you running?

[lionelsoni]

My around-the-walls track is naked K-Line O27 36-inch straights supported by 2 1/2 x 9/16-inch corner braces every foot.  The braces are screwed into the 1/5-inch plywood that covers the drywall.  (I have many other tracks on the walls for storage.)  The braces fit snugly between the curled-up edges of the ties and the rails.  The track is fastened to the braces with machine screws and fender washers over the rail flanges.  Small bits of cardboard insulate the center rail from the washers and braces.

This puts the track quite close to the wall.  In the corners, I use spiral curves to ease the track away from the wall before turning more sharply.  My corners are O72-O27-O72, on small plywood shelves.  This takes up not much more room than a simple O27-O27 corner.

Here are some pictures that Dave Vergun took:

http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/3/755674/ShowPost.aspx#755674

 

[Wes Whitmore]

This seems like a great place to post some questions for the veterans of the hobby.  I wanted to post it in Classic Toy Trains since I think it hits the group of people I want to reach better than people interested in scale modeling.

I have gathered up a fair amount of Lionel 027 gauge track for my ceiling layout.  This was before I knew about the MTH track, but it's too late and expensive to change now.

I am building a wall railway (not ceiling drop-mounted) It's been hard to find examples of successfully installed "home brew" mounting systems.  I have a couple, and they have been pretty good.  Most of it is for G scale, but I'm particial to O gauge, and sticking to it!

I finished 1/2 of my basement (450 sq feet) last winter, and had planned on running a train around the ceiling for years, and finally I am working on the project.  I have mapped out my path, and now I'm starting the project.  I have 4 tunnels in the system that dissapear to other rooms.  It's one large 90' loop.  Yesterday I drew my shelf height line around the room, and tonight I will mount a couple of the prototype mounts that I have already built and stained.   

My mounts are made from 1/2" 13 layer baltic birch for the verical plate, and 3/4" 5 layer birch plywood for the horizonal plate.  It's basically a T turned sideways and mounted into the wall.  The 3/4" plate is 2" wide, and I will make it as long as the shelf is wide.  the veritical plate is 3" wide, and 5" tall.  I will mount this directly into the drywall.  I'll use a screw in drywall achor if there doesn't happen to be a stud where I need it to be. 

So I have been very indecisive on one aspect of the design, which is where I need opinions from people with experience with 027 gauge track.  I originally wanted to put a "sidways T mount" every 9" (the lengh of a single Lionel strait).  I don't know if that many mounts will look stupid until I get a couple mounted.  I plan on just laying the track directly on the mount (no shelf), and screw down both ends of track at each "joint".  Of course this makes the track carry the weight of the train in between mounts.  Test mockup shows no track flex that I can see from the tubular track.  I wanted to try this method out first because if it works, people could actually view the bottom of the train.  This would largely increase the amount of train you could see from the ground.  The train is around 7.5' off of the ground, and around 7" from the drywalled ceiling. 

I'm wondering what the negatives of this are.  No one has done this that I can see, so there has to be some drawback (besides a bunch of mounts mounted around the room).  I won't be installing any switching track on this railway, and I can get wire to various parts of the track for power points, so that shouldn't be an issue if I need more power.

My other option is to mount the train on a shelf, with a routered channel for wire, and feed power around the track with wire in that channel.  It's how most people do it. 

 If I do put a building, billboard, or watertower in this layout, I'll omit the T mounts there and build a small shelf in their place.

 

I guess i want to make it as open as possible.  It seems that the shelf blocks most of the systems that I see.

I will post some pictures of the mounts and the room soon.  It might paint a better picture of what i am trying to describe.

Thanks for everything,  Any insight at all might do wonders.

Wes