Who here likes locomotives for under $140?

[tmcc man]

i forgot to mention that i also have tmcc and i do buy the more expensive engines, an i already have the lionel lehigh valley C420, and i plan to add a D&H RS11 if i can find one

[tmcc man]

i like to buy some of those engines, and i have the lionel southern RS3, and i only put one car on it, which is a lionel gondola, i really only put it on when little kids are over, and for what i run with it,it works well[:D][:D][:D]

[dougdagrump]

Like many of you my most of my loco's, diesel and steam, are used. The exceptions being ones that I might find as a "Dealer Blowout" and generally it has to be one hell of a blowout. The same goes for about 60% to 70% of my rolling stock. [^]

[brianel027]

I like your attitude Dr. John. I've often said the same thing, that even if I had the money, train engines that cost so much would still be of no interest to me. On top of that, being out of work as long as I have, and knowing so many others in the same boat... if I had a grand to spend on a train engine, then I figure I would really have $900 to give to charity or the poor. Despite my rantings here on the Forum, my priorities have changed greatly in the past couple years. Trains are fun, but they are not the reason for life.

As I've said before, the advances in the hobby are great. People have obviously entered the hobby because of the new features. And for those who can afford it, or choose to afford it, great. But many more people might enter the hobby if the technology was practical, quality mattered and the trains were priced to appeal to families with children.

I find it somewhat amusing that Neil Young, who has made such a contribution to the digital control of trains today, is such a diehard devotee to older technology when it comes to making his records. There are plenty of artists who would never understand why Neil chooses to overlook so many of the technology advances in the recording industry. I'm not knocking Neil, and I understand the motivation behind his contributions to the advanced features in todays trains. But just as there are artists who don't want to make recordings the way Neil does, there are also folks who don't want to run trains that cost hundreds of dollars each with the latest electronic features. Some folks, either by choice or necessity, want more affordable trains with fewer features - and this is the segment of the market that has been overlooked the most in the past 10+ years.

The more, the merrier. The variety in the train business is unsurpassed today. But while the variety and choices are greater, the affordable end of most train product lines have taken a back seat in the caboose to the more expensive items.

Yes, there are some decent lower end items... I know that. But when you compare the amount of new tooling and product development from the high end to the low end, there has been scant nothing on the affordable end. Lionel has not tooled or developed not one new diesel engine on the affordable end in decades. And only in the past year have we seen some quality steam engines that do an effective job at pleases a wide spectrum of train buyers.

And as far as train cars, I think there are a lot from Lionel (like that post war reissues) that are priced less based on what they cost to be made, and much more on limiting the fall of prices on their original counterparts. For example, many of the postwar reissues have list prices of nearly $60 each. Then months down the road, you see them advertised from select dealers at over half off list.

I often wonder, had these trains been priced more reasonably in the first place, if more of them wouldn't have been sold, thus eliminating the need to blowout overstocks.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'll always take em as cheap as I can get em, but I need TMCC. I have a bunch of conventional engines that I could retrofit for about $80 a pop. I'm always watching Ebay for bargains, and have picked up a bunch for around $250. Since I'm not into steam, $1000 plus engines aren't even on my radar. I'll take 4 diesels over 1 steam engine any day.

[Dr. John]

I certainly lile locos under $140.00. That describes 90% of my locomotive collection. The only "high end" loco I have is a K-Line collectors club version of the PRR A-5 switcher with TMCC. Everything else is Williams, used, Post-war Lionel, or K-Line. I have purchased a couple of MTH engines with PS-1 used and paid under $100 each.

While I also like and admire the $1,000+ locos, I will never purchase one. I don't have that kind of money to spend on the hobby, and even if I did, I still would look for the older, or less expensive engines. To me, the hobby is more about ease of use and repair and using my imagination. I don't need to spend a fortune to have fun!

[ChiefEagles]

You are right about the dealers but individuals have begin to realize they can not move them at the higher prices. Keep your eye on the OGR Buy and Sale page.

[FJ and G]

Brian,

Excellent points! All valid, IMO. But right now, Lionel and MTH are making the bulk of their $$$ off the big spenders and high-end models. I think there's definitely a market for the inexpensive sets and individual pieces, if only they could get them on the shelves of Home Depot and Wal-Mart. But as you mentioned, the 1 motored no pull, no reverse units are the ones that make it there. Not a way to spread the business, IMO.

YOu should be going for the low-end mass consumer as well as the high end market. That IMO makes better business sense. Too bad the execs don't post here and weigh in on the debate, as they may have some valid reasons I'm overlooking.

Chief,

I'm contantly amazed at all the old 5+ years PS-1 locomotives still in ads and on hobby shop shelves; and the price has not really declined that much. Apparently, unlike any other dealers in other merchandise, the store owners are content to let them gather dust rather than take a price hit.

