TCA Eastern Division Lays Down The Law

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the kind comment, Frank!

I'll abide by Bob's wishes and refrain from adding further to this thread. He's correct in asserting that just about every point of view has already been represented here, and there's probably not a whole lot more that could be added without folks getting a bit "personal" about the views expressed by others.

We'll all just have to see how this all shakes out in the coming weeks and months, and then go on from there.

[nblum]

I think the time for a referendum to the entire Eastern Division membership, and even the entire TCA membership concerning the no photos rule is long overdue (no pun intended). Just voting at the poorly attended bi-annual membership meeting is clearly inadequate for such an issue. My own suggestion would be a referendum saying that photos in trading halls during trading hours are verboten, but that photos outside active trading hours and in non-trading halls and areas are allowed with the permission of those whose table or area is being photographed. What's the problem? The problem is resistance to rational change and an unwillingness to hear the concerns of those who do not regularly attend the business meeting. That can be easily remedied with a referendum on the subject. It was done for the dues increase (which I voted in favor of, by the way), it can be done for this inflammatory issue.

In the mean time, punishing the entire NCT organization for the actions of one or a few individuals represents the height of administrative over-reaction and gives the impression of organizational paranoia. Plus all the attendant bad karma/PR.

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

In his own words:

QUOTE: Originally posted by Frank53

I think the horse is officially dead - but by all means keep beating it if it does something for you.

You gave me some good advice last year, so..............

gee Buckeye, I'm honored you would save my old posts for ready reference. You guys still compare notes on this stuff? I certainly don't want to incurr any more wrath than I already have, considering my picture is probably in every post office in Ohio by now.

[RI Jim]

After 12 pages of this debate over on the OGR Forum, and wading through four pages over here, I still feel compelled to point out something that was mentioned previously.
That is, I am fully aware that this issue is the Eastern Division of the TCA's to deal with. Why isn't the Eastern Division subject to direction from the National TCA? I am a TCA member, not Eastern Division, and feel I should have a say in the matter beyond posting my concerns online. It should be the National TCA's issue as it has put a black eye on ALL of us TCA members, not just Eastern Division. Just MHO.

[Poppa_Zit]

Bob --

I guess I'm the "bad guy" to whom Frank53 refers.

Well, I don't think I'm so bad.[(-D]

I share with you a similar career, and I also understand the tribulations of trying to be ringmaster of a forum like this one. Frankly, though, I was surprised my use of the word "whorelike" was singled out. Let me present my side.

Of course, I know it is a very strong word, and that's exactly why I used it to describe what I consider a vile group of people. In a market as big as Chicago, I've seen these cutthroats operate, and it ain't pretty. They even try to screw each other, which is some sort of well-deserved, weird juxtaposition.

I do not believe it is a patently objectionable word, as it has several uses. While we all know the most common use, my usage in the post is that of No. 3 below, which in today's journalism is not uncommon and is used more as an analogy when combined with the suffix "like":

[From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary on AOL]

Whore
Function: noun
1 : a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : PROSTITUTE ; also : a promiscuous or immoral woman
2 : a male who engages in sexual acts for money
3 : a venal or unscrupulous person

As professional writers, by default we are the guardians of the English language, which truthfully, I find to be very, very scary.[:O]

[Bob Keller]

No Frank, you play pretty nicely over here.

I just have a finite amount of time to devote to policing hot topics and to get my magazine job done ... I'd rather the thread wrap itself up when all sides have been heard and nobody is getting a razor ready to slit tires of their foes at the next York meet.

[Buckeye Riveter]

In his own words:

QUOTE: Originally posted by Frank53

I think the horse is officially dead - but by all means keep beating it if it does something for you.

You gave me some good advice last year, so..............

[Frank53]

It's your backyard Bob, I just pass through and play in it once in a while. I must've missed the word you referenced. It just seems like it's still a very civil discussion, which recently branched off into operator or collector.

Despite the whisperings of the underground railway, I'm not the bad guy Bob, and my posts and discussions in this thread and others have, in my opinion, been respectful and courteous. Heck I even paid Allan a compliment in this very thread! [:D]

[Bob Keller]

Because pretty much everything that could be said, has been said.

