Who here likes locomotives for under $140?

[FJ and G]

I do!

Half of my fleet meets that criteria:

Williams U-boat: $129
Williams GP-9: $120
LIonel RS-3: $70
Williams GG-1: got on a trade worth about $50

My most expensive locomotive is my RK Northern which was about $270, if I remember correctly; and a Premier MTH GP38-2.

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I've been pleased to see K-line come out with the Plymouth; Lionel with the 0-6-0, and the Beep is amazingly low at just $50.

THe Beep really has me wondering why other mfgrs can't bring their prices down to reasonable levels.

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(I'm not against the $1K + models. I admire their beauty and detail and if I were wealthy would get a bunch)

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WOuld be interesting to see if anyone could make a quality set for $99 and retail it at Wal-Mart with mass production. I spoke w/Walmart and other store owners and asked why they don't have trains and they said there were lots of returns. But that's b/c of all the difficulties with cheap HO sets.

IMO, a quality O scale 3-rail set (or even 2-rail O or S scale) for $99 or less would get a lot more people into the hobby and there'd be lots less frustration with the trains like the cheap HO kind they sell.

[pbjwilson]

I call myself a bottom feeder when it comes to trains. I look for the well used, slightly abused toy trains. The local hobby shop has a been with "junk" track and parts. Always seem to find something good in there.

As for cheap intro sets- A couple years ago I bought the Area 51 set for my kids from Charles Roe. $150 and came with operating and illuminated rolling stock. I think Lionel does a good job with keeping the price down on their inro sets.

[brianel027]

Well I agree Dave, but it's important to discern whether we are talking list price or discount price. Most of the prices you listed above are discounted prices and not list, although certainly all above engines have reasonable list prices not far above what you quoted.

Although by far the winner for poor quality is the all-plastic single motored Lionel RS-3. It may be on the affordable side, but I consider the engine a big booby trap that will ultimately not keep poeple interested in the hobby due to it's exceptionally poor pulling ability and inferior construction. I'd recommend the Williams Centercab or the RMT Beep over the Lionel current RS-3 in a snap. The K-Line MP-15, Alco FA or retired S-2 switcher all beat the Lionel RS-3 by a long shot.

Much of this is really a matter of what the market will stand for and whether the various companies can (will) price the product accordingly. I've long felt and still feel that the drive for new up-to-date scale product and feature development is costing the companies a great deal of money. Therefore the "lower-end" products are often cheapened to the point of being just acceptable.

Lionel has offered unpainted translucent all-plastic locos with no reverse units and small die cast steamers with no reverse units or trailing trucks in train sets over the past few years. I think Lionel knows better, but the bean counters won on the features included with those items. Too bad the customers who bought those items lost.

Other examples:
-Once dual motored units from Lionel being downgraded to single motored locos.
-Sheet metal frames from Lionel being replaced with cheap thin plastic ones. Lionel could take a lesson from Inudstrial Rail products which also had plastic frames, but were more substantial in quality.
-K-Line downgraded the dual A-A Alco FA units from 4 motors to just 2 motors in the lead unit.
-K-Line downgraded the diecast front coupler on the Alco FA back to being plastic.

Since all the products are made overseas, and many in the same location, it is certainly a matter of cost and profitability playing into the companies decisions on where to price product. The RMT Beep is $60 MSRP versus the Lionel single motored RS-3 for $85. Take the similar level K-Line GP-9 with plastic frame, couplers, trucks and single motor for $60... $25 less than the Lionel engine.

Or Williams locos which feature bigger motors, die cast couplers and trucks, sheetmetal frames etc: Centercab for $130, GP-9 for $160. Compare the Lionel current Lionel GP-38 for $210 versus the new MTH Rugged Rails SD90-MAC for $180. I'll take the Rugged Rails loco on that one: bigger motors, better construction and a horn and bell, all in a modern looking engine than runs on 027 track.

I could could on, but the companies will do as they want. Lionel is still the name that draws people into the hobby or at least gets them thinking about trains again. Lionel should be taking the unquestionable lead especially with these affordable end products that are the ones that get folks started with trains. It's unfortunate that even with the recent improvements in Lionel affordable end products, that many of the competitors products are still better quality and priced lower.

The only exception here is with Lionel starter sets, where the quality levels of many of the diesels are better in the sets than they are for the separate sale locos... all the starter diesels except the RS-3 come with dual motors. Though in steam engines, Lionel does have the exceptionally nice new 0-6-0 Docksider for $105 and the new 0-4-0 for $160. These are both better values than many of the comparison level Lionel starter diesels.

