Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
What amazes me is people ASSUMING that this 682 was bought by a COLLECTOR!!! We DON'T KNOW if this loco/tender actually WENT to a collector. At this time of year, it could have just as easily gone to some rich SOB with money to burn. Oops...that almost describes me . But even I am not FOOLISH with my spending. If it DID go to a rich SOB, I doubt very much he gave two squirts if it came in the original Lionel box, a reproduction Lionel box, or a dang shoebox. Let's not just ASSUME that because the 682 is relatively uncommon (no way I would classify it "rare"), that it was bought by a collector.I'm with Eric, only thing the boxes are to me is handy if I want to pack stuff up. What many DON'T seem to realize is that ALL 682s are going for BIG $$$ on E-Bay...collector condition or not. I have no idea why. Maybe people are enthralled with that tiny little lubricating linkage gizmo...I dunno. But as far as I'm concerned, the price IN GREENBERG is what they should be selling for.
lionroar88: Doesn't surprise me about this guys tender price. It's pretty obvious he is a savvy seller that realizes he can hose people down this time of year. Pristine condition or not, this stuff simply ISN'T worth these premium prices.
As far as what the 681 is made out of, no it isn't cast iron (although it sure FEELS like it!). But these prices seem to indicate thay are made out of GOLD....and that just ain't so.
Dep
Virginian Railroad
Deputy wrote: I'm with Eric, only thing the boxes are to me is handy if I want to pack stuff up. What many DON'T seem to realize is that ALL 682s are going for BIG $$$ on E-Bay...collector condition or not. I have no idea why. Maybe people are enthralled with that tiny little lubricating linkage gizmo...I dunno. But as far as I'm concerned, the price IN GREENBERG is what they should be selling for.Dep
Good grief. There are 14 bids in the auction which drove the price up to over $800. What was the seller supposed to do? End the auction when the bids reached Greenburgs? LMAO. What was the reserve"? What was the opening bid? Where is this $200 tender? Is $200 the opening bid by the seller? Or is $200 what the bidders drove the price up to.
You seem to think Greenburg should dictate what dealers want. That isn't the case. Greenburg is a report of what people are paying for the stuff.
And so what if bidders drive prices through the stratoshere during the holiday season? It's their money and like you, they can spend it however they danged well please. I know if someone ridiculed your values you would be blowing your ego all over this forum as you are now with this poor chap.
As I said in my earlier post, people willingly pay $800 for a Lionel or MTH scale steam engine and that's OK because it has lots of detail, sounds, command control, etc. A collector sees little value in that. He see's $20 worth of digital chips. He sees value in a 60 year old piece preserved in great condition. You don't seem to want to understand that.
3railguy wrote: Deputy wrote: I'm with Eric, only thing the boxes are to me is handy if I want to pack stuff up. What many DON'T seem to realize is that ALL 682s are going for BIG $$$ on E-Bay...collector condition or not. I have no idea why. Maybe people are enthralled with that tiny little lubricating linkage gizmo...I dunno. But as far as I'm concerned, the price IN GREENBERG is what they should be selling for.DepGood grief. There are 14 bids in the auction which drove the price up to over $800. What was the seller supposed to do? End the auction when the bids reached Greenburgs? LMAO. What was the reserve"? What was the opening bid? Where is this $200 tender? Is $200 the opening bid by the seller? Or is $200 what the bidders drove the price up to.You seem to think Greenburg should dictate what dealers want. That isn't the case. Greenburg is a report of what people are paying for the stuff.And so what if bidders drive prices through the stratoshere during the holiday season? It's their money and like you, they can spend it however they danged well please. I know if someone ridiculed your values you would be blowing your ego all over this forum as you are now with this poor chap. As I said in my earlier post, people willingly pay $800 for a Lionel or MTH scale steam engine and that's OK because it has lots of detail, sounds, command control, etc. A collector sees little value in that. He see's $20 worth of digital chips. He sees value in a 60 year old piece preserved in great condition. You don't seem to want to understand that.
