UP Making Friends The Hard Way

[Anonymous]

First of all that is every thing on the UP website I have read it all; while licensing fee is normal an extra royalty fee of a few pennies isn't going to make a big deal. Even at O scale prices a few pennies won't be more than a few dollars. How has UP caused all of this, since most people have licensing? I think all the hubbub is caused by people who assume anything UP does is just for greed, UP is out to get modelers, and UP is evil. People spreading this idea are giving UP a bad reputation. UP is not doing anything wrong.

[Anonymous]

Nice bit of "selective citation" there, Lotus! Try reading and citing the entire agreement, not just a few pr quotes that support your position. There's a whole lot more involved than just the royalty fees (and when was the last time you ever saw a $10 item in O gauge?).

Licensing arrangements have been around for many years. Most folks are already aware of that. But doesn't the obvious fact that this new UP policy has created a widespread furor in the ranks of hobbyists, raifans, and the supporting industry itself give you at least a hint that something about the UP policy is very different from the norm? Do you truly believe that industry leaders, the NMRA, the hobby retail industry, and a good number of railfans and hobbyists have generated all this discussion simply because they don't like the UP? [:-^]

[Anonymous]

Here is what I found at the website (bolded by myself):

The Union Pacific licensing program is designed to allow manufacturers of branded merchandise to use the names, symbols and heralds of the company in an accurate and successful manner. This includes the constituent and historic railroads that currently make up the Union Pacific system. Licensees will receive program support from the company and will benefit from the company's investment in a much larger licensing and branding program.

Highlights of the program include:

A rate structure for model train manufacturers that is significantly below industry licensing standards. For example, on a $10 item royalty rates are pennies.
Continuing support of licensees with graphic standard compliance and new product introductions.
Access to trademarks and service marks of the Union Pacific Railroad Company and other railroads that are now a part of the modern Union Pacific system, which are among the oldest and most valuable trademarks in the nation.
The opportunity to benefit from Union Pacific's increased investments in public awareness advertising and programs.

[;)]Now that I have seen this I am shocked why they make pennies or on hundreds of dollar items even "gasp" dollars, what greed. And look what we are paying for how dare you charge modelers for this! The last time I saw greed this bad was with bush and his oil buddies.[;)]

[Anonymous]

The UP fees are basically defined in their licensing agreement, which is (or was) posted on their web site. The fee charged depended on a variety of factors, and the record-keeping requirement was ridiculous.

Most railroads with licening arrangements do not charge royalties (or, at least, haven't to this point). Most are simply interested in maintaining some measure of quality control over products made bearing their trademarks. In other words, they want the right to "sign-off" on a product before it is produced and sold. Definitely nothing unreasonable about that. The same applies to a great many other major corporations. Some I have worked with on licensing agreements in the past include Coca-Cola, Disney, Mattel, Harley Davidson, United Features Syndicate (Peanuts), Remington, and a number of others. Never paid fees to or royalties to any of them, and none ever asked for any in their agreements.

But let me tell you one firm that did want royalties on a book I wrote: Lionel, when it was under *** Maddox's control.

The only other one I can recall in my experience was Ty--the Beanie Baby folks. And we turned that one down. You can see what eventually--rather quickly, in fact--happened to the Beanie Baby empire as the result of their heavy-handed approach on licensing with numerous other entities.

[Anonymous]

Finally some logic! You make a lot of sense, but how much is UP charging compared to any other company? I don't know, but would love to find out. If it is unreasonable, UP is just shooting themselves in the foot. However it is possible some companies are using licensing costs as an excuse and charging more for UP to make more profit on a very popular road name. I notice Athearn doesn't charge more for UP and with their low price they would loose a greater margin, but other companies who charge more charge much more for UP even though the licensing is a much smaller % of the cost. I meant no insults, but people back east often ask how far from Des Moines, they forget this state is here, so we make a lot of jokes about people back east.
James[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

Reading and PA RR:

I don't for a minute think that charging a premium for UP models will cause UP to reverse its policy--only more enlightened and public-spirited leadership in Omaha can do that.