[ChiefEagles]

I have some big stuff now but bought LN used. From now own, I'm waiting for things to come out on the used market and buy a lot cheaper. My next project is to find LN to VG PS1 stuff and convert to TMCC. Found a CN just like the new Primier one in new MTH catalog. It is PS1 and I can comvert and save about half the price of the new PS2. Saves you a bunch of $$$$ if you want command. On top of that, if I pre-ordered, I'd be waiting just like I have for two MTH's I pre-ordered over a year ago when I first got back into the hobby. Been holding funds to pay for them [as they were to come last Sept.] when I could have used those funds to buy lots of things. [:(!][banghead][soapbox]

[brianel027]

Well I agree Dave, but it's important to discern whether we are talking list price or discount price. Most of the prices you listed above are discounted prices and not list, although certainly all above engines have reasonable list prices not far above what you quoted.

Although by far the winner for poor quality is the all-plastic single motored Lionel RS-3. It may be on the affordable side, but I consider the engine a big booby trap that will ultimately not keep poeple interested in the hobby due to it's exceptionally poor pulling ability and inferior construction. I'd recommend the Williams Centercab or the RMT Beep over the Lionel current RS-3 in a snap. The K-Line MP-15, Alco FA or retired S-2 switcher all beat the Lionel RS-3 by a long shot.

Much of this is really a matter of what the market will stand for and whether the various companies can (will) price the product accordingly. I've long felt and still feel that the drive for new up-to-date scale product and feature development is costing the companies a great deal of money. Therefore the "lower-end" products are often cheapened to the point of being just acceptable.

Lionel has offered unpainted translucent all-plastic locos with no reverse units and small die cast steamers with no reverse units or trailing trucks in train sets over the past few years. I think Lionel knows better, but the bean counters won on the features included with those items. Too bad the customers who bought those items lost.

Other examples:
-Once dual motored units from Lionel being downgraded to single motored locos.
-Sheet metal frames from Lionel being replaced with cheap thin plastic ones. Lionel could take a lesson from Inudstrial Rail products which also had plastic frames, but were more substantial in quality.
-K-Line downgraded the dual A-A Alco FA units from 4 motors to just 2 motors in the lead unit.
-K-Line downgraded the diecast front coupler on the Alco FA back to being plastic.

Since all the products are made overseas, and many in the same location, it is certainly a matter of cost and profitability playing into the companies decisions on where to price product. The RMT Beep is $60 MSRP versus the Lionel single motored RS-3 for $85. Take the similar level K-Line GP-9 with plastic frame, couplers, trucks and single motor for $60... $25 less than the Lionel engine.

Or Williams locos which feature bigger motors, die cast couplers and trucks, sheetmetal frames etc: Centercab for $130, GP-9 for $160. Compare the Lionel current Lionel GP-38 for $210 versus the new MTH Rugged Rails SD90-MAC for $180. I'll take the Rugged Rails loco on that one: bigger motors, better construction and a horn and bell, all in a modern looking engine than runs on 027 track.

I could could on, but the companies will do as they want. Lionel is still the name that draws people into the hobby or at least gets them thinking about trains again. Lionel should be taking the unquestionable lead especially with these affordable end products that are the ones that get folks started with trains. It's unfortunate that even with the recent improvements in Lionel affordable end products, that many of the competitors products are still better quality and priced lower.

The only exception here is with Lionel starter sets, where the quality levels of many of the diesels are better in the sets than they are for the separate sale locos... all the starter diesels except the RS-3 come with dual motors. Though in steam engines, Lionel does have the exceptionally nice new 0-6-0 Docksider for $105 and the new 0-4-0 for $160. These are both better values than many of the comparison level Lionel starter diesels.

Though I will note Lionel has some problems with the catalog department. The last U36B and RS3 I personally held in my hands (Conrail and black Santa Fe) both came with single motors as cataloged. The ONLY reason I did not buy that Conrail U36B loco several years ago was that it had only ONE motor and adding the second motorized truck would have set me back another $40 easily. The later released Ontario-Northland RS-3, the WP U36B and the new CSX U36B all come with dual motors though they are cataloged as having only one single motor.

[pbjwilson]

I call myself a bottom feeder when it comes to trains. I look for the well used, slightly abused toy trains. The local hobby shop has a been with "junk" track and parts. Always seem to find something good in there.

As for cheap intro sets- A couple years ago I bought the Area 51 set for my kids from Charles Roe. $150 and came with operating and illuminated rolling stock. I think Lionel does a good job with keeping the price down on their inro sets.

[FJ and G]

I do!

Half of my fleet meets that criteria:

Williams U-boat: $129
Williams GP-9: $120
LIonel RS-3: $70
Williams GG-1: got on a trade worth about $50

My most expensive locomotive is my RK Northern which was about $270, if I remember correctly; and a Premier MTH GP38-2.

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I've been pleased to see K-line come out with the Plymouth; Lionel with the 0-6-0, and the Beep is amazingly low at just $50.

THe Beep really has me wondering why other mfgrs can't bring their prices down to reasonable levels.

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(I'm not against the $1K + models. I admire their beauty and detail and if I were wealthy would get a bunch)

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WOuld be interesting to see if anyone could make a quality set for $99 and retail it at Wal-Mart with mass production. I spoke w/Walmart and other store owners and asked why they don't have trains and they said there were lots of returns. But that's b/c of all the difficulties with cheap HO sets.

IMO, a quality O scale 3-rail set (or even 2-rail O or S scale) for $99 or less would get a lot more people into the hobby and there'd be lots less frustration with the trains like the cheap HO kind they sell.