That design was scrapped because I didn't use a shelf there.
I did just pick up my MTH water tower, and a girder bidge. After seeing that tower, I think I am going to go back to running the train down that 19' long staight with some type of elavation on a shelf, instead of just the wood mounts. That is so I can put a shelf 15" from the ceiling, and use my water tower, plus more. I'm thinking I can use a 12" shelf. The track will be on the back of that shelf. I am either going to use store purchased trusses, or build up a hillside and place the train on top of it. I am estimating the track to be around 7" higher than the shelf height. Any ideas on trusses that long, or hints on building a steep hillside. If I use trusses, then there is much more room to model. That will be a learning experience.
Thanks,Wes
yer really moving along wes. I noticed in your photo album you have a curve coming off a switch that goes out and then comes back in to get the tracks close together. A fellow showed me a trick using an o72 switch, where, instead of using a 72" curve coming off it, use one half of an o31 curve. The angle is the same, and the tracks are close together.
Keep carving away at it.
The most reliable way to tell O27-profile track from O31 is the length of the ties, which are 2 inches and 2 1/4 inches, respectively.
For O27-profile track, the chord length, that is, the distance as the crow flies from one end to the other of the center rail is in inches
O27 9.567 (anyone, 8 per circle)
O34 12.055 (Marx, 8 per circle)
O42 10.482 (K-Line, 12 per circle)
O54 10.291 (K-Line, 16 per circle)
O72 13.754 (K-Line, 16 per circle)
For O31-profile O31 track the chord length is 10.824 inches.
Bob Nelson
You can tell if you can figure out how many pieces make up a corner. 2 pieces is probably an 027, 3 pieces is probably a 042, and 4 pieces is at leat an 054, but could be bigger. 027 has brown ties, and high rail has black ties. The black rail goes bigger in diameter than the 027 (027 comes in 027 to 054). Also, K line and 027 match up height wise, and high rail will require a shim under the 027 track. K line has more than 3 ties on each piece (maybe 5 ties). If that doesn't work, take a piece to a hobby shop that is open, and compare what you have to what they have labeled for you.
Wes
I just found this link. I have been doing the same thing in a room. I used brackets and shelf board and was trying to figure a better curve than 027. I have one odd piece of Lionel and one odd piece of K-Line track (both purchased in a lot of stuff on the last day of a hobby store going out of business) that I don't know what the radius/diameter is. Any place that shows various track piece dimensions?
Mine won't be working for another week or two probably, I'm still working on it
Been wanting to enjoy my Trains I had when I was a kid, and my son will like to see them run I know.
I'll try and get some pictures when I'm a little closer.
My layout is getting better. I realized that I was over analyzing everything because I wanted to do it right the first time, but then I realized that there are a bunch of ways to do it. I was trying to engineer this great line based on restrictions of the room (Low ceilings but a track that was high on the wall to get over the door, wide sweeping curves, shelf widths, and mounting options). I just decided to keep building and don't get hung up on the specifics. They will work themselves out themselves. The track is so close to the ceiling that I really can't do any scenery because it couldn't be seen, so I'm just going to finish hanging the track, and then work on a real layout to satisfy the modeling needs.
I did install my dad's (he's 60 now) childhood Marx metal bridge last night. It added just what was needed at the section of track between the 54" curve and the sump pump closet. I was forced to build that straight section off of the wall because of the tunnel (and a structural stud in the closet). I also started installing my next 54" curve on the diagonal wall. I was able to keep the diagonal straight (just after the 54" 45 curve) almost as close to the wall as the long strait. Now I just need to build more mounts. That has been the downfall of not just putting up a shelf. Those mounts take a long time to make in comparison to ripping down a shelf and hanging it, but I like the visability that I get from below.
The rest of my track for the hidden section should be in today, so I will have all the track I need to finish.
Thanks for the pictures,
Wes,
check your mail. I sent a few pics of my layout as you requested. Looks like you're doing great on your layout so far.
Bruce Webster
They are posted under "The start of the layout" topic..search Yallaen and you'll find them
Those are MTH portals. You can get them in single or double widths, and the smoke stain is comes on them. They were $15 each, I believe. I just used a drywall saw, like you said.