But I do believe the following:

1. Charging a premium for UP items is both logical and fair. UP is collecting the bounty, and the manufacturers are left holding the bag accounting for those amounts. Furthermore, there are a good many of us who are very unhappy with the UP's heavy-handed approach and who do not want to be supporting it through our purchases, even if the dollar amounts are modest.

2. A lot of newcomers to the hobby will quickly see that UP items cost more than identical items decorated in some other livery (as they do now in some cases, based on inquiries I've seen posted on various forums and boards). Unless they already have a preferred roadname (unlikely in the case of many novices), they'll opt for the lower-cost item, all other things being equal. This will help to reduce UP's "take" from the manufacturer's till.

3. As demand for UP items decreases (due to their greater cost), fewer of these items will be sought, and fewer will be made. It won't adversely impact the manufacturers all that much because there are plenty of roadnames for them to choose from in most cases, but it will reduce the overall visibility of UP throughout the hobby. That, in turn, will have a ripple effect that will continually reduce the viability of UP products. The only folks hurt by this would be the avid UP supporters/modelers, but that's the way it should be, shouldn't it?

As I noted earlier, some manufacturers are already pricing UP items differently than the same items decorated for other roads. I applaud that policy, and hope that a good many hobbyists will support those manufacturers who are following that course.

The ideal solution would have been for the hobby industry--including dealers--to have come together to fight this nonsense--particularly as it relates to long-gone fallen flags--but I guess there's too much division and competitiveness in the industry nowadays for that to have happened. They have no unified voice, and that hurts them in this case and will likely hurt them all even more as time goes by. You can already see it happening on an almost daily basis, as more and more mom-and-pop hobby dealerships fall by the wayside. Little effective and repetitive promotion of the hobby by the industry; a declining number of hobby retailers; consolidation and/or bankruptcy by model makers in various scales; rampant litigation; a glut of product that can't be absorbed by the market; continually rising prices; and a market itself that is decreasing in terms of its real numbers because next to nothing is being done to effectively grow the hobby. None of that bodes particularly well for the future, and this ridiculous policy from UP just makes a bad situation worse.

[tmcc man]

thanx Reading and PA RR, i was finished but thanx for that truly.[^]

[Anonymous]

Let's definitely keep it friendly over here on this Board. It is actually relaxing to read the posts here, rather than the blood-boiling that one finds on some of the other boards. We can all agree to disagree, or agree to agree, or whatever, but I agree with Allan on his idea to keep it friendly. I do, respectfully disagree with his idea that higher prices for UP stuff should only be paid for by the people buying the UP stuff. I see his point, and it's generally a good one, but where I disagree is that I don't see how his intended outcome will be the result. It's not like if Lionel, Atlas, MTH, K-Line, and Weaver charge $5-$10 more for UP items that you will see 50,000 angry train hobbyists surrounding the UP headquarters building with picket signs and chanting "No Way ! No Way ! We're just not going to PAY". I just don't see it happeneing. (Sorry Allan !) I think that the train manufacturers should sell good merchandise, at a reasonable profit, and treat their customers like human beings.

But anyway, let's keep it civil and kind over on this forum. As the great philosopher and musician Phil Lesh once said, "In heavy times such as these, it is important to remember to act with some grace, so that we don't just survive, but do it in style."

[tmcc man]

BigJim, my favorite is the lotus Espirit, with NOS though, i will still beat you., but if you give me the Lamborghini Murceliago you will be tasting my exhaust

[Anonymous]

No point in focusing this thread on personalities, since that is precisely the tactic UP's defenders prefer in order to get such discussions deleted. Far better to just stick to the topic; keep the heat turned up; and continue to inform others, in a reasonable way, of the detrimental way UP's policies are impacting the model railroad and railfanning community.

And, of course, it's important to repeatedly remind the various manufacturers that, while they may elect to continue making UP-related products, they should treat the rest of the hobby fairly by passing on those licensing costs--royalties and all the associated administrative costs--only to those who consume those specific products (which should, in fact, facilitate their record keeping). Over time, that will have an impact, especially since so many hobbyists are very price sensitive. Aristo-Craft, Kato, and a few others are already following that course, and all others who intend to produce UP-related items need to be continually reminded to do the same.

