I found this site just now, and it's pretty close to what I was wanting to do. It's much better of course, and made from oak. It's also $24 per foot for the straights, and more for the corners. And it's G scale. It answered a lot of the questions I had about mounting, so I'm going to incorperate them.
Wes
http://www.locoboose.com/trestle/skytrestle.htm
Good, because I already have a bunch of it. I should be able to get the shelf finished and the track mounted on it this weekend. I'll feel better about this once I get some part of the project completed.
Bob Nelson
Well I do like that single switching feature.
I have been giving serious consideration to ditching the O27 track and moving to all MTH track. It seems a lot louder, but I think it will look better and hold up better. Any thoughts?
It's expensive, but I don't have to build it all now.
I am going to have to try that when the time comes. Is the O31 you are refering to the highrail turnout? I didn't think that Lionel made a O31. I know MTH does.
I started working on my shelf last night. No pictures as all I did was cut it to length and width.
O31 turnouts don't do this; they have an internal switch that shuts off the coil after the points move. O27 turnouts do it all the time, whether they're wired together or not. I have never seen one wear out in a way that seemed to be related to this behavior.
I have often recommended another way of operating O27 turnouts in response to complaints about the buzzing that happens when you park a car on the turnout with voltage on the track. This will destroy the turnout. The trick is to operate the turnout with direct current, provided from a charged capacitor. You have to get the coil common disconnected from the center rails and bring it out of the turnout, connecting it to a grounded (to the outside rails) 5000-microfarad, 25-volt electrolytic capacitor charged from a DC supply through a 100-ohm, 10-watt resistor. The DC supply can be nothing more than a 1N4001 rectifier from an AC accessory terminal of a transformer with its common grounded.
The first time the turnout is thrown, the capacitor supplies the energy. Then, the other wheels that pass over the control rail keep the capacitor discharged. The current that flows is just the trickle that the resistor allows. When the train is gone, the capacitor recharges in a few seconds and is ready for the next time.
I understand that link I posted now, mainly because I got my first switch yesterday. All you have to do is wire the controls of the top and bottom switch on the left out of phase, as well as the top and bottom on the right out of phase. Just like the picture kinda shows. The train will throw the switchers in the right direction for you automatcially.
Train A traveling counter-clockwise starting at the top of the track (above section B) will enter the top left switch in the backward direction of the switcher, and the corner will be activated when the wheels enter near the Y, setting it in the straight position. At the same time, because you have a wire that connects to the straight side of that top left switcher to the divergent pin on the bottom left switcher, the BL (bottom left) switcher will be aligned for when the train goes around to the bottom of the track to pull into section C, and stop (because of the dead section in section C). Train B will be released a few seconds before as Train A passes section A.
Train B will leave clockwise out of section B, and since it hits it's first switcher backwards, will trip it in the diverged state. The wire connecting that top right (TR) switch will trip the bottom right (BR) switch into the straight position so train B will pass right by section C (where train A waits). As train B hits the bottom left (BL) switch backwards, it set the TL switcher into the divergent direction so train B can pull into section B and stop. Train A was released as train B passed section A. Lastly, train A pulls out of section C, hitting the BR switcher backwards, which will set the TR switcher in the straight position, allowing train A to pass by section B (where train B sits) in a counter-clockwise position headed to section A, where train B is realeased, and it all happens again! As long as your switchers fire, you will never collide.
Its a great design, but how much abuse can these switches take? I think each switcher gets energized at least twice per complete cycle, and more if each wheel makes a pulse as it completes a ground.
To prevent even more unnecessary ground pulses to a switcher, is there a way to have an entire train only send one pulse as it passes through a zone? It seams like since all of the trunks have solid axle wheels, each time the next wheel hits, the ground is going to be completed across the rails and it's going to energize the switch. You almost need to put rubber bands on all of the wheels on one side of a train, except for one. How do people get around this problem?
Thanks,Wes
Here is my picture, fixed up for me by Wes:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804137569714/32
Wes said: "...but that doesn't solve the problem that I still need a shelf as wide as that widest point, which is over 10". It does bring the to tracks together, but it has to go wide first. I don't think there is any way around that."
That's true; but that wide shelf needs to be only a few feet long; the bulk of the track can use a narrower shelf. I don't know what the room geography is; but you might be able to integrate the switch areas into two corners of a room. In that case, there is a different arrangement that you can use that will take up less space and avoid the S curve. I'll send it to you.
You lost me, but a picture will probably do it.
weswhitmore@yahoo.com
Thanks!
Wes, there's a way to have your cake and eat it too: Just curve the diverging track back toward the tangent track instead of keeping it 7.322 inches away. I can e-mail you a picture of this with the tracks only 3 inches apart on centers. The two O27 curves to do this are cut to a chord length (the distance as the crow flies between the ends of the center rail) of 7.35 inches. If you consider this recurved track to be part of the turnout and don't park a train in it, there will be no swing-out problem.
If you send me your e-mail address I can send you a picture of it.