Well now the buyer has changed like a chameleon. First he was a "collector" and now he is a mere "bidder". Nice sidestep
And I like the way you artfully switch sides to our way of thinking. I was not complaining that the seller got hosed. That's HIS problem. My original comment was "So much for Greenberg's Price Guide". Meaning either the price guide is way off, or people have lost their minds and are paying WAY OVER the value of the item. I prefer to believe the latter.The whole point of E-Bay is to get the maximum amount you can for your item. We all know that. I was simply stating that the prices are WHACKO right now...which they certainly ARE. As for the tender, you'll have to talk to lionroar88. I'm sure he didn't pull that amount out of thin air. Oh geez...now your last paragraph and you are back at assuming everyone buying on E-Bay are COLLECTORS. They AREN'T. You have NO WAY of knowing if the guy that got hosed with this 682 was Mickey the Mope buying for his spoiled kid, or Neil Young padding his collection.
Dep P.S. The title of my thread was aimed at comments that were posteed on the forum that postwar Lionel was generally going for dirt cheap. I suppose to some folks $800 IS dirt cheap.
Excuse me but when a collector places a bid, he becomes a bidder. OK, so maybe he's not a collector. The point is, someone wanted the turbine enough to pay $840. Sure he only has 14 wins and could be a shill but the bidder before him at over $700 seems legit as he has a ton of winnings.
I understood your point at the beginning of the thread. However, you and a few others have done nothing but ridicule and protest people's values throughout the entire thread.
OK so Greenburg says it's worth $400. If I wanted it bad enough to pay $800, I'm going to pay it despite what Greenburg says. You guys can whine all you want.
If you read in the Greenburg's price guides, there's a little notation something to the effect that prices assume no box is included.
As I said, collectors pay a huge premium for rare boxes in solid. clean condition. That's why the price is $400 over Greenburg's guides.
And, yes, there are plenty of runner quality postwar pieces out there for not much money. Just a couple of weeks ago, I got a pair of milk cars for $18 for both. I could have gotten more at the same price easily. The same person had common non-operating cars for $5 a pop.
Prices have never come down on premium pieces and premium condition.
3railguy wrote: Excuse me but when a collector places a bid, he becomes a bidder. OK, so maybe he's not a collector. The point is, someone wanted the turbine enough to pay $840. Sure he only has 14 wins and could be a shill but the bidder before him at over $700 seems legit as he has a ton of winnings.I understood your point at the beginning of the thread. However, you and a few others have done nothing but ridicule and protest people's values throughout the entire thread. OK so Greenburg says it's worth $400. If I wanted it bad enough to pay $800, I'm going to pay it despite what Greenburg says. You guys can whine all you want.
Well now I AM lost. I see NO relation between number of winning bids, and the person's status as a collector or OPERATOR. When people pay ridiculous prices for items...as in double or triple what they are worth, I think they leave themselves open for at lease SOME criticism. But hey....you know the saying
"There's a sucker born every minute"
And that will be proven when many of us buy the 682 in the same condition as this one for half or less than what this guy paid.
I'm just glad most of realize that the price paid was ridiculous and aren't stoopid enough to get involved in making the seller wealthy
Deputy wrote:"There's a sucker born every minute"
So sad, yet so true.
Dep,
You're doing nothing but showing your ignorance, as you've done many times.
Premium engine and premium box means lots of money. What do you not understand about that?
And, what right do have to criticise what someone pays for something?
Crucify me if you wish, but I am related to another hoby that is doing the same thing. Collectors/speculators/bidders, whatever, are stealing the hobby. I have no qualms with turning an honest buck, but I feel that this and other hobbies are being hi-jacked. The "collector" will usually hoard these things, satisfiying only himself, while those who enjoy the hobby will share it with others. There will always be exceptions, but be it car or train, e-bay, barret-jackson, et al, have just about driven the casual hobbiest out. I am part of the baby boomer gen (not happy about that, but) and I have seen those with disposible income, push the envelope of sanity. Profiteering has hurt most of us and profited few. I have no qualms about someone liqudating their wares due to age, lack of funds & interest. The "boom" will have benefited them, and it's their gain.
