UP Making Friends The Hard Way

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by emmaandy

"....any company would do the same."

Then why aren't they? And why haven't they in the past.

How about the company that tried to use a yellow "M"? The reason it doesn't happen often is that most people aren't that stupid.
James[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

"....any company would do the same."

Then why aren't they? And why haven't they in the past.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by emmaandy

What would happen if say a Museum who happened to own say a restored UP engine and some SP engines along with some steam engines from the same roads decided to make a calender as a fund raiser and they had pictures of these engines in the calender. Technically they, the museum own the engines, can the UP still sue them over the fund raising profits?

What about writers of books on the history of the transcontinental RR. Surely images from that era have surpassed the cut off for copy writeable images.

The US park service has a pair of replica engines in Utah that reenacts the meeting daily. Can the UP sue them unless they remove UP and CP markings?

At the new(er) park at Disneyland in California several heavily modifyed former WP California Zepher cars have been repainted in the original scheme. Should Disney remove these marks before they and the tourists taking pictures of it have legal actions taken against them.

The California State RR Museum in Sacramento should close to the public just to stay on the safe side.

I have to turn my head away now whenever I see a UP train just to stay on the safe side. It gets dangerous sometimes when I am driveing. But if I never see the train I can't have bad thoughts that may land me in a suit.




(The abriviations UP, SP,CP, WP and the term California Zepher as well as the idea of a Transcontinental RR are all registered to the Union Pacific Railroad Company and can't ever be used without permission under extreme penalty for ever and ever and ever and ever into infinity and the end of time.)

Calm down! [:D]Maybe you better take a whiff of junctionfan's cedar[:D]
UP is not going to sue for nonsense, only people trying to make money off the name it has nothing to do with if it is company published or not. Up seems to respect their history I doubt they would sue a museum, many of which they help fund. Why is it always the big guys that get beaten on? Why the greedy evil UP, and not the greedy photographer/publisher who is clearly in the wrong? I dislike liar's-at-law, but this is not a stupid lawsuit, any company would do the same.
James[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

Did anyone ever answer my half serious question about the museums that OWN equipment formerly owned by this company or predecessors. Can they fundraise using images of these without fear or what.

What is the statute of limitations on copyright. This company has been around since the mid 1800's. Would images that predate the cutoff be considered in public domain?

I know that a couple years ago Disney Co. and a few others had this date pushed back to protect early Mickey Mouse cartoons and images. Athough it seems wrong to do this as these laws were created to help the immeadiate family of the the origional holder and were not intended to last forever. They were designed to have an "expiration date". Can you imagine Leonardo Davinci's family still holding Reproduction rights to the Mona Lisa 500 years after it was painted. This is why you can go into any drugstore and buy the "name" brand as well as the generic or store brand of most over the counter drugs as well as many that need prscriptions .

These marks falling into disuse leads them to public domain after a certain point. This is why the RR has a sudden interest in reviving fallen flags. If they don't use them they go away. In my opinion it is a greedy play for fans nostalgia as a way of making some modest profits off of them.

I really disagree with a lot of the politics of the company recently, and they are playing politics you can not avoid it or deny that. The first that sticks out to me is the court case of not offering birth control pills for their female employees through the employee health planwhile out of the other side of their mouth paying for Viagara for the men. This is just one but there are several other things will not go though them right now.

i wuold be interested in hearing the FRA's take on all of this. It seems another, albeit slight excuse to avoid more mergers.

[AlanRail]

Tara Reid is upset that some condo complex is using her name in an ad saying

Tara Reid , Let it all hang out here ( or something to that effect).

She's upset because the ad makes it SOUND like she's a bit too loose. However, in the last seven days she has appeared in photos partying about town well " with her body parts hanging out!"

So here is a case of the exact opposite to the UP issue where UP is trying to protect their good image and Tara is trying to make an image.

