"I know you!!!!!! Yes we did meet. Enjoyed that conversation. Check out the progress on my layout ["Stop the Chief..." thread]. On membership, Miss Edna has forms and she, Jerry [guy with beard], Terry [tall guy with YANKEE accent], Steve [repair guy] and I will sign for you. If I'm not there, tell Miss Edna I sent you to get form. Glad you started posting [even though you are a lawyer."
I enjoyed our conversation as well. The switches the guys were repairing that day are doing yeoman service on the new layout, as is my father's old Type R Trainmaster, which is happily powering my inner line of traditional track. The Fastrack portion has a Williams transformer.
I look forward to seeing you and the other guys at Todd's again soon. I will be happier that day because, I admit, I was suffering from a massive and very uncharacteristic hangover.
RaleighTrainFan wrote: . . .I look forward to seeing you and the other guys at Todd's again soon. I will be happier that day because, I admit, I was suffering from a massive and very uncharacteristic hangover.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!
Mr. Engineer, get your hand off the bottle and back on the throttle!
I'm here all week. Try the veal!
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Frank53 wrote: I must be missing something. I get the part about high line collector quality - as LS pointed out - mint, un run or near mint, just like it came from the factory 50 or so years ago with everything original intact. The sky might very well be the limit, but the limit is what someone will pay.To call everything not at that level junk appears to be an elitist point of view. Personally, I've seen some junk I wouldn't go near, rust, missing parts, chips, dents, and so on.But somewhere in between is the "very good" and little better than "very good" but not quite "excellent" or "like new". I want that stuff. I want to run it on my layout. I want it to be authentic, and if it has some rub here or there, I do not care. I can pick that stuff up for reasonable prices and those prices are falling because there is a lot of it.I doubt the day will come when I will give a second look at high end collector quality post war Lionel, because, I have no reason to. Why would I spend $2-3000 on a 746 mint in box that I am going to take out of the box and run on my layout? I can probably spend about $800-1000 on one that approaches excellent and run that one without giving a second thought to reducing the value of my investment. And even if I do reduce the value of my investment in a near excellent 746, perhaps without boxes, it doesn't matter to me. I am going to run these trains until the day I die. When that day comes, all of my original trains that my Dad bought in teh 40's and 50's will be passed on to my hiers to keep that stuff in my Dad's family and the rest will probably be sent off to ebay - or whatever it might be called in the hopefully distant future.
I must be missing something. I get the part about high line collector quality - as LS pointed out - mint, un run or near mint, just like it came from the factory 50 or so years ago with everything original intact. The sky might very well be the limit, but the limit is what someone will pay.
To call everything not at that level junk appears to be an elitist point of view. Personally, I've seen some junk I wouldn't go near, rust, missing parts, chips, dents, and so on.
But somewhere in between is the "very good" and little better than "very good" but not quite "excellent" or "like new". I want that stuff. I want to run it on my layout. I want it to be authentic, and if it has some rub here or there, I do not care. I can pick that stuff up for reasonable prices and those prices are falling because there is a lot of it.
I doubt the day will come when I will give a second look at high end collector quality post war Lionel, because, I have no reason to. Why would I spend $2-3000 on a 746 mint in box that I am going to take out of the box and run on my layout? I can probably spend about $800-1000 on one that approaches excellent and run that one without giving a second thought to reducing the value of my investment. And even if I do reduce the value of my investment in a near excellent 746, perhaps without boxes, it doesn't matter to me. I am going to run these trains until the day I die. When that day comes, all of my original trains that my Dad bought in teh 40's and 50's will be passed on to my hiers to keep that stuff in my Dad's family and the rest will probably be sent off to ebay - or whatever it might be called in the hopefully distant future.
Holy Smokes! Hell has frozen over!!! I actually AGREE with Frank on this one.