Though I will note Lionel has some problems with the catalog department. The last U36B and RS3 I personally held in my hands (Conrail and black Santa Fe) both came with single motors as cataloged. The ONLY reason I did not buy that Conrail U36B loco several years ago was that it had only ONE motor and adding the second motorized truck would have set me back another $40 easily. The later released Ontario-Northland RS-3, the WP U36B and the new CSX U36B all come with dual motors though they are cataloged as having only one single motor.

[ChiefEagles]

I have some big stuff now but bought LN used. From now own, I'm waiting for things to come out on the used market and buy a lot cheaper. My next project is to find LN to VG PS1 stuff and convert to TMCC. Found a CN just like the new Primier one in new MTH catalog. It is PS1 and I can comvert and save about half the price of the new PS2. Saves you a bunch of $$$$ if you want command. On top of that, if I pre-ordered, I'd be waiting just like I have for two MTH's I pre-ordered over a year ago when I first got back into the hobby. Been holding funds to pay for them [as they were to come last Sept.] when I could have used those funds to buy lots of things. [:(!][banghead][soapbox]

[FJ and G]

Brian,

Excellent points! All valid, IMO. But right now, Lionel and MTH are making the bulk of their $$$ off the big spenders and high-end models. I think there's definitely a market for the inexpensive sets and individual pieces, if only they could get them on the shelves of Home Depot and Wal-Mart. But as you mentioned, the 1 motored no pull, no reverse units are the ones that make it there. Not a way to spread the business, IMO.

YOu should be going for the low-end mass consumer as well as the high end market. That IMO makes better business sense. Too bad the execs don't post here and weigh in on the debate, as they may have some valid reasons I'm overlooking.

Chief,

I'm contantly amazed at all the old 5+ years PS-1 locomotives still in ads and on hobby shop shelves; and the price has not really declined that much. Apparently, unlike any other dealers in other merchandise, the store owners are content to let them gather dust rather than take a price hit.

[ChiefEagles]

You are right about the dealers but individuals have begin to realize they can not move them at the higher prices. Keep your eye on the OGR Buy and Sale page.

[Dr. John]

I certainly lile locos under $140.00. That describes 90% of my locomotive collection. The only "high end" loco I have is a K-Line collectors club version of the PRR A-5 switcher with TMCC. Everything else is Williams, used, Post-war Lionel, or K-Line. I have purchased a couple of MTH engines with PS-1 used and paid under $100 each.

While I also like and admire the $1,000+ locos, I will never purchase one. I don't have that kind of money to spend on the hobby, and even if I did, I still would look for the older, or less expensive engines. To me, the hobby is more about ease of use and repair and using my imagination. I don't need to spend a fortune to have fun!

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'll always take em as cheap as I can get em, but I need TMCC. I have a bunch of conventional engines that I could retrofit for about $80 a pop. I'm always watching Ebay for bargains, and have picked up a bunch for around $250. Since I'm not into steam, $1000 plus engines aren't even on my radar. I'll take 4 diesels over 1 steam engine any day.

[brianel027]

I like your attitude Dr. John. I've often said the same thing, that even if I had the money, train engines that cost so much would still be of no interest to me. On top of that, being out of work as long as I have, and knowing so many others in the same boat... if I had a grand to spend on a train engine, then I figure I would really have $900 to give to charity or the poor. Despite my rantings here on the Forum, my priorities have changed greatly in the past couple years. Trains are fun, but they are not the reason for life.

As I've said before, the advances in the hobby are great. People have obviously entered the hobby because of the new features. And for those who can afford it, or choose to afford it, great. But many more people might enter the hobby if the technology was practical, quality mattered and the trains were priced to appeal to families with children.

I find it somewhat amusing that Neil Young, who has made such a contribution to the digital control of trains today, is such a diehard devotee to older technology when it comes to making his records. There are plenty of artists who would never understand why Neil chooses to overlook so many of the technology advances in the recording industry. I'm not knocking Neil, and I understand the motivation behind his contributions to the advanced features in todays trains. But just as there are artists who don't want to make recordings the way Neil does, there are also folks who don't want to run trains that cost hundreds of dollars each with the latest electronic features. Some folks, either by choice or necessity, want more affordable trains with fewer features - and this is the segment of the market that has been overlooked the most in the past 10+ years.

The more, the merrier. The variety in the train business is unsurpassed today. But while the variety and choices are greater, the affordable end of most train product lines have taken a back seat in the caboose to the more expensive items.

Yes, there are some decent lower end items... I know that. But when you compare the amount of new tooling and product development from the high end to the low end, there has been scant nothing on the affordable end. Lionel has not tooled or developed not one new diesel engine on the affordable end in decades. And only in the past year have we seen some quality steam engines that do an effective job at pleases a wide spectrum of train buyers.

And as far as train cars, I think there are a lot from Lionel (like that post war reissues) that are priced less based on what they cost to be made, and much more on limiting the fall of prices on their original counterparts. For example, many of the postwar reissues have list prices of nearly $60 each. Then months down the road, you see them advertised from select dealers at over half off list.