That's not a problem at all. I'm sure someone will find your post useful.
So I went to the Train store at lunch to see what they had in way of switchings. They had a pair of 27" 027 switches. They were much cheaper than the 042 switches (They only had a single one). I took a left hand 27" switch and connected a straight to the existing strait piece, and a single 27" curve on the switched curve track to get two parallel track sections. It looks like I will need a 10.5" shelf to safely clear the wall. I might be able to bring it in a little smaller than that once I find out exactly how much swing out my train does. I'm sure the 042 would have worked with a much smaller shelf, but I didn't want to spend the extra $20 per switch, when I want 4 of them.
The 1 1/4 is just to the edge of the turnout's base. You'll need more clearance for the train. If you go with the transparent safety wall idea, you'll need that clearance on both sides of the double track. The clearance will have to include the extra room for the bodies to swing out at curves.
You can actually get away with about 6 inches total (5 1/2 without the transparent wall) in the bulk of the siding by curving the track back closer together between the switches. This way you would have a wide spot only at each end of the siding.
If you do use the transparent wall, consider mounting it on standoffs instead of directly to the shelf. That way the track centerline can come to within 1 inch of the shelf edge, for better visibility. Also there will be no hard-to-clean outer corner to catch dust.
You will probably see a reflection of the white ceiling in the plastic, obscuring the view of the trains. You could paint (or cover) the ceiling black near the track, or use something like a heavy-wire fence instead.
Lionelsoni,
So from what you are telling me, 5 1/2" centers + 1 1/4" to the edge, plus the same distance on the divergent track gives me a requirement of around 8" wide mounting board to get the whole assembly on a shelf? That sounds perfect. I'm going to go look at one today. Thanks for measuring for me. I would love to be able to put my switcher on a board no wider than 8 3/8" wide.
Thanks for everything,
That link I added is for two trains headed towards each other. They use 4 switchers, which gives you the track path to get around the other train. Here is the link, just scroll down to Figure 76.
http://www.thortrains.net/modelrr0.htm
I have tried to find room for a 2 track system. Behind the TV it gets pretty tight. I guess I could move the TV, (or get a flat panel!) and I would be set. I would have to buy double tunnels instead of the singles that I have, but that shouldn't be a problem. When I originally designed my first mount, I didn't plan on 2 tracks, but I do have a way to do it without tearing down what's already mounted. I just wanted to try to put some track switches in my plan, and I thought that I found a way.
If anyone has an 042 left switcher, would you please measure how wide of a board needs to be to mount it on there. I want to cut my shelf and I don't know how wide to do it until I get my switch. I will be putting in a piece of 042 curve so I can run a parallel line with the straight section.
So tonight I put a thin piece of 1/4" birch ply on my mounts to see what it would be like if I had a small shelf all the way around the room. I lost my visability of seeing under the train, but I think I like the look better when looking from a distance. I also tried it with what little MTH track I had. You can barely see the track, so I don't think I need to switch all of my track to MTH, although I think it's probably a better platform to work with over the long run. It's just so much more expensive. The ply isn't rounded or stained. It's just to get an idea if I like it or not.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135358805/27
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135366768/28
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135374559/29
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135381774/30
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135390762/31
Wes Whitmore wrote: Running in the same direction is easier, for sure. It's also cheaper, as you do not need any track switching! But, you also don't get and trains passing each other, which I kinda like. Of course, only one train is moving at a time, but it's a start. I don't like how slow this build is going! I need to decide what I want to do so I can get some train action going! Why don't I just settle for the premade shelving!The main thing slowing me down is finding the same quality birch plywood that I already have, and ran out of. The stuff at the local lowes is back to being junk. I guess I lucked out on the piece that I have. I am going to have to drive all the way to the east side of Columbus and get a sheet of the good stuff, I guess. I'm still deciding what wall I want to be a shelf, and what wall I want to use the mounts like I already have. I guess I'm indecisive.Wes
Running in the same direction is easier, for sure. It's also cheaper, as you do not need any track switching! But, you also don't get and trains passing each other, which I kinda like. Of course, only one train is moving at a time, but it's a start. I don't like how slow this build is going! I need to decide what I want to do so I can get some train action going! Why don't I just settle for the premade shelving!
The main thing slowing me down is finding the same quality birch plywood that I already have, and ran out of. The stuff at the local lowes is back to being junk. I guess I lucked out on the piece that I have. I am going to have to drive all the way to the east side of Columbus and get a sheet of the good stuff, I guess. I'm still deciding what wall I want to be a shelf, and what wall I want to use the mounts like I already have. I guess I'm indecisive.
Wes,Have you considered a two track system? You would eliminate a lot of questions, you could even add a double crossover to allow you to 'switch' tracks, our make them inter-looping by using a crossover (think a figure 8 where one side is inside the other).
lionelsoni wrote: Brent, note that I said "they both go in the same direction" in describing my scheme, which is what I use above my layout, with no sidings.Wes, you could put the approach block halfway around. In that case the faster train would have to be no more than twice as fast as the slower one. Mine is close to the stop block because I like the action of each train's stopping at the signal after the other starts up.