Not sure I'd call it "elitist", but I sure agree that calling everything else that doesn't qualify as "new in box with all the accessories" JUNK, is pretty unrealistic. I have also seen stuff Frank describes that I wouldn't touch. Everyone seems to have their "minimum" level as far as quality of the postwar stuff they will accept. I'd like to get stuff a bit higher than Frank wants because I don't have the skills Frank has at making things look and work nice again. I guess I am after the stuff that Greenberg and other raters rate very good++ - to excellent. I am also an "operator". ALL my train stuff is going to be RUN. That's why they have those little metal rollers under the electric trains. It's to make them GO. Life is too short to have something laying around collecting dust. I'm gonna enjoy it while I can
I still wonder about the price this thing sold for. What if it sold for $476???...which is around what I MIGHT have paid for it if I could snipe it at the last minute. It stayed at that level for a VERY long time before the last minute vulturing and rapid rise in price. I am STILL NOT CONVINCED that a collector bought this loco.And I would STILL not be shocked if a loco of EQUAL condition with all the same accessories went for a LOT LESS after Christmas.
Chief: I picked the wrong fish...I should have said MUSKIE!!! I got pics of me landing a few of them and they are about as finicky as it gets for taking lures.
Dep
Virginian Railroad
I do certainly respect the collectors who pay high prices for really nice trains.
I'm a lot like Frank, though. I hate to buy new-in-box trains, knowing that I'm going to have to run them and risk messing something up.
I'll guarantee, too, that I'm just as thrilled with the 681 I currently have running around the tree as any of you all are with your 681s. I paid $125 for mine, because the shop had written it off to be parted out and I talked them into letting me buy it. I brought it home and meticulously took it apart down to the frame. It now runs great, and looks great(the shop owner thought I had repainted it when I took it back in). I have about $150 invested in it, plus whole lot of time and love. For that reason, it's worth more to me than a new-in-box one would be.
Over the summer, I bought a new-in-box camera lens from 1979 with the intention of using it. The price I paid wasn't particularly high, as there aren't many camera collectors collecting recent vintage equipment like that. I was quite disappointed when I received the lens because lack of use had made the focusing ring too stiff to really be used well. Since I've used it so little, I plan to turn back around and sell it, hopefully for about what I paid for it, and buy the same lens in well-used condition. I've had my fill of buying old things new in the box.
Here are a couple of auctions of interest. These are prewar Standard Gauge boxes, but the point remains valid:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Lionel-standard-gauge-408E-brown-81-box-only_W0QQitemZ140064472392QQihZ004QQcategoryZ19150QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-SET-LIONEL-396E-BLUE-COMET-BOXES-390E-390T-420-421_W0QQitemZ280059945825QQihZ018QQcategoryZ19150QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Not all boxes sell for this much, of course, but some go for more. These are in decent but not spectaular shape (though super for prewar boxes!) and belong with top of the line trains. These boxes will add MORE than their final sale price to the value of the trains they get paired with.
And this little gem supports my worry about paying big $$$ for boxes. At least the seller is nice enough to be honest about it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Beautiful-Lionel-2341-Jersey-Central-FM-Unit-repro-box_W0QQitemZ200059751877QQihZ010QQcategoryZ4146QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Nope...I ain't gonna go for the bait this time. Even a largemouth bass learns after being hooked too many times by an obvious lure Dep
Have you attempted to email the winning bidder and tell him how foolish you think he is? Or do you prefer on whining and ranting to everyone else on the internet?
And really, nobody cares if you agree with Frank for once.
Deputy wrote: And this little gem supports my worry about paying big $$$ for boxes. At least the seller is nice enough to be honest about it.
Please note this line:
"If you want a JC FM 2341, you won't touch the real thing in this condition for under $1500, and likely it will be A LOT more."
That line nicely illustrates the difference in value between a restoration + repop and an origianl LN + excellent box.
I care if Frank & Dep agree!! It's earth shattering!