I often wonder, had these trains been priced more reasonably in the first place, if more of them wouldn't have been sold, thus eliminating the need to blowout overstocks.

[dougdagrump]

Like many of you my most of my loco's, diesel and steam, are used. The exceptions being ones that I might find as a "Dealer Blowout" and generally it has to be one hell of a blowout. The same goes for about 60% to 70% of my rolling stock. [^]

[tmcc man]

i like to buy some of those engines, and i have the lionel southern RS3, and i only put one car on it, which is a lionel gondola, i really only put it on when little kids are over, and for what i run with it,it works well[:D][:D][:D]

[tmcc man]

i forgot to mention that i also have tmcc and i do buy the more expensive engines, an i already have the lionel lehigh valley C420, and i plan to add a D&H RS11 if i can find one

[nitroboy]

Beeps and Williams. Thats all I buy these days unless its a post-war junker I can fix up.

[Buckeye Riveter]

I am really thinking that buying Williams and then doing a conversion is the way to go. You get a really good engine that can pull stumps using TMCC.

I have always wondered why O Gauge did not have an Athern type company providing products. Is there some history that I'm not aware of?

[brianel027]

tmcc man, I'm not picking on you, but I loved your comment:
"i have the lionel southern RS3, and i only put one car on it, which is a lionel gondola, i really only put it on when little kids are over, and for what i run with it,it works well."

I'd love to make that commercial for Lionel with a little kid exclaiming "Wow, Dad, look! That engine is strong enough to pull one single car!!"

I'm certain though that most folks that are buying those RS-3 plastic framed, single motored diesels are planning on pulling more than one single gondola. And there lies the problem... it'll pull a few cars on a simple oval. But starting adding switches and crossovers with a few more cars (nevermind even the slightest grade), and you start having problems. Maybe that's why (?) those RS-3 sets came with 3 cars total.

In my mind it would be like buying a fully loaded control engine, finding out it's defective, but then saying, "but it runs just fine when run traditionally by the transformer."

Lionel has made some cheap locos over the years, even during the postwar years. But during those days, Lionel was more more well known than it is today. The product is in part today, part of the advertising. Good products are good advertising... bad products are not.

When you actually call Lionel and hear their messages, they talk a lot about the great grand history of Lionel: Hudons, Trainmasters, F-3's etc. People really do STILL equate Lionel with die cast rugged quality (despite the postwar low end stuff and bare basic MPC sets). Lionel capitalizes on this history also. Which is fine. But given the price points of the other companies, I think it is a utter shame for that RS-3 to not have dual motors and some additional weight - even at the current price point of the RS-3.

Some companies live off their names, and others off their products. It's too bad that if you are in the market for basic trains, that Williams actually makes better quality, better priced copies of Lionel trains than Lionel actually currently makes them. Which is why you hear more and more positive comments about Williams products.

[pbjwilson]

Speaking of name recognition and capitalizing on hisory, I was at Toys R us buying a bike for my son. I overheard someone say " oh, that's a Schwinn. That's the best quality bike made". Well, the Schwinn plant in Chicago has been gone for years, and I don't know who's making their bikes these days, but Schwinn and all the other brands we knew as kids are all made in China.
But to this day people still think of Schwinn as the best bike money can buy.
Much like Lionel the name lives on and retains its mystique as the "best".

[Anonymous]

I haven't purchased an O gauge locomotive for more than $150 in some time now. I believe the most recent purchase that cost more than that was the Lionel Christmas Berkshire w/RailSounds. Everything else before and since over the past couple of years has been BEEPs, Plymouths, Lionel Docksider, and several Williams locomotives. Next up will be the K-Line Porter. In my opinion, one does not have to have expensive and big locomotives to thoroughly enjoy this hobby and to take full advantage of its potential. Truth is, the smaller and less expensive locomotives are often a whole lot more trouble free, reliable, and durable.

[cnw1995]

I second these posts. I find myself in a season of life that can't afford more expensive engines or frankly paying more than $25 for a freight car, though I still cheer on those that can afford the biggies - and follow their discussions about chuff rates and rivet detail with interest.

[ChiefEagles]

I do a lot like Doug. I buy a lot of cars that are on sale or not the top of the line. If they have plastic trucks and are light, I add weight. I have a SW2 that will pull 15 hopper cars loaded with coal. Added weight. Older UBoats, added weight. Be surprised how well a weighted cheap engine will pull.

[Frank53]

while it was more than $140, I just picked this up for $200.00. Nice thing about it, if it doesn't work - it ain't tough to fix.