Brent, note that I said "they both go in the same direction" in describing my scheme, which is what I use above my layout, with no sidings.
Wes, you could put the approach block halfway around. In that case the faster train would have to be no more than twice as fast as the slower one. Mine is close to the stop block because I like the action of each train's stopping at the signal after the other starts up.
Well according to the link, He just wired apposing switches in reverse so when one throws one way, the other one throws for the other train, I guess.
That's what I'm talking about! That all makes sense. So if I move that approach block to halfway around the track, then I can get both trains going at the same time, right?
Train A sits in the stop block. Train B in in front of it, working around the loop. Halfway around the loop it hits the Approach bock, turning on Train A. As train B hits the stop block and waits. Train A hits the Apporach block and sends B on, and so on. I would think that any of these would be best to set your speeds of the trains as close together as possible, but your stop block idea should keep them from every hitting.
My MTH train does take a couple of seconds to take off though. The only problem I see is if the train just released from the stop block would reach the approach block before the train in front of it hit the stop block. You could probably put a second approach block right in front of the stop block for safety.
Thanks for your input. It is exactly what I needed
lionelsoni wrote: Here's a way to run two trains alternately around a loop, but without a siding, since they both go in the same direction:Create a "stop" block and an "approach" block just before the stop block, each long enough to hold a train. Let the center rail be continuous all around the room and through both the stop and approach blocks. However, isolate one outside rail in the approach block and both outside rails in the stop block. Connect all the isolated rails together.Here's how it works: A train sits in the stop block, not moving because the outside rails are not connected to anything. The other train travels around the room and then enters the approach block. Its wheels bridge the approach-block outside rails, grounding the stop-block outside rails and supplying voltage to the stopped train, which moves out of the stop block. The second train passes from the approach block to the stop block, where it stops, since there is no train following close behind it (yet).This scheme is best used with plastic couplers (or couplers that you have deliberately insulated with tape through the mated knuckles), so that current does not flow from truck to truck through the couplers as a train enters the stop block. This current can burn out the knuckle springs.A further refinement is a red-green signal at the end of the stop block. Wire the red lamp to the (non-isolated) outside rails, the green lamp to the center rail, and the common between them to the isolated outside rails.Here's how that works: When there is a train in the stop block but no train in the approach block, the train's motor is in parallel with the green lamp and in series with the red lamp, so the red lamp lights. When the other train enters the approach block, it shorts out the red lamp and puts full track voltage on the green lamp, at the same time that the stopped train starts up. When the second train is fully within the stop block, the light goes back to red just as that train stops.
Here's a way to run two trains alternately around a loop, but without a siding, since they both go in the same direction:
Create a "stop" block and an "approach" block just before the stop block, each long enough to hold a train. Let the center rail be continuous all around the room and through both the stop and approach blocks. However, isolate one outside rail in the approach block and both outside rails in the stop block. Connect all the isolated rails together.
Here's how it works: A train sits in the stop block, not moving because the outside rails are not connected to anything. The other train travels around the room and then enters the approach block. Its wheels bridge the approach-block outside rails, grounding the stop-block outside rails and supplying voltage to the stopped train, which moves out of the stop block. The second train passes from the approach block to the stop block, where it stops, since there is no train following close behind it (yet).
This scheme is best used with plastic couplers (or couplers that you have deliberately insulated with tape through the mated knuckles), so that current does not flow from truck to truck through the couplers as a train enters the stop block. This current can burn out the knuckle springs.
A further refinement is a red-green signal at the end of the stop block. Wire the red lamp to the (non-isolated) outside rails, the green lamp to the center rail, and the common between them to the isolated outside rails.
Here's how that works: When there is a train in the stop block but no train in the approach block, the train's motor is in parallel with the green lamp and in series with the red lamp, so the red lamp lights. When the other train enters the approach block, it shorts out the red lamp and puts full track voltage on the green lamp, at the same time that the stopped train starts up. When the second train is fully within the stop block, the light goes back to red just as that train stops.
I think it's going to be hard to paint. It's powdercoated white, and I don't know if I can just get a can of rustoleum and paint over it or not. I might have to sand it down first.
So I could use some help on where these switches in the link are getting their power, and what is tripping them? I think I have the rest figured out (the grounding blocks). What trips these switches?
So i was reading another post here, and it raised a question for me. Where can I find some good schematics on creating automatic train operations based off of train location? I found this:
http://www.thortrains.net/liolayb.gif
I want something close to this. I would like to run two trains on one track in opposite directions (at each other). I would like to hold a train in a roundout loop until the oncoming train passes by. That way I would have two trains going around the room at the same time. I could put one of these loops on each end of the oval so I have continuous train action. The 4 switches would need to be automatially thrown as well. It's starting to trickle through the layers of my head as I think about it. This stuff is great.
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