[BigJim]

You guys can have your wimpy little four bangers. Give me a Lotus 79 and I'll win the World Championship!

[Anonymous]

Nope I only read train magazines, they don't make the lotus 7 any more it is a little car with no roof no doors and it is beautiful, although a bit small for some. I meant too many, as in people with the same mindset as you (which since you agree with yourself may take that as a complement).


Time to get back on topic.

[tmcc man]

what do you mean like me as in people like me as in a friend, or just as a rude person, because i do not think i am rude because i speak my mind, just say what you think please.

[tmcc man]

lotus 7 i have never heard of it. you read R&T, andn C&D

[Anonymous]

The Lotus 7. I won't go back east, too many people like you.

[tmcc man]

hey lotus don't come east joking .what is your favorite lotus the ESPIRIT, or the ELISE
and i dont mean licensing i think their colors are dull

[Anonymous]

UP has enough brains not to get Trains Magazine mad at them! Now you are just being silly the color has nothing to do with a policy on licensing. You should stay back there we don't need you out west. And yes my name does come the car company.

[tmcc man]

i agree with both munster518, and TRAIN FREAK409, and this is why i do not see UP on many of the roads i have seen. i am really suprised that Erik and Mike have not been talked to by the stUPid. besides the railroad color is way too dull, just yellow and gray, and it is all the way across the country, and frankly i have no interest in it and i am going to stick with the east coast roads.

if you have a problem with what i said Lotus098 holla at ya boy
did you take yer name from the car company lotus?
TMCC MAN out!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tmcc man

QUOTE: Originally posted by Munster518

So, since this guy is selling a calendar with UP pictures in it, wouldn't that benefit the railroad being that you are promoting it[:0]. And, why is the UP so upset? Whats next I wonder, ohh boy! I agree with TRAIN FREAK 409, you can't spell stupied without UP, HA.[:p]

Sincerely
John

How about we come out with a Model Railroader calendar knowing they put out their own, I am pretty sure it is a licensed name, and sell it for a large profit I guess this would be no problem since it does support Model Railroader. You guys need to think sometimes.
James[C):-)]

[tmcc man]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Munster518

So, since this guy is selling a calendar with UP pictures in it, wouldn't that benefit the railroad being that you are promoting it[:0]. And, why is the UP so upset? Whats next I wonder, ohh boy! I agree with TRAIN FREAK 409, you can't spell stupied without UP, HA.[:p]

Sincerely
John

[Anonymous]

Who's feeble? How about some facts? Scam? What has UP done that isn't normal as far as licensing goes? Point out some of our flaws. Can someone tell me how much this evil "train nazi" "PU" "Uncle Pete" charges for their licensing compared to other railroads? I think this shows who is in the majority. Yup lots of feeble people.
Here is a poll from the Model Railroader side of things.
James[C):-)]


How do rate the UP?
With a lot of criticism going around I wondered what the actually numbers are. So on a scale of 1 to 10 how do you rate the Union Pacific? With 10 being "I love 'em" and 1 being "They suck"

1
16% (9 votes)

2
9% (5 votes)

3
10% (6 votes)

4
2% (1 votes)

5
14% (8 votes)

6
3% (2 votes)

7
7% (4 votes)

8
12% (7 votes)

9
3% (2 votes)

10
24% (14 votes)

[Anonymous]

I love reading the feeble and flawed excuses the UP faithful consistently come up with to justify the actions of their favorite railroad. It's as if most of them haven't even read the many posts, here and elsewhere all over the Internet and in the media, that more than adequately demonstrate how UP's current policies are not at all similar to or consistent with the licensing practices customarily followed by many other corporations--rail and non-rail--many of which are far larger and better known than UP.

Support UP if you care to, and buy all the trains decorated in UP livery that you desire, but please don't shower the rest of us with tenuous justifications, and please be willing to pick up the tab for the associated costs, thus sparing the rest of us from paying anything for this scam.