I'm not getting the Jesus slant on this but I recall a copyright class in L-School where someone suggested doing away with copyright, patent and trademark laws. That that right, along with patents, is stated in the constitution was not enough to sway this student. So we considered the possibilities of no copyright, patent and trademark laws. The conclusion was that creativity would not cease but instead it would not be as robust ( not Tara's.)

Why would you take the time and effort to create for the joy of seeing your creation used by others without any credit for your efforts. Maybe we need to wait for the 24th century when the pursuit of wealth is not as important as personal acheivement.

[espeefoamer]

I just read the article today.The calendar in question was puplished by a Canadian and his mother.This calendar was for distribution in England.It consists mainly of historic photos.Utterly Pathetic claims in the lawsuit that ppeople might confuse this calendar for an official company publication.I don't think anyone buying this calendar would mistake it for the official PU publication[:(!][:(!][:(!]!

[Anonymous]

so, how do you know some irate "idiot" railfan did the deed and not some irate idiot employee? or even an employee "doin as told" are you stereotypn railfans as idiots?

maybe the engine was scheduled to be repainted and were just having a laugh??

ever hear of a disgruntled employee?

i would laugh even harder if it was an employee that did it

[okiechoochoo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UnionPacific3985

I was stopped at a crossing in North Little Rock, Arkansas today and a UP freight with 3 SD70's crossed and on one of the locomotives this was spray painted on the side:
"Pictures $5.00, No Pay Expect Lawsuit" Isn't that the truth. I wish I would have had my camera with me.

See, some irrate "idiot" railfan went out an defaced UP property. That person needs some adult supervision. I would think it funny if UP caught him and made him pay to repaint the entire locomotive. With actions like this, no wonder the prototype railroads look upon railfans as a problem

[okiechoochoo]

If every model railroader quit buying UP stuff it wouldn't make a small dent in UPs toilet tissue bill for a year. When are you going to realize that UP doesn't care about our opinion. Either we buy UP stuff or we don't, the choice is up to each person, but it doesn't matter to UP. They have proven in court they have the legal right to protect their logos and that is what they are doing.

[lionelsoni]

Okay, we've had politics, religion, and now lewd defamation. I think it's time to stop reading this topic.

[Anonymous]

Why do the CIA Need a lawyer!!!
They operate outside the law anyway.
Maybe UPeee hired her as a lap dancer

[brianel027]

Alan, I'm sure many here do have their own lives and there would little need to take anyone elses. The Biblical definition of prosperity is having enough to meet your own basic needs and then having some left over inorder to help the poor. Jesus didn't command us to give to ourselves or buy more stuff, but to give to the poor. Greed has little to do with this definition of prosperity and more with simply the love of money for the sake of money itself, in which enough is never enough. Of course, in our society and with the basic nature of mankind, these definitions are often altered and lines become blurred.

BTW, I'm not defending those who do terrible things and do them under the guise of the Bible. One read of the Bible will not tell you much. It's only when you spend time with the word that things start to be revealed. As Jesus said in so many words, the law is more for those who do not believe than for those who do.

You are right Alan in the the UP has rights to protect their logos, tradmarks and property from those who would infringe on them. Jim H's first paragraph above is very good and basically sums up the code of conduct for photographers. Most large comapnies have "legal law" on their side, but most won't bother with nickle and dime kind of stuff. This attitude seems to be changing though: as for example with the record companies aggressively going after private individuals for downloading music. This move seems to be aimed at an example of someone, to stop others by means of fear. Even with the music business, making copies for your own personal /private use has never been prosecuted... it's when people go to sell these items when the problems begin. In this sense, I liked the attitude of the band "The Grateful Dead" who never frowned on people making bootleg recordings of their live shows... they actually encouraged it. And despite this activity, the Dead only grew in status and popularity and continued with a lengthy career.