[Anonymous]

My new Lionel RS-3 runs next to my 15 year old Williams brass K4. It pulls 5 cars just fine, and works fine switching on my FasTrack manual. At "dealer" $67., it would make a great "starter set", along with some $20. cars and a used transformer. In PRR markings, it's not bad looking ( MUCH better that it appears in '05 catalog). Joe

[brianel027]

joe (or anyone else who knows), does your new PRR RS-3 have one or two motorized trucks? I'm sure it looks nice... I think the paint jobs on some of the affordable end Lionel products have gotten much better. But the loco is cataloged as having one motor. Some others that said the same, actually have two.

I think you're going to find that if it only has the single motor, that as is (being as light as that loco is in weight), it will pull 5-6 cars... maybe a couple more if they are light with plastic trucks and fast angle wheels.

Also $67 is a darn good price if you got that from a local small dealer. I suspect though you got it mailorder or from someone bigger. At $85 list, you won't see it in small dealer shops for less than $77... they just don't get the margins to do much better.

[jwse30]

All but two of my engines were under $140. Oddly enough, one of the ones that cost more is an RS-3 (UP paint, from about 15 years ago). Most of my postwar steamers cost less than the Trainsounds tender I recently bought to run with them.

I was buying "junker" postwar and fixing them up, but now I think I've got one of each type of steam (except a berk, and a 773; I doubt either of those will turn up in the junk bins). The only one I may find someday is a 2034. I may have to buy another 675-2025-2035, and try that paint job out that was in the last CTT.

J White

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brianel027

joe (or anyone else who knows), does your new PRR RS-3 have one or two motorized trucks?
I think you're going to find that if it only has the single motor, that as is (being as light as that loco is in weight), it will pull 5-6 cars

Also $67 is a darn good price if you got that from a local small dealer.
.

It has one motor, and 5 or 6 cars is max. for my small layout (don't want it chasing its caboose). Got it at Nicholas Smith Trains, which is a 20 minute drive from my home (lucky me, especially since they carry the full Arttista line of figures). Joe

[poppyl]

You gotta love the BEEPs, particularly if you drop the TA module in. I also have several "cheap" conventional engines that my grandchildren run. If something happens to one of them as a result, I'm not out a lot of money one way or the other. The kids care about price -- they just want to see them run fast.

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jwse30

All but two of my engines were under $140. Oddly enough, one of the ones that cost more is an RS-3 (UP paint, from about 15 years ago). Most of my postwar steamers cost less than the Trainsounds tender I recently bought to run with them.

I was buying "junker" postwar and fixing them up, but now I think I've got one of each type of steam (except a berk, and a 773; I doubt either of those will turn up in the junk bins). The only one I may find someday is a 2034. I may have to buy another 675-2025-2035, and try that paint job out that was in the last CTT.

J White

I have a 2034 and a 2025, and like you, I decided to purchase a tender with modern electronics, but I opted for the new post-war 773 tender that's coming out in July. It only has a whistle, but I like the styling better than railsound/trainsound tenders that are offered. Ideally, I'd like a Railsounds or a whistle tender like those found on Lionel's small berkshires - with LIONEL LINES or NYC livery.

Jim

[jwse30]

I think the boxy tender looks right behind the 2055, 2037 (and 2016, 2026), and I think it would go behind the 2034 if I get one. I don't like it behind my turbine, the 2046, or the 2025.

Well, looks like we agree on the 2025 not looking good with this tender. That's better agreement than some threads [:)]

I haven't seen a catalog with the 2426 tender in it. What's the price on that? I'm sure it's got to be close to what Williams charges.

J White

[jwse30]

Frank53,

Looks like a good find. I'm McGinnis with envy. [:D]

J White

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jwse30

I think the boxy tender looks right behind the 2055, 2037 (and 2016, 2026), and I think it would go behind the 2034 if I get one. I don't like it behind my turbine, the 2046, or the 2025.

Well, looks like we agree on the 2025 not looking good with this tender. That's better agreement than some threads [:)]

I haven't seen a catalog with the 2426 tender in it. What's the price on that? I'm sure it's got to be close to what Williams charges.

J White

On page 93 of the 2005 Lionel catalog is a 773W style NYC whistle tender, part number 6-29822. It lists for $62.99, but I ordered one at my LHS and it was "only" $47.95.

It's smooth, streamlined, 4-wheeled trucks, and has a water scoop, Post War Celebration Series plaque and packaging.

I didn't know Williams sold "loose" tenders, but the one advertised with their 2056 repro has 6-wheeled trucks, if that makes any difference to you.

[jwse30]

QUOTE: I didn't know Williams sold "loose" tenders, but the one advertised with their 2056 repro has 6-wheeled trucks, if that makes any difference to you.

I don't know if they do, but a local trainstore here does, so I assumed they did.

Thanks for the info on the Lionel tender; I'll have to take a look at the catalog.

J White