I'll take some pictures of your track if you have them!
Wes..
Those pics are great..I'm adding more on my shelf layout here in a bit..
I'm to the point of tackling the wall openings. Did you just use a drywall saw for yours? And who made your portals? I just got a pair of Lionel portals at the local hobby shop..don't know if I really like them..yours look a lot better I think..
Did you do the smoke etching on the portals? Or did it come like that?
I started ripping down the birch ply for the 18ft long shelf today. I have decided on a 7.25" deep shelf, and it will be 7.5" from the ceiling. I'll try to post some pictures after I get some of it up.
I worked on the sump pump curve a little today. I built two of the three mounts to hold my plywood board, which hopefully I will get done tomorrow. I ordered the rest of my 042 curves from my loop, and picked up some 052 curves and long straights today as well.
There are some pictures of the Buckeye train on the rails as well. It's lost some luster after yesterday, but hey, 2nd place is still pretty good.
Also, I think I might have a solution to my shelf/track being too high to do any scenery on. I could use trusses to "hold" the track above a shelf that is mounted lower on the wall than the 2 walls I have now (making the track still level). If I can even lower it 5 inches, that would probably be low enough to work. I think I will try it on the corner that I just worked on using a corner shelf close to the height of the bottom of the sophet. Anyone have plans on building trusses?
Thanks for looking! It's not Franks, but I gotta learn sometime.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151551781/7
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151535986/4
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151526708/5
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151551769/6
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151542628/0
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151542617/1
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151561709/2
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151561692/3
Well I got lucky and found some 052 curves right here near my work. Robby's Hobbies has a ton of them. I only purchased 4 pieces to see what if I liked the corner or not. It makes a big circle! Anyhow, I placed it on top of my fixed 027 corner for comparison. It's much further from the wall, but also much more gradual, and the train navigates much more naturally. I still have to support it, but it runs great. The following pictures compares the 027, 042, and 054. I also tried the spiral 054-027-054, and it's great until it hits the 027 piece, then I think it puts too much bind on my 2-8-0. I have a picture of the engine, and you can see the wheels are almost popping out of the track. There is also a picture showing how much car leans over the inside rail. Lastly, you can see the whole train navigating through the 054, which is exactly how I wanted it to look. I might make a shelf, but it's do deep that you wouldn't see anything. I will most likely just support it from the ceiling.
The 054 will work on my diagonal wall, but it won't fit in the sump pump closet, so I am going to have to stick with the 042 in there, and one more location that is only 50" wide (a hallway).
Just wanted to give you an update. Not much has been going on, but tonight was a good one. That hacksaw worked well!
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804148342085/3
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804148342133/0
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804148360712/1
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804148327687/2
I would emagine the flanged wheelbase would be rather long before you modification on the tender. My MTH 2-8-0 blind wheels are what hang over too much on the 027 corners. It seems to work fine, but I don't trust it when it's overhead. You get a different perspecive when you can see under the train and watch the blind wheels move over the outside rail! Making that corner at least a 42" should help that. o52 would be even better. And I don't think I spiral is going to fix the issue as just about all 8 wheels fit on one piece of 027 curve now, and that's the part I don't like.
Now to actually find someone who has track other than 027 curves in stock in Columbus, OH. I can't seem to find any. Where are people finding their track besides the internet?
Another way to support the corner would be to put ledgers on the non-diagonal walls, even though you're not using them generally, and long enough to tie into two but better three studs, and then extend them out to support the corner track, maybe with a diagonal piece joining the cantilevered ledgers to run under the diagonal track or nearly so.
I don't run the Big Boy on the overhead track, although I designed the track to be able to hold its weight. My track centerline is only 1 7/8 inches from the wall; so even with the spirals the Big Boy can't quite get around the corners. On the main layout, the Big Boy takes full O27 curves, not just spirals.
The only modification to the locomotive itself was to countersink a screw whose protruding head kept the link between the leading truck and the front-engine frame from swinging as far to the side as it needed to go. On the tender, I swapped axles to put the flanged wheels closer inboard: blind, flanged, blind, flanged, blind. I cut off the bottom steps to clear the O27 switch machines. And I replaced the tether by a longer one that MTH sells.