Reading about the various operational problems (in Trains magazine) the UP has been having in recent years, it might make better sense for the UP to focus on their immediate problems at hand. And those seem to involve providing timely quality service to their customers, rather than going after photographers, etc. Though it is within the UP's legal rights to do both, it makes far more sense for them (at least from this novice point of view) to devote more energy to their core reason for being a company in the first place.

[jimhaleyscomet]

Please correct me if I am wrong but..... fair use doctrine allows you to take a picture of anything you would like as long as it is for personal or eductional use. Only when you sell something (or do it for commercial gain)can you easily get in trouble.

Copywrite law does not specify exactly what fair use is, however the educational community suggests that copying beyond 10% of an individual book or picture and you may run afoul of fair use. I am not sure how that would apply to a railroad with thousands of engines.

Should UP enforce their copywrite/trademark rights? Yes (for the stock holders). Are they doing it the correct way? I have no idea. I think they should get a good PR firm on this issue however.

By the way...has anyone noticed how much more expensive items are when a Coke label is applied verses the non Coke items.

Jim H

[AlanRail]

If anyone started using the corporate logos of Coke, Pepsi or McDonalds on a product, calendar, shoes or a tee-shirt without permission; one might think that the item came from Coke Pepsi or McDees. But they would be using those Logos because they are popular and they can be used to make a profit.

The ONLY reason that you would use UP's logo is that you are using the goodwill built and paid for by UP over the years and making a profit without paying the ones who made the Logo what it is!

If not then see how many people will buy a calendar with trains bearing a "PU" logo.... none.

It is not Greed on the part of UP but Greed on the part of the infringer. Why is that so hard to understand? Maybe because many of you comjplainers have nothing that anyone wants so you might as well take your frustrations out on the big guys....

get a life or maybe take someone elses!

[UnionPacific3985]

I was stopped at a crossing in North Little Rock, Arkansas today and a UP freight with 3 SD70's crossed and on one of the locomotives this was spray painted on the side:
"Pictures $5.00, No Pay Expect Lawsuit" Isn't that the truth. I wish I would have had my camera with me.

[Anonymous]

It is public knowledge that Ms. Manwaring worked as a CIA employee. .In fact the following appearred in an article by former Trains Magazine Columnist Don Phillips in the Internatioinal Herald-Tribune:
The Union Pacific program was started in 2002 following the arrival of a new company attorney, Brenda Mainwaring, who had recently left the CIA. (Emphasis added.) Davis said she was not available for an interview.

[Anonymous]

It is public knowledge that Ms. Manwaring worked as a CIA employee. .

[Anonymous]

Hey johnblair no outing of CIA agents please. Where do you think you are, some place with no laws or morality?

[Anonymous]

What would happen if say a Museum who happened to own say a restored UP engine and some SP engines along with some steam engines from the same roads decided to make a calender as a fund raiser and they had pictures of these engines in the calender. Technically they, the museum own the engines, can the UP still sue them over the fund raising profits?

What about writers of books on the history of the transcontinental RR. Surely images from that era have surpassed the cut off for copy writeable images.

The US park service has a pair of replica engines in Utah that reenacts the meeting daily. Can the UP sue them unless they remove UP and CP markings?

At the new(er) park at Disneyland in California several heavily modifyed former WP California Zepher cars have been repainted in the original scheme. Should Disney remove these marks before they and the tourists taking pictures of it have legal actions taken against them.

The California State RR Museum in Sacramento should close to the public just to stay on the safe side.

I have to turn my head away now whenever I see a UP train just to stay on the safe side. It gets dangerous sometimes when I am driveing. But if I never see the train I can't have bad thoughts that may land me in a suit.




(The abriviations UP, SP,CP, WP and the term California Zepher as well as the idea of a Transcontinental RR are all registered to the Union Pacific Railroad Company and can't ever be used without permission under extreme penalty for ever and ever and ever and ever into infinity and the end of time.)

[Anonymous]

The UP is starting to dig themselves into a PR nightmare. and the other railroads are starting to privately laugh at them. Ms Manwaring ought top be told to go back to the CIA where they don't have to deal with the puiblic too much.