I have seen vehicles 10 years ago classified as junk destroyed. Now even they command rediculous prices. I've about given up on the car hobby, because, for the most part, it has been hijacked by the people that make more money than I can imagine and spend in on crap. It has happened to the motorcycle community (thanks to OCC). Cane you buy a nice Harley for cheap? Not any more!!
These hobbies should be for the hobbiest, not the specualtor. Good on them, just leave me my hobby as affordable for the hobbiest. And no, I'm not selling my 1948 S-2 for a profit. If I could get what I paid for it (without those damn boxes), I'd be satified
And I think that is what the point is!
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
ben10ben wrote: Dep,You're doing nothing but showing your ignorance, as you've done many times.Premium engine and premium box means lots of money. What do you not understand about that?And, what right do have to criticise what someone pays for something?
Ben:It only means "lots of money" to those who PAY lots of money for them. Again...you are assuming that everyone who buys a 682 is immediately a collector. THEY ARE NOT. All I want is a minty-to-excellent 682 at a reasonable (read Greenberg) price. It will then be RUN on my layout as often as I can. I am NOT going to store it in some airtight vault and couldn't care less if it's in a shoebox.
Something else occurs to me. More and more I think the person who bought this was NOT a collector. A collector would know enough that the price was exorbitant and would NOT pay that amount. I'm sorry, but 682 turbines in excellent-to-mint, boxes or no boxes, are NOT valued anywhere near that high. I have also been looking around on E-Bay and I see that BOXES are for sale for a LOT LESS than $490. Again....I couldn't care less what someone pays for something. That's THEIR problem, not mine.And take that dang halo off your head. I don't even want to hear that you never laughed at or criticized someone who obviously got reamed out for something.
Well said Anj! I am in the same babyboomer boat as you. All my buddies HATE the Barret-Jackson show and refuse to even watch it. What it has done to hot rodders is just pitiful. Ditto for OCC. Most of the bikes they make end up on display and never ridden. Jesse James is the only guy I know that actually rides his choppers. And he's one hardcore dood.
People are gonna pay nutball prices for E-Bay stuff for all kinds of reasons...especially at this time of year. We can just sit back and wait it out. Then get an IDENTICAL item in IDENTICAL condition for what it is really worth when buyer's remorse kicks in in January and February. I wouldn't be surprised if 682 turbines in excellent condition don't start popping up all over E-Bay as well as train stores. A WISE consumer waits to get the right price on an item. What we are seeing on E-Bay is idiocy at it's highest level. For me...I'll sit back and laugh.
I dont see what the hub-bub is about. The piece in question is a true rarity in its condition and desirability(is that a word?). I could see that same engine bring twice that much if you had the right bunch of collectors looking at it. The skys the limit on stuff like that.
There was just an item on e-bay recently, it was original boxes to an old Ives set I believe. I think the winning bid was $3000+. Probably not another set of boxes like it anywhere.
If thats your thing, and you have the money, what the heck.
Heres a good one in comparison. Go figure
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-GERMAN-LEHMANN-ADAM-PORTER-W-BOX-WIND-UP-MINT_W0QQitemZ180060726822QQihZ008QQcategoryZ74986QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Sorry, try this.