My moderator powers began to tingle when the word "whorelike" was injected, as I stated two posts ago. The ship is steering toward the rocks and I don't want to delete the thread.

I can just delete it, if you'd prefer, Frank.

[Frank53]

this appears to be a very civil discussion which has taken a couple of turns - all respectfully and well stated - while the original horse may be dead, it appears a couple of colts have sprung up that have some life. Why cut short an ongoing, civil discussion?

[tsgtbob]

Let it be said, I did behave myself...[:D]

[Bob Keller]

Yes, again, HINT, HINT, HINT, let's let this thread end so I don't have to ask Erik to lock it.

[Dr. John]

Gentlemen,

Re: this thread

To paraphrase the "dead parrot skit" of Monty Pyton . . .
'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This horse is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e
rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im upright in 'is stall 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the feedbag! 'E's kicked the
bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-HORSE!!

Perhaps it's time to stop beating it!

[tschmidt]

Wow, I've been reading the discussions on the forums and this is probably the hottest topic I've seen in a while. This forum has been more civil than the other.

I love to play with trains and collect trains. I guess I don't see why grown ups have to argue over these silly things. This all will hopefully lead to good discussion about change in how things are at York. As a TCA member I look forward to the opportunity to do just that.

I learned something very important once as I had to lead the change process at a school where I was an administrator and that is..."the only person who likes change is a wet baby."

Change is difficult, but sometimes necessary.
TomS

[Frank53]

To give credit where credit is due, Allan Miller probably had the most level headed bead on this whole incident starting with the posted email.

As for collector vs operator, while a pure collector sans layout isn't an operator, an operator might be considered a collector. My trains are all post war originals, which when my layout is done will all be runners. While I have bought some additional trains that I thought would fit my time/georgraphy theme, I don't really see a lot of things I just have to have for my "collection"., but do have a hit list of things I want to operate on my layout.

Like Agent O-27, I lean to stuff that could be run on O27 track, although my layout has and will have 31, 42 and 54 curves and no O27. In the small area in which I am working, it just looks better.

[brianel027]

Hey Allen, with all due respect, I do agree with you. There's the old saying for every rule there's an exception and for every exception there's a rule. It's very easy to apply definitions to places or things, but the waters muddy a bit when you try to do it with people.

My take on the collector versus the operator is really a generalism and certainly has exceptions. It is based on my experience and observations, but I'd be the first to know it's not iron clad. Even in the hobby itself, things have become more blurred in recent years. The HO guys for example may refer to us as "tinplaters" and that would appear to apply "toy train." Yet look at the trend at scale operation and products in recent years. Even though I'm an 027 operator (which would also imply toy train), I consider myself a hi-railer since I do so much detailing, even if it is on a scale-blurred line. But I know there are others who feel anything related to 027 is simply toy train. Even the train importers have been steering away from the 027 term for a while now: I had people from one specific company tell me they were avoiding the use of the 027 term for that very reason, even though many of their products still negotiated the standard 027 curve.

Complicated? Confusing? Yep. Look at the threads from folks just entering the hobby saying they are confused about all these new terms, products, technologies, etc. Referring to this hobby as a simple pastime might be an understatement since the trains and anyone's layout can be as complex as they can afford to make it.

Allan, I second Walt Rapp's second paragraph above and also thank Bob Keller for allowing this thread to go it's course. I'm certain it'll fade away of it's own, but it's also been a good discussion too.

It's actually a perfect example by reading everyone's take on this topic, of how diverse in some respects the 3-rail train hobby has become, even though we do all STILL share that center third rail!

[Bob Keller]

Well, save perhaps for the injection of the word "whorelike," this has been a pretty thorough and well-thought-out discussion of the topic. And this is probably a good point to let the thread end (HINT, HINT, HINT) until something new on the subject arises.

In a nutshell, York is the Eastern Division's baby. They have some rules and they enforce the rules, and that is something they have the right to do.

On the other hand, some folks think some of the rules need a reality check because some of the rules don't seem to make too much sense. So be it. I'm inclined to agree, but I'm a customer, not a decision maker. I'll go with the flow.