I see what you are saying. I guess I'll just have to pull the track off of the diagonal wall then, to get my clearance and line of that 2' tunnel entrance. It might require that I hang the diagonal from the ceiling instead of the wall, as it might be a decent distance, but at least I can use bigger corners if need be. I'll probably just use the 2 052 curves, as I don't need 072, and 027 might be too tight, although it sounds like you are running that long Big Boy through an 027. What modifications did you have to do to the tender? Was it just not passing through the 027 section of your spiral corner? Any pictures of that train on your shelf?
By the way, I picked up more wood from mounts and the corner shelf today. That means I need to figure out what I want to do for my corners pretty quickly.
I get it now. Look at it this way: Keep the non-diagonal tracks, that is, the track through the tunnel and the track past the diagonal corner wall along the wall that is at right angles to the tunnel track, parallel to the walls at whatever distance you need from the walls. Start 45-degree curves right at the 45-degree corners, with the track across the 5-foot diagonal wall spaced out from that wall as much as the curves dictate. Five feet of diagonal wall corresponds to about 3 1/2 feet in the directions of the other walls; so you should be able to use any curvature you want, including O72. The gentler the curves, the farther the diagonal track will be from the diagonal wall; but the non-diagonal straight tracks will be as close to the walls as you need them to be.
That's the same Big Boy that I run on O27. I had to make a few minor modifications, mostly to the tender.
Sorry Bob, it's an outside corner 45 degree corner. It then travels 5 feet, then crankes around the other 45 degree uhtil it's parallel with my first line of track I layed. Then it goes for 2 feet and passes through a tunnel that centers 5" from the wall (the center rail on the track is also at 5" there). Since I have to make sure I clear the corner when the train makes the turn, I almost have to make the first 45 degree turn just past the wall, which can be done with a 027 corner and still line up with the tunnel, but since the big curve of an o54 or 072 is large, it looks like I would need to pull the track much further off of the wall when it enters the tunnel. Outside corners aren't nice.
You would need two pieces of O72 for a 45-degree corner, just as you would for O54.
I'm afraid I don't understand the comment, "but it is going to pull off the wall too much to align with the straight piece that is 3" off of the wall measured from the inside track".
Big Boys were designed for heavy freight and likely never coupled up to a passenger train. But I tell myself that they may have occasionally pulled passenger trains occasionally during the war, what with the shortages of equipment, when I do it with mine.
Bruce,
No problem at all. Bob has helped me a ton, and I keep coming back to his posts when I'm not sure what I'm doing. You can try to email me one picture at a time if you want. I'll even post them for you if you would like.
So I have a wall with two 45 degree angles in them, and I want to keep the track close to the wall. Do you think that I can use a single piece of O27, or will even one piece be too sharp to make a reliable line? I figure if your O72 can be used i the spiral, then a single track piece would probably be OK. If not, then I am going to have some troubles keeping the lines clean around the room. It probably depends on the train more than anything I guess. I could use two pieces of O52 to get the 45, but it is going to pull off the wall too much to align with the straight piece that is 3" off of the wall measured from the inside track.
My goal is to make this track sturdy enough to put a MTH (O31 safe) big boy on there with the passenger cars. It's a long train.
I'm sorry I haven't been able to send more pictures of my shelf layout as you requested. Every attempt has been fruitless due to something I can't understand. I'll try to post them once I figure out what I'm doing wrong.
I think you've been getting great assistance from Bob. I've found his benchwork engineering, electical knowhow and mechanical inovations to be first rate. Even though he may not know it, he's been teaching us all a lot about problem solving here in the forum.
Wel it's my Lionel that was having troubles navigating the turn. The MTH does a better job, and the speed control feature just makes it a better performer on O27 corners. Still, I wouldn't mind making it a little safer, and look better too. There is a lot of train hanging over the rail in those O27 curves, especially with the Alaskcan Diesel from Lionel. I took a picture of the O42 track on top of the O27 curve to show the difference. It's night and day. I'm not sure if I should step up to O54 just to make it even wider. I guess I could make a spiral curve with O54-O27-O54 as well.
