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Nobody Knows the Trouble I’ve Seen….

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Posted by Leverettrailfan on Monday, May 16, 2022 8:19 PM

I am very happy to be a member of the unofficial "681 Owner's Club", thank you for the warm welcome! Big Smile
The seller definitely recognized it needed fixing, but wasn't someone who worked with trains. Condition was certainly no small factor in the price!

I have a 2353 A-A set that some- perhaps many would consider in poor enough cosmetic condition to restore guilt-free, but I've felt very happy to keep them original. Do they look flawless? No, there's lots of chipped and worn paint, and scrapes along the sides (not just the fuel tank) that make me quite certain they were run on 027 track- I suspect marx manual switches might be the culprit for the scrapes along the sides of the shell. They certainly are far from mint. But I enjoy them a lot in their original paint, even with all the flaws. I think I might actually enjoy them less if I repainted them, the played-with look has grown on me and I find it really charming. It's not wrong to restore, I just enjoy the look of a well-loved train I guess!

As for the 681... this is what we're working with:

The worn paint isn't what worries me, it's the white & brown deposits all over the loco and especially the tender. I'm suspecting this was last stored in a basement, and there's some moisture damage. I just hope that it doesn't reek of mold, that would be my worst nightmare. I have a Marx set that does (given to me for free) which I've been putting off doing anything with for that exact reason...
But for what I paid for it? Aside from poking around around flea markets and yard sales, I think you'd be very hard-pressed to do better for the money.

Aside from the cosmetic flaws, there is the matter of the 2671w missing both pickup roller assemblies and one of the flanged wheelsets, but this is less worrisome to me. I can find a spare wheelset kicking around, and I can run a "hot" wire from the locomotive's pickups to the tender, with a quick disconnect jack between loco and tender. Eventually the roller assemblies can be replaced.

Thanks so much for the invitation to ask for tips and advice, I may take you up on that. I have my trusty Greenburg Lionel Service Manual reprint to guide me some of the way, we'll see how things go. I did a little preliminary research, and noted that there can be problems caused by excess lateral play in the geared axle. How common is this, and are there ways to fix it without pulling and re-installing the wheels? Hopefully I don't have that issue, but if I do I'd rather not have to mail it off to someone else to get the problem fixed (unfortuntately I just don't have the budget for a press and a set of wheel cups).

I can't wait to eventually graduate from the "681 Owner's Club" to the "681 Owner and Operator's Club"

-Ellie

"Unless bought from a known and trusted dealer who can vouch otherwise, assume every train for sale requires servicing before use"

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Posted by Swiss-Colorado-Lines on Monday, May 16, 2022 3:25 PM

Welcome to the 681 club! This is most exciting! We'll help you if you have any questions.

Like Flint says, performance is everything, much more than the exterior. This probably kept the price down.

Congrats!

Paul

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, May 16, 2022 11:34 AM

Well congratulations Ellie!  Look, as long as it runs (or you can get it to run) that's all that matters, if it looks nasty there's nothing wrong with a repaint, both the engine or the tender.  And you won't be killing any resale value either, with a nasty exterior it's lost its collector value anyway, which is why you got it for the price you did.

I used Tamiya spray paints for a 2065 repaint and got excellent results. 

PS:  Can you show us a picture?

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Posted by Leverettrailfan on Monday, May 16, 2022 10:33 AM

Alright Paul & Wayne... I've got you to blame for this... I went looking for a 681 online and I found one, I was able to get it for a far better price than I ever hoped! But there's a catch, which I accepted. It looks bad. I've seen worse looking engines, but it definitely looks to be in a sorry state in the photos. I'm expecting that I have a lot of work cut out for me, so any savings in the initial purchase will likely get cancelled out by what I need to do to get it back in shape. But it does have the attractive 2671 tender. Which looks far worse than the 681 does! I'm probably going to leave them both as original as possible, even with the cosmetic faults.