This is an issue for the Eastern Division membership to sort out, and I suspect that between our forum, the OGR forum, and the Model Train Journal forum, they have probably picked up some hints about popular opinion on the subject.

And as an aside, people who talk about boycotting York or quitting the TCA are just cutting off their nose to spite their face. If you regularly go to York, you'd be missing out on the darndest collection of "for sale" trains you're likely to see anywhere. If you're in the TCA and aren't inclined to go to York, you'll miss out on the Quarterly, which always features gems that are unlikely to make it into print in either CTT or OGR.

Still, its your choice to do what you wish, but the reality is that unless 10,000 people skipped York or dropped TCA membership, the real world suggests that nothing much will change.

Nevertheless, great discussion of a hot button topic. [8D]

[waltrapp]

Allan,

I have to offer my sympathies to you!!! You've been such a stout TCA supporter over the last few years this must really pain you. I recall comments from you such as "Greatest train organization", etc. in some of your earlier postings.

Since words' meanings can be misunderstood, especially mine with the way that I sometimes say things, I'm not in any way being critical of you or trying to throw this one in your face. I just have always thought of you as a true train guy and TCA supporter and to read some of your comments here, I don't know how you got your fingers to type those sentences!

- walt

[Anonymous]

So let me get this straight: "Collectors" are interested in making a buck, if possible, when they sell their train items, but "operators" do not share that concern when they want to sell their train items?

Sorry, but I can't buy that. I've seen collectors seek what I feel are unrealistic prices for things, but I've also seen operators ask for similarly unrealistic (in my opinion) prices. And, yes, the TCA does enforce its grading standards. All one has to do at York is ask for a Standards Committee member to come to the table if he, as a prospective buyer, question the stated condition or grading of an item. Happens all the time.

The TCA most certainly has a bumpy future ahead if it follows its present course--no question about that--but I'm not at all convinced it is solely due to some "difference" between collectors and operators in the hobby. I think it goes much deeper than that, and is far more complex.

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brianel027

Of course, this is my opinion on the two terms, but is also based on years of being the hobby. In the past I had some somewhat negative interactions with TCA members, who for example will tell you a particular train item is worth say $100.00. Then tell you in the next sentence that if you can’t find a buyer, he’ll give you $20.00 for the item. Having had this happen a number of times, it gives me the impression that some TCA members are more concerned with making a fast buck than really promoting the hobby or sharing the joy of the hobby. Too many times I’ve seen the TCA number on a seller’s table at a train show along with cheap train sets labeled “mint” but in soda pop boxes. Sometimes I wonder if some members of the TCA even understand their very own grading guidelines, or do they assume that anyone who isn’t a member of the TCA is a prime target to be taken advantage of?

Spot on. The whole thing centers around *money* -- when you consider a TCA committee spent a lot of time recently to completely overhaul the "TCA Grading System." It has become even more detailed -- and complicated -- than ever. Why such a fuss, if money wasn't part of the equation?

And one thing I dislike is the whorelike dealers who try to pass themselves off as "collectors." As you say, they look for bargains from unknowledgeable sellers in order to resell at a large profit. I've even heard TCA guys laugh about the money they've made by lowballing unwitting sellers who innocently call them for estate appraisals. Does the TCA have rule that says members must give honest evaluations?

[brianel027]

Allan, in reference to the collector versus operator element, I know what you are saying. In reality any operator is also a collector. But given the past history of the hobby, this is how I consider the terms in my mind:
-The collector is more concerned with the rarity/collectibility and financial aspect of collecting. He may or may not have a layout, but the major concern is acquiring unusual, rare and pristine condition pieces. Although many collectors build collections to keep, there are others who look for bargains from unknowledgeable sellers in order to resell at a large profit.... I've seen this last one in effect many times from TCA members.
-The operator is more concerned with trains that perform well and look right on his/her layout. The operator certainly "collects" trains, but on the basis of operational function, road names, detail levels, size, scale (or lack of the previous 3) and list price. I find the operator isn't as concerned with after market values as with the list price and finding a bargain in that respect. The operator tends to buy with the idea of not reselling.