And for you manufacturers out there: Yes, you're out to make a buck however you can in a small but competitive field. And, yes, you have shown a willingness, in some cases, to allow yourselves to be intimidated and bullied by UP. That's your choice. But if you've already caved and signed the dotted line with UP, at least be fair to the rest of us in the hobby by passing those costs along, as a premium charge, to those who consume UP-related products. A few of you are already doing that, and that's nice to see. Hopefully the rest will follow that lead.

UP earned and deserves the black eye it is receiving in the public arena and in the hobby, so it's only fitting that the issue be put in the spotlight--continually--whenever the situation warrants.

Just my personal opinion, but I imagine I have more than a few supporters in this regard.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I wouldn't mind so much if they only charged for use of the UP logo and name.It is theirs,and they are legally entitled to do whatever they want with it.My beef is over UP charging for use of railroad names that UP has bought out.These roads are no longer in existance,and UP does'nt use these names anymore.They only painted the "heritage" units because a judge told them they had to show these names were in current usage.Any fallen flag road name should be open for use by any model company,or photo use in calendars or books.Who would have to be paid if a company wanted to produce rolling stock lettered Rock Island,New York Ontario & Western,or Colorado Midland?

Why shouldn't they? UP did buy the names, or if not legally, it was dropped to lower the costs, and the heritage units make up for this. What is wrong with making money on logos since UP may want protect the name like I described in a previous post.
James[C):-)]

[espeefoamer]

I wouldn't mind so much if they only charged for use of the UP logo and name.It is theirs,and they are legally entitled to do whatever they want with it.My beef is over UP charging for use of railroad names that UP has bought out.These roads are no longer in existance,and UP does'nt use these names anymore.They only painted the "heritage" units because a judge told them they had to show these names were in current usage.Any fallen flag road name should be open for use by any model company,or photo use in calendars or books.Who would have to be paid if a company wanted to produce rolling stock lettered Rock Island,New York Ontario & Western,or Colorado Midland?

[Anonymous]

[?]How does suing over a calendar drive the prices up?[?] Does paying a few extra dollars on an expensive locomotive really that bad? If the extra cost of UP equipment is too much for you I think you may need a cheaper hobby, maybe take up collecting dust bunnies.

Why doesn't it matter that it wasn't it a railroad? It still happened if you think that way about everything you are in trouble.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for clearing that up UP rep.

Keeps us all on the UP and UP.

Drives the prices UP and UP for the rest of us.

Still trying to figure out what RAILROAD Company uses the Yellow M and is so dilligent about liscencing it out

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigNumber99

wow!! thats awesome!! i always loved Santa Fe :)

IMHO thats how a true "as American as apple pie " Company operates

PU is like the spoiled lil baby who wants to take its ball and run home... they are the soup kitchen "train nazi's" "no logos for you kid"

UP is letting people use their logo, since I can still buy products with it on it. UP has been very helpful with a question I had, they answered quickly and sent it over to the museum. You sound as if CSX, Amtrak, and others are not charging for licensing. Or are most railroads, with the possible exception of the BNSF a "train nazi"? Why should UP do all the work and you get everything free? While some things might be considered good will, people make these calendars and models with the intention of making money on UP’s logo. If UP did not charge for licensing anyone could use their logo or name and quality would drop, many companies might make models that use the wrong UP yellow and stand out from the rest of your cars, paint scheme’s would be invented, and it could not be pretty. The calendar, although different, is meant to show people that the UP is not going to stand for wrongly using the company name and logo.
James[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

wow!! thats awesome!! i always loved Santa Fe :)

IMHO thats how a true "as American as apple pie " Company operates

PU is like the spoiled lil baby who wants to take its ball and run home... they are the soup kitchen "train nazi's" "no logos for you kid"

[Anonymous]

When I was building my Santa Fe 1 1/2" scale GP-35. I visited the Santa Fe HQ to discus using their LOGO and paint scheme. They were more then happy to allow me to paint my diesel with their Freight Colors. In fact they gave me the information on the various paints to use and how to mix it. Not only that but I was introduced to a man who did paint jobs on the real things and he offered to painted my engine for me.
Both Southern Pacific & Santa Fe attended several of our meets and gave away several items to all the members.

I wonder if they would do that now ???