Paul: I have to respectfully disagree. The item link you posted is probably worth what the asking price is. Heck, 1906, I doubt there are many of them left in the WORLD!!! Just guessing, of course, I plead complete ignorance to those items . But the 682 is NOWHERE NEAR the rarity level of the item you posted. Heck...I don't think the term/description "rare" even applies to this loco. They are appearing regularly on E-Bay, and many of them are in the SAME condition as the one that sold for $800. Only they are selling for 1/2 that price. I know, because I've been tracking just about all of them. It seems like the closer we get to Christmas, the nuttier (is that a word?) the prices are getting. I would say the bids on this 682 were "in the ballpark" right up to December 14th...when it was at $476. After that...they simply went insane...
plip( 1476) US $840.00 Dec-14-06 18:14:52 PST viastandard( 14) US $830.00 Dec-14-06 18:14:56 PST woodweasle( 760) US $725.25 Dec-14-06 18:14:55 PST woodweasle( 760) US $699.99 Dec-14-06 17:03:05 PST initagain( 132) US $575.00 Dec-14-06 18:14:45 PSTsandmantrains( 165) US $476.00 Dec-14-06 16:29:45 PST
Boxes aside, it comes down to those 3 most important issues.....
condition, condition, and condition.
Collectors want the absolute pristine examples. And the price guides don't really cover those rarely seen examples. Guys like me who run their older trains don't mind a few nicks and scratches.
The average condition stuff is going much cheaper these days. I've sold off half a dozen PW engines in the past year, some of them fairly nice, and I'm lucky to get my original purchase price. Oh well, that's the collecting game. Luckily I had a fair amount of trains I had bought from estates, or other non-collectors which did get a fair profit. Which I then used to purchase my new interest, prewar tinplate.
tjsprague wrote: Boxes aside, it comes down to those 3 most important issues.....condition, condition, and condition. Collectors want the absolute pristine examples. And the price guides don't really cover those rarely seen examples. Guys like me who run their older trains don't mind a few nicks and scratches. The average condition stuff is going much cheaper these days. I've sold off half a dozen PW engines in the past year, some of them fairly nice, and I'm lucky to get my original purchase price. Oh well, that's the collecting game. Luckily I had a fair amount of trains I had bought from estates, or other non-collectors which did get a fair profit. Which I then used to purchase my new interest, prewar tinplate.
tj: No argument about condition. It's 100% true. But it's NOT JUST COLLECTORS that want mint-to-excellent condition items. I am like you...a runner (or "operator"). But I ALSO want a very nice loco. I don't mind doing minimal fixes to something, like replacing a tender shell or a small spring. And chipped paint isn't a big worry, as long as it doesn't look like it went through a rock polisher. If I have the choice between a dirt cheap 682, and one that is excellent, I'm sure gonna try for the excellent. And if I can't win it, then I MAY consider the dirt cheap one, IF it is within my abilities to restore to excellent. For sure if the excellent 682 is jumping in price like this one did, I am just gonna sit back and shake my head and .
tjsprague wrote: Boxes aside, it comes down to those 3 most important issues.....
But you cannot put boxes aside. In this case, they represent a substantial fraction of the value of the lot.
A collector would know that; he would also know that he did not get "hosed" but got a fair deal. Anyone who thinks he got hosed knows nothing about the collector market. Whether or not the bidder would call himself a collector, he did OK in the collector market.
This engine has value that a new-all-the-bells-and-whistles model will never have to someone who appreciates postwar Lionel. It doesn't have that value for me, but post war isn't my gig. Nevertheless, I refuse to disdain anyone who does appreciate it; rather, I congratulate him on his horse trading. Those who insist on demeaning this bidder apparently do so simply to inflate their own egos, to demonstrate their "superior" judgment, but in the end simply seem silly.
palallin wrote: But you cannot put boxes aside.
But you cannot put boxes aside.
For $490...just WATCH ME!!!!
Deputy wrote: palallin wrote: But you cannot put boxes aside. For $490...just WATCH ME!!!! Dep
You aint alone neither.