Of course, this is my opinion on the two terms, but is also based on years of being the hobby. In the past I had some somewhat negative interactions with TCA members, who for example will tell you a particular train item is worth say $100.00. Then tell you in the next sentence that if you can’t find a buyer, he’ll give you $20.00 for the item. Having had this happen a number of times, it gives me the impression that some TCA members are more concerned with making a fast buck than really promoting the hobby or sharing the joy of the hobby. Too many times I’ve seen the TCA number on a seller’s table at a train show along with cheap train sets labeled “mint” but in soda pop boxes. Sometimes I wonder if some members of the TCA even understand their very own grading guidelines, or do they assume that anyone who isn’t a member of the TCA is a prime target to be taken advantage of?

Granted the TCA is a big organization, but I often wonder how rampant this attitude really is?

All in all, along with some of the recent TCA debates posted on the forums, it has put my view of the TCA in a somewhat diminished light. Whether it has any bearing on actual reality is an open topic. But as with many other things in life, first impressions are important. And often the last to be forgotten about.

Hey, this is just my feeling. I’m certain the TCA does some very good things too. But with the advent of the internet and the various for sale venues, I find the YORK show less necessary. As far as seeing what new products the train importers are introducing, I find the majority of the products out of my financial reach. And as far as making my voice heard with the train importers, it is obvious that aside from RMT and Williams (and maybe now Atlas), they’re really not interested in guys like me, so why bother.

Again, just my opinion. But if other modelers and operators feel the way I do, the TCA might have something to worry about in the years to come.

[Anonymous]

I don't know enough of the Eastern Div. or TCA officers well enough personally to be able to paint them with a broad stereotype brush as some are inclined to do, but I do hope that the more progressive thinkers and visionaries among them will see this incident as an opportunity for some self-examination in terms of the organization's long-term goals and objectives.

I consider myself both a collector and operator, and never have really confined my interests to one area to the exclusion of the other. Since I dabble in various scales, it has always been easy enough to find groups and activities--not to mention trains--that enhance my enjoyment of the hobby and expand my knowledge and what little skills I may have.

The truth be told, I have yet to meet an operator who was not also a collector, even if he's not willing to admit it, and most of the train collectors I've ever met also have a layout of some sort and engage in operating at least some of their trains. I guess I just don't see it as an "us" vs. "them" sort of division, by and large, even though one might not get that impression from some of the posts made on-line.

I do agree that long-entrenched heirarchies in some organizations tend to take on a life of their own, and that ultimately can lead to their undoing. There's little doubt that this one incident has done serious harm that will be difficult to overcome; that it probably could not have come at a worse time; and that both TCA and Eastern Div. officers and former officers have made things even worse every time they put their fingers to a keyboard by coming across as pompous, arrogant, and generally uncaring about the reactions of members and non-members alike (and that latter group is equally important, in my opinion).

I've only been a TCA member for 14 years--a relative newcomer compared to some--but I must say that this is the first time I've had some doubts about the organization and its commitment to presenting the best it has to offer to the hobby in general and to its members in particular. I have to keep reminding myself that this is an Eastern Division matter and not a TCA matter, but it seems that the lines between the two are being increasingly blurred.

[Anonymous]

IMHO, this was a clash of cultures that has been simmering for a long time. The collectors vs. operators. I bet the majority of folks joining TCA today are operators, not collectors, and most join because it gets them into York twice a year. Just take a look at your TCA membership directory and you'll see where the highest concentration of members are located. And these new folks don't give a flip about the petty politics and ego trips of many of the TCA officers and board members. The old guard of the TCA is slowing fading away and those hanging on are either unwilling or unable to change with the times. All of their talk about promoting the hobby and attracting new members is nothing more than lip service at best. Their main objective is the preservation and value of their personal collections. I'm not saying all of the leadership, but I think it applies to the majority of them.

Sorry if I offended anyone here, but that's my belief FWIW.

[Frank53]

gee thanks Dave. [%-)]

[nblum]

One would have thought that a sensible official TCA response would have been that the first email was not for public discussion and did not represent official TCA policy on this episode. Further, that the issue would be dealt with by DUE PROCESS, as in any legitimate organization with claims to adult civilized behavior. We are a nation of laws, and hopefully the TCA is an organization of rules. Laws and rules need to be interpreted by accepted processes. Clearly that has not occurred here. If the rules have been broken or a dispute occurs, the place for TCA officials to comment on it and the type of comments that have been posted do not reflect well on the TCA, regardless of the alleged provocation, IMO. I'm amazed, to say the least.