I made my point before and I'll state it again. Only the collctors and speculators are worrying about the boxes. 3rail, you want 'em you buy 'em. My trains are for my enjoyment. Collectors and speculators are ruining (YES RUINING) my hobbies. Drive the prices up. Save my hobby for me. People like this have just about thaken my passion for cars and driven me out of it. I can't even get a junker for less than a mint. Same thing in this hobby. I am sick and tired about pristine this and that with boxes. You want to open a musuem with your boxes in the display, you go right ahead. Bad mouthing people who think differntly is low class. Stone me if you will, but stop saving my hobby. If "stupid" people want to pay "stupid" prices that's their business. It affects us all and that is the point you are missing. You wanna make a buck, that's your business. I'm not going to pay you or anyone else for the priveledge of a pristine item "with box". I'll find a bargain or two, fix what's needed and run the crap out of it. That's what it is all about, my (and others) enjoyment of this hobby, not profiting from it (exhorbitantly).
Merry Christmas
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
3railguy wrote: Nope...I ain't gonna go for the bait this time. Even a largemouth bass learns after being hooked too many times by an obvious lure DepHave you attempted to email the winning bidder and tell him how foolish you think he is? Or do you prefer on whining and ranting to everyone else on the internet?And really, nobody cares if you agree with Frank for once.
Nope...not even a nibble on the hook. Sorry
....If it'll make you feel better, I'll e-mail the SOB and tell him he's an extortionist, only if it'll make you feel better.
And here I thought we were having an intellegent exchange of ideas in an adult fashion.
Silly me
(dang...I think I just hooked)
Anj: Shake that bait off...it's not worth biting!!
Okay...here's another S2 that I was just watching and bidding on. At the VERY LAST MINUTE it hit $213.60. Why didn't I bid higher and take it? Well for one thing there aren't enough pics. Nothing of the underneath and right side. That, along with the buyer only rates it as "Good" condition. I suspect there is more wrong with it than a funky tender shell (easily replaced, I have 2 on order right now) and lose wires (also an easy fix) and a bad e-unit. I bid up to $176.99 because that's all I would risk on this. It was sniped at the last few seconds for $213.60. Did the buyer get a good deal? Maybe. I hope so. I paid that same amount for each of my S2 postwars (671 and 681) and they are both running around the Christmas tree right now without doing ANYTHING to them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320061607458&rd=1&rd=1
Sorry, but trends over the last 15 years have consistently shown that prices on solid operator-quality pieces have fallen. I attribute it to the bulk of new products that actually work well, as compared to the MPC and early LTI junk that in most cases was worse than the post war trains they emulated.
15 years ago, I couldn't have gotten even a junker 681 for the $125 I paid. 15 years ago, I couldn't have two milk cars for $18.
Collectors don't want common pieces, like the two I mentioned, in runner condition.
If anything, the high-end collectors are helping to make the lower end market affordable to us mere mortals.
Now off to have fun running my 681 around the tree...I may swap it out for a 675 later today, or maybe even the 2023 Erie Alcos that I haven't run since last Christmas. Decisions, decisions.
Now here's another S2 in "Excellent" condition. But it's one of those "live auction" things. Never got involved with them. You gotta kick in an extra 15% of whatever you pay for it to the bidder. Plus no PayPal or charge card, so you better be VERY sure about getting involved with something like this. I'm still gonna wait for the "buyer's remorse specials" to show up.
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=290063696631&rd=1,1
Ben: So you are saying that if I find a Greenberg price guide from 15 years ago, the prices For S2 turbines (2020, 671, 671RR, 681, 682) will be MORE than those listed in the 2007 edition? That IS interesting. Anyone own a Greenberg price guide from 15 years ago? I'd sure like to verify this information. I mean heck, I'll just wait until the prices drop down to $50 and then buy up every S2 turbine I can get my hands on. I just hope they aren't dropping at the rate of a dollar a year. I ain't got that many years left
Wow, I'm taking the bait again, too.
As we've mentioned before, Greenburg's books are only a guide and not gospel.