[brianel027]

Okay aside from my humor above. On a personal level, UP is one of those roads I don't care much about. Must be it sells because there is always some starter product available in UP over roads I like such as Conrail, CSX, Norfolk Southern, CP Rail, CNA.

Certainly the actions the UP is taking could potentially set a precedent or example for the rest of the rail industry.

On the other hand, Lionel, K-Line and others are certainly protective of their names and logos. In the case of Lionel, they have pretty strict requirements to become a Lionel dealer with many rules and requirements that don't necessarily add up to selling more trains as they do to maintaining some kind of corporate/retail sales image. Lionel has strict rules about dealers taking current year product to train shows (authorized dealers are not suppose to do this). Lionel wants as much money up front for product runs, which of course favor large distributors/mail order houses - though this isn't necessarily good for growth of the hobby. Lionel has been protective of its TMCC/Railsounds technology and licensing... otherwise their might not be another lawsuit against K-Line.

Lionel has also been aggressive in going after businesses who use their logo without proper authorization. Lionel even has some kind of copyright on the orange and blue color scheme that they use on their boxes and packaging. I'm not saying this is wrong... but if Lionel and the other "toy" train makers expect others to adhere to their marketing / licensing rules, it only seems fair that the model train makers adhere to others rules.

To us modelers and supporters of this hobby, the lawsuits going on between the model train companies may appear to make no sense for the hobby. They've certainly helped to polarize a hobby that already has a great deal of vocal brand loyalty and subsequent bashing. Yet on some level, I can't help but wonder how what the UP is doing is any different from legal / protective copyright actions the model train makers have already taken.

In 1996 Lionel had cataloged a Lego type flat car that ended up being cancelled because of apparent lack of authorization. Both Lionel and K-Line had later cataloged Kodak items: K-Line had a 3-pack that included an MP-15, box car and tank car; Lionel had a tank car. These items had gotten produced in some quantity when to my understanding, Kodak demanded royalties. Again, to my understanding, the items were cut short in production runs.

In a more common sense way of thinking: if you ask your neighbor for a hammer and he loans it to you, he won't appreciate it when you charge him to borrow your screwdriver. Companies of all sorts have become very protective of their names, corporate logos nad related property etc. Some of this is no doubt due to the "sue you - ask questions later" mentality of our society and the legal libalities associated. some of it is also no doubt associted with pure greed.

Nothing wrong with making money. Nothing wrong with being profitable. But there is something wrong when simple acts of good will, decency and charity become the exception rather than the rule.

These actions of the UP may backfire on them. But no less so than the actions of Lionel have backfired on them in having fewer and fewer local dealers in a market that needs MORE (not fewer) local dealers inorder to introduce newcomers to the hobby. Or any of the other model train associated lawsuits that may serve to create more revenue for the winning company, but have also sewn many more seeds of ill will in the hobby.

To paraphrase from the Bible: Money isn't everything, and if you can't be responsible with the little gifts you receive, then you may not be trusted to receive the big gifts.

[Anonymous]

maybe if we had nationwide coverage of kids and handicaped kids from around the world removing UP from their toy trains, that would get attention...

one thing is for shore.... we need to band together on this... all scales all gauges.... and not just take it like blind little sheep!!! BAAA BAAAAA

some railroads have been "floated" for decades by taxpayers...

maybe now UP should pay the american citizens to operate on rails maintained thru the years by overtaxed taxpayers... and if UP ever got one thin dime from the public as bailout money, then its payback time baby!!

we need to standup and screww them harder then they screw us!! power to the people!!!