[FJ and G]

Frank,

Thanks, I'll eventually go just to meet all of the fine folks like you.

Allan,

That mindset is entrenched in the officialness of many bureaucrates, esp. in gov't and in non-profit associations (but also in the military and the private sector and esp. in the many HOAs and county commissioners and those who approve/disapprove of zonings)). A number of these controllers (not all, but a good many who feel that control=power). wield their powers whenever possible. While the majority of humanity is good, these low-lifes tend to try to find their niche in areas where they can exert the most influence to feel important and bigger than they really are, which is infinitessimal.

[Anonymous]

Although I have long been a supporter of the TCA and the Eastern Division's York Meet, I'm also glad that incidents like this receive a public airing because the information provided--along with comments both pro and con--is revealing, educational, and helpful. Despite what some of the organization's officers and some others seem to feel, open discourse relating to an event that actually happened, and which nobody has demonstrated or alleged did not happen, is the kind of dialog that a discussion forum is all about.

CTT, and the members of this forum, are to be commended for keeping things generally civil and on course. After many pages of comments, another forum slammed the door on debate, in part because tthe discussion began to go astray (as so often happens with impassioned disussions on ANY topic), and in part, I imagine, because a former TCA official--in his infinite wisdow--chimed in calling for a boycott of the forum sponsor's products (about as silly a thing as I have ever read on any toy train forum). And, of course, dues-paying members of the TCAs own list--the REAL owners of that forum--are not even allowed to debate the topic. There's really something wrong with that picture!

In any case, I have found this to be a very interesting and illuminating topic, and it has sure opened my eyes to an organizational mindset that I didn't know existed, or perhaps repressed in my own mind in the hope that it didn't exist. Definitely not something I would have wished to see happen, but since it did happen I'm sure glad I had a chance to learn something about it.

[Anonymous]

David's idea is a good one folks! Allow Pics!!! I've been a big Toy Tractor fan for a few years, and every year in Toy Farmer Mag, and on the web, are oodles of photo's from the annual National Farm Toy Show in Dryersville, and I'm telling you... it makes you want to go!!! Had I not moved out west, I would have gone by now. And guess what... they have to add vendor space every year because the turnout grows and grows. I don't know who' right, who's wrong... don't even care much about the fore mentioned rules... but from the outside looking in, something seems to be broke and in need of fixin!
Good evening everyone.
Greg

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by msacco

The two groups should have been allowed to work this out privately first.

I agree. But they had that option, didn't they? Then none of us would know about it. It is obvious the Eastern Division guy grossly overreacted, coming out guns blazing, kicking butt and not taking names. His blindness to the possible ramifications caused by his uncalled-for, too-strongly-worded tirade is what caused the whole flareup. I'm just glad he's with the TCA and not in charge of United States nuclear warheads. [(-D]

QUOTE: Shame on the person who let this out without permission from the email author.

Part of me feels the same way. But, permission is not needed in these instances, especially when such an email is "evidence" in cases of unfair practices.

After much thought, as a longtime TCA member I'm glad this business has been exposed. Maybe some good shall come of it. If you read that original email, the guy who sent it made it a personal vendetta, which is a TOTAL misuse of authority. Either he has too much authority, or he made a huge mistake by trying to handle this without consulting first with other Eastern Division leaders about how it should be handled. No matter, he accepted a position of authority and responsibility and all that comes with it; he now must live with his decision.

It's also unfair the Trackers weren't even offered a hearing. One guy -- one guy -- took it upon himself to hand down the decision that the Trackers were guilty -- and because of the actions of one person who took the photos, the entire group is being punished? That's tyranny.

There's more to this scenario than what appears on the surface. You have a group of elite, grumpy old men who seek to control the toy train hobby, and they get very upset when their perceived authority is questioned -- and when this kind of dirty laundry is paraded before the public.

Next thing they'll try to do is tell me what I can and can't run on my layout. [sigh]