Deputy wrote: Well said Anj! I am in the same babyboomer boat as you. All my buddies HATE the Barret-Jackson show and refuse to even watch it. What it has done to hot rodders is just pitiful. Ditto for OCC. Most of the bikes they make end up on display and never ridden. Jesse James is the only guy I know that actually rides his choppers. And he's one hardcore dood. People are gonna pay nutball prices for E-Bay stuff for all kinds of reasons...especially at this time of year. We can just sit back and wait it out. Then get an IDENTICAL item in IDENTICAL condition for what it is really worth when buyer's remorse kicks in in January and February. I wouldn't be surprised if 682 turbines in excellent condition don't start popping up all over E-Bay as well as train stores. A WISE consumer waits to get the right price on an item. What we are seeing on E-Bay is idiocy at it's highest level. For me...I'll sit back and laugh. Dep
I am in agreement with you. Wait out the holidays, be patient, and don't pay more than you are truely willing to spend on an item. Warren Buffett said once that if you are not willing to pay double for something you are considering buying, then the purchase isn't worth it. His goal being to double his investment, but basically, it means to me that regardless of the asking price or market value, you have to assign what you believe the value is. That is why something is only worth what people will pay for it. It was worth it to the buyer of the 682 to 'overpay' based on my valuation, but not his/hers.
Auctions are fickle and people tend to get caught up in the frenzy of it and end up overpaying. When you see someone else wanting what you want, you want it more and will fight for it. I do not get into bidding wars. Like a lot of guys here, I like to run my trains, I don't mind some use. What I object to and avoid are people who think that just because there is a market for this stuff that they post JUNK, and then set ridiculous reserves or starting bids for their 'rare' items.
As for the car market, that's my other passion, but without money to just throw on the fire, buying or even restoring a decent car is cost prohibitive unless you can do a lot of the work yourself. I'm gonna find out the hard way just how much fixing an old car will cost me when mine goes to the shop tomorrow (I can't do the work myself)...luckily, so far I have a car that the market hasn't really discovered and prices haven't gotten out of hand yet.
VERY WELL SAID JAKE!!!! You put it into words much better than I can. Thank you!
Eric: E-Bay is a tricky place to deal with and you CAN get some great buys there. You can also get burned very badly. There are certain procedures you need to do (as Jake described) and ways to safeguard making payments. Personally, I don't buy from anyone who only takes checks or money orders. Once they are cashed, POOF....that money is gone and there is no way to recoup it. E-Bay only covers up to $200 for those kinds of deals. If you use a Credit Card, it gets safer because if the seller doesn't ship, or what he ships doesn't match what he described, you can get hold of your credit card company and get the charge removed. Of course, if you buy something and get it and it's not what was described and you ask for a credit from the charge card company, you have to return the item too.
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
I apologize in advance for this long rant...
Sellers usually want the highest price they can get for their merchandise, and usually buyers want to pay the lowest price they can. I'm all for it. I don't have any qualms with the seller of the 682, I don't think anyone is questioning his integrity or anything like that (although I can personally question some sellers based on my experience). I think the point people are making here is that some prices are out of line with their personal experience/expectations or what they consider reasonable.
This one particular sale shouldn't be used as a barometer for the whole market either. There are always outliers either way. No one has posted yet getting a mint never run 2332 GG1 for say $100 bucks. That one sale (if it even exists - hey I can dream) wouldn't be a gauge for the direction of the market either.
As I said in my earlier posts, and it's cliche but true: something is only worth what someone is willing to pay. That goes for trains, cars houses, etc. People have their own motivations for wanting to purchase. That motivation partially drives what they'll pay. If I covet GG-1's (I do...), I may pay more for one I consider in top condition. In the end the buyer of that 682 believed they were paying a fair price for the advertised condition of the train. For them it was a fair deal. I'm in.
You know the stock market works the same way. In order for you to make money in the market someone has to be willing and able to pay more for the stock than you paid for it. The beauty of capitalistic economics
PS If anyone has that minty 2332 GG-1 for 100bucks lemme know!!
Oh, one more thing, if the price is too high - don't buy.
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