It depends on whether the curvature restriction is due to the wheelbase of the individual trucks or engines or on the length between them and the angle through which they will turn. For example, my 773 and my Big Boy's centipede tender originally had trouble just because the middle wheels, even though they were blind, touched the center rail on switches. This happened even within the single curved section of a switch. On the other hand, the engines of the Big Boy had no problem, because of their shorter individual wheelbases.
I think that many times, manufacturers specify a curvature more for aesthetics or marketing than for mechanics. MTH seems to want to restrict everything they make to O31, even though much of it has no problem with O27 (which they don't make...;-).
Depth from wall aside, is the O72-O27-O72 curve still limit the trains that can run on it? Does that O27 piece still create problems with long axle locomotives?
I am thinking of hanging that center piece from the ceiling anyhow, since my track is so close to the ceiling, and I wouldn't be able to see any scenery that I put on a wall mounted shelf. If that is the case, I can just go with an O54 or even an O72 curve. That way, I'm not limited to trains that can run on it in th future.
I got a full circle (16 pieces) of K-Line O72 from http://www.hobbylinc.com/ in August for just under $40, including shipping.
The spiral is smoother than a single-radius curve, because the curvature increases gradually (okay, in two steps rather than one in this toy-train case). Prototype railroads use them extensively, with many more steps, to ease into curves.
Although an O42-O42-O42 curve starts about 2 3/4 inches closer to the corner than an O72-O27-O72 curve does, the center of the O42-O42-O42 curve is 3/4 inch farther from the corner. So they're quite similar in the space they occupy. But the gentler O72 start to the curve means that the spiral's overhang is no worse than that of a complete O72-O72-O72-O72 curve; so the tangent track can be closer to the wall than with the similar-sized O42-O42-O42 curve.
Another thought: Overhang increases approximately inversely as the square of the track radius, for any particular car or locomotive. So O42 produces about 3 times the overhang that O72 does. (And O27 about 8 times.)
I picked up a 42" Kline corner from my local hobby shop. It's the only shop I know if that has something other than 027 27" curved pieces. That curve is much better. If I could find some Kline 72" curves, I would love to try your idea. Does the single 027 profile piece still cause any problems with trains navigating? Would a complete 42" corner, although it's out from the wall, create smoother operation because of that single 27" curve piece? If I'm going to try to hunt down some Kline track, I want to make sure it's worth it. If not, I'll just order Lionel's 42" or the 54" track, which I should be able to find.
K-Line made O72 in O27 profile. You can probably still find sellers on the internet who have it in stock. I will repeat my suggestion of spiral curves that I made in the reply to your first posting:
In the corners, I use spiral curves to ease the track away from the wall before turning more sharply. My corners are O72-O27-O72, on small plywood shelves. This takes up not much more room than a simple O27-O27 corner.
Here are some pictures that Dave Vergun took:
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/3/755674/ShowPost.aspx#755674
You can see that the corners, even though they include O72, are not very large at all, because most of the turning happens in the O27 section in the middle of the curve. My tangent track is only 1 7/8 inch from the wall.
Sotaboy,
I'm sorry to hear about that. I'll go read about your issues with getting it completed.
I fastened down track to the two walls worth of mounts. After finding a site that does highend G scale ceiling track, I found a few more things I can do that will make it look a little better as it is, and still allow me to see the trains through the track from below.
I'm not sure about the 27" track corners now though. One the ground, the train performed fine, negotiating the corner easily, but when you are looking up at it and watching how sharp it has to turn, and how wide it has to swing, I am a little concerned. Also, when I put my Alaskan Diesel loco on there, it's swing out is so great that it hits the last mount before the corner. It's a longer train though. I'm thinking of getting a couple pieces of 42" curves and see how I like them. I would go bigger, but I don't think they make 72" curves in 027 gauge, and a shimmed up piece wouldn't look right.
All in all, I make some progress yesterday!
Sadly enough, my shelf layout still does not exist after several years. I haven't decided if it should be one particular scale or a combination of 2 or more...?
The forum link below, that I started several years ago, had some great suggestions. You may find it beneficial to look through some of them.
Building a Shelf Layout
I hope you get further along than I did.
Brad
One thing about trains: It doesn't matter where they’re going. What matters is deciding to get on.
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