There tend to be a lot of people who want really nice pieces, and there aren't so many nice pieces available. This tends to make the price higher than the guides, which top out at "excellent" and don't include prices for "mint." As the saying goes, an item is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
By contrast, most of the people buying common items in runner quality condition, are looking for a bargain. There are a lot more of these pieces available, too, than there are the high end mint or near mint pieces. Thus, the prices tend to be lower than Greenburg's guides, and always have.
Well someone needs to write a 5th Gospel. Because the ones that are out there sound like they are only good for kindling on a fire, if I am to believe what is posted here. I can accept that Greenberg is not dead accurate for collector item stuff. That market seems to be more based on "whatever the buyer will pay" or "money is no object".
But to dismiss Greenberg for valuing runners...I find that hard to believe. They aren't nitwits writing those books. The prices I have paid for postwar turbines have been VERY close to what Greenberg recommends. And the ones I've seen for sale on E-Bay and train shops have followed it pretty well. As to a lot more "runner condition" pieces being available...they sure have dried up on E-Bay and online for that matter. Man...I can't wait for the after-Christmas remorse to kick in!!!! I don't want to wax political, but with the new regime taking control in 2007...well...perhaps whatever changes they make will have a positive effect on me buying a nice, excellent condtion 682 at Greenberg's price. Hehehe...that sounds like I'm looking forward to bad times ahead
Dep...winds in the line on his Abu Garcia preparing for another cast
Sorry, but Turbines aren't the end all and be all of the train market either.
They may follow the guide prices pretty closely, true. Take a look at a good majority of the several thousand other items in the book, though, and you'll find this is not the case.
The guides are based on prices a few select Greenburg's meets, most of which take place in the Northeastern part of the country. Local market variations tend to result in lower prices on common items in most of the country.
They're okay to give you a ballpark estimate, but, as I said, they're not gospel.
I'll agree with Ben on this one. Runners are dropping in price and the collector pieces are through the roof. OK, I bought a 681 10 years ago. I thought I was getting a verygood deal at $180. I would have rated it VG. I just looked up the price in my 2005 edition Greenbergs. G= $110 E = $260. So my 681 today would probably sell for about the same as what I paid 10 years ago. To me, that means pricecs are down in comparison to where they were 10 years ago. Now if I had bought one in excellent or better condition back then, around the $250 range, I would probably be able to sell it for more than the 260 in Greenbergs guide. The primo pieces are commanding higher prices, runners are lessening in value.
Its happening with all collectables. Its a good thing. Good for collectors, good for operators.
Deputy wrote: But to dismiss Greenberg . . . . They aren't nitwits writing those books. . . . .
But to dismiss Greenberg . . . . They aren't nitwits writing those books. . . . .
I really hate to dispute this (no I don't), but didn't Allen Miller used to write Grrenberg books?
Checked my 2007 Greenberg and a 681 in excellent is listed for $200. The "good condition" has actually increased to $120. Hey...I am man enough to admit I'm wrong. I just wish the buyers/sellers on E-Bay and other sources would come to their senses. Probably an impossibioity this time of year. Oh well...I'm STILL gonna wait them out.
Dep...sprinkles crow meat on his 16 inch pizza...mmmmmm CROW!!!
Please check the post by lionelflyer in this thread!!!!
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/4/980863/ShowPost.aspx#980863
I had already wondered about this as far as buying a 681 and doing the conversion. Scary stuff!!!!
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
The great thing about the post war train market is that there is something available for everyone's budget. A healthy dose of patience and some knowledge of what something usually sells for will keep you in good stead when it comes time to make a purchase.
As for boxes - here's a true story. I bought a pristine post war Lionel hopper car on eBay a year or two ago. It was to complete a set. Came with an equally pristine box for a great price. I left both on our dining room table, "safe" from little hands. I came down the next morning to discover the box in several torn pieces all over the dining room floor. Seems my son, John had a devil on his shoulder that morning.
He healed up nicely with no visible scarring.
Jim
Bob Keller
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