LMAO- that was fun, sadly i dont believe we americans can band together for anything.... example... the "Bill of Rights" does not grant me the same rights as other americans because of the color of my skin, government sponsored discrimination IE affirmative action (discrimination) has been goin on for decades yet people will not even band together to fight for TOTAL equality

[Anonymous]

Greedy and ridiculous?
If some company wanted to make a calender out of images of your face, should you be compensated? I agree that UP is doing it totally wrong. Rather than act like brutish apes they could use the kinder gentler approach. They are entitled to reap the benefits of the company they manage. Fallen flags however, should remain where they are, a part of history.
*The problem is that they're not being criticized nearly enough, or in the right places*
Now you're just being silly.

[TrainFreak409]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

"Everyone is getting annoyed in the MR forums, saying that everyone should quit bashing UP. "
------------------------------

Quit criticizing them for a greedy and ridiculous policy? I don't think so! The problem is that they're not being criticized nearly enough, or in the right places. My fervent hope is that model makers will do their part, in a small way, by simply limiting the number of UP items they release, and that rail photographers, book and magazine publishers, and memorabilia manufacturers will do likewise (which is likely to happen in any event). Squeeze them until they dry up in terms of their corporate image, and until the only thing the public sees or reads about UP is their latest accident. That's about the only thing that will, over time, force them to reconsider such a greedy policy, and it'll sure keep their public relations people working overtime on damage control. Small steps, perhaps, but they can definitely have a pronounced effect.

I agree with you there. Their policy is greedy and ridiculous. So, since when do people try to protect something like that?

[Anonymous]

Just wondering, guys...

If I take my new digital camera about a mile down the road and take some pictures of CSX and Amtrak trains crossing the Occoquan River, I can get sued by CSX or Amtrak if I use MY pictures in MY calendar???

If so, then I think our so-called "justice" system is even more out of whack than we realize.

I have no complaints if this man used photos taken by UP company photographers since then they would remain the property of PU (NOT a typo). But when any company can claim control over personal photos then something is radically wrong.

Tony

[fievel]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brianel027

I think someone on the management team at the UP must have been watching some late night TV and seen the following commercial:

"Are you the owner of or the executive for a large national railroad company? Aren't you tired of novices coming alone, taking a few photos of your valuable locomotives and then making a couple of bucks to buy food? You may be entitled to riduculous amounts of compensation for this nickle and dime activity. Take them for every thing they have and then some. Call 1-800-SUE-FAST. Remember, you don't pay any fee until the vultures are circling overhead. Be one of the first 100 callers and receive a free versatile muti-purpose kitchen utility knife."

Maybe this will inspired some new television show for this fall... I can see the teasers now: "UP: Special Legal Action Unit."

Almost sounds like a terrorist organization... and maybe it is of sorts.

I don't care who you are , that's FUNNY !!![:p][}:)][}:)][:D]

[dougdagrump]

Well if they are doing some "Legacy Repaints" anybody want to bet as to whether or not they, UP, start suing more people over copyright infringement.
Or am I just being cynical. [:P]
Better watch out all you scale modelers, if you have a layout that depicts UP operations you might be next. [8]

[cnw1995]

Speaking of the UP in a friendly fashion, rumor on another list has it that they are repainting a few engines in legacy outlines - for MKT or MP - at the WSOR's shops...

[Anonymous]

Just a forewarning---

Please do not start any flame wars here!!

[:)]

[Anonymous]

"Everyone is getting annoyed in the MR forums, saying that everyone should quit bashing UP. "
------------------------------

Quit criticizing them for a greedy and ridiculous policy? I don't think so! The problem is that they're not being criticized nearly enough, or in the right places. My fervent hope is that model makers will do their part, in a small way, by simply limiting the number of UP items they release, and that rail photographers, book and magazine publishers, and memorabilia manufacturers will do likewise (which is likely to happen in any event). Squeeze them until they dry up in terms of their corporate image, and until the only thing the public sees or reads about UP is their latest accident. That's about the only thing that will, over time, force them to reconsider such a greedy policy, and it'll sure keep their public relations people working overtime on damage control. Small steps, perhaps, but they can definitely have a pronounced effect.