Anyhow, I consider you both responsible for inspiring all of this so thank you and wish me luck, I will direct all complaints from my family (you bought another broken train??) your way Laugh

-Ellie

"Unless bought from a known and trusted dealer who can vouch otherwise, assume every train for sale requires servicing before use"

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Posted by pennytrains on Sunday, May 15, 2022 6:18 PM

Thanks!  Big Smile

The problem is the loco wants to climb on my dogbone reverse curves.  It has a single traction tire that needs replacing.  There is room in the shell to add ballast, but I suspect I'd need quite a few ounces.  Maybe even 16.  I don't know if there will be any room at all to get the weight centered over the drivers which is what I need.  I'll figure it out.  My MTH (Proto ZeroWink) N&W 0-8-0 is doing the honors right now.

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by Swiss-Colorado-Lines on Sunday, May 15, 2022 3:27 PM

N&W and the Pennsy experimented with ways to keep using steam, long after " the writing was on the wall". NKP was very successful with their Berks. It's an interesting case study....

Nice kitbash ('bash). We bash a lot in G....

Fun to make something unique in your own hands!

Paul

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, May 15, 2022 12:49 PM

pennytrains
Thanks!  I took N&W's real 1100 and ran with it.  Also known as the M2 Automatic

I thought there was something vaguely familiar about it!  The M2 Automatic!  That's a fantastic custom job!  

Too light to hold the rail?  Is there room under the shell to add some weight?  Here's a video from dagryffynhobby where Dave adds some weight to a diesel as an experiment and tells what the weights are.  The whole video's interesting but the weight part starts at 9:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4XBsx9A7Fg  

Dave's got a fun channel worth watching!

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Posted by pennytrains on Sunday, May 15, 2022 12:25 PM

Thanks!  I took N&W's real 1100 and ran with it.  Also known as the M2 Automatic, this was a late hour attempt to keep steam up and ward off diesel switchers.  They were trying to match the diesel's availability and lower maintenance costs but with a lower initial investment.

What they created were the Automatics.  A turbine driven air fan, enhanced safety valves, a longer combustion chamber, Hennesey lubricators and a tender that could hold 2 days worth of coal to feed a low speed stoker let these locomotives operate for hours at full steam unattended.

I went the next step and added streamlined skirting answering the question of what an M2 would have looked like had it received N&W passenger Loco streamlining.

I don't have a 4-8-0 to experiment on, so I used an inexpensive 2-4-0.  I also decided to simulate an oil tender using the standard N&W Canteen car as a guide.  The Tuscan and (not deluxe) gold stripes are glossy photo paper straps.  OH, the loco's smokestack is an upside down Lego brick!  Smile, Wink & Grin

I built this contraption years ago and decided the time was right to give it a face-lift.  But it's too light to hold the rail.  This switcher was a low priced model after all.

https://link.shutterfly.com/FlimPnls3pb

 

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, May 15, 2022 7:28 AM

pennytrains
And now for something completely different. 

Wow!  That 1100 is just so COOL!  You've got to tell us the story about that one!

Oh, my Y6b is a RailKing version, it'll run on 031 curves or I wouldn't have bought it.  I still took a hit to the wallet but I rationalized it figuring I'd probably spend that much at a big train show anyway. 

The only reason I bought it (aside from it being a Y6b) was I wanted an N&W engine to pull freight and I wasn't going to disgrace a Class J by using it as a freight hog! There's things you just don't do!

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Posted by Leverettrailfan on Saturday, May 14, 2022 9:15 PM

Flintlock- say what you will of the B&M berks... I honestly like them, but don't get me wrong, I'm not blind to the asthetics. I guess I just am amused by those massibve feedwater heaters- they do almost look a little creepy, don't they! My mind isn't made up yet, but if not for anything except ease I'll probably go B&A in the end. 

Becky, I absolutely love your 1100 and looking at it is making me think that I need to make something similar for myself. A 2-6-2 "Mini-J" seems like a fun idea- subtract an axle each from the leading, driving, and trailing wheels! Maybe I need to have a shot at reviving that spare Baldwin Disc motor I have kicking around. This forum's a dangerous place, the people here will put IDEAS in your head Laugh

-Ellie

"Unless bought from a known and trusted dealer who can vouch otherwise, assume every train for sale requires servicing before use"

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Posted by Swiss-Colorado-Lines on Saturday, May 14, 2022 6:49 PM

Ah! A compact stand- in for the 746! Problem solved ! There is a Lion Chief 2.0 NKP Berkshire. I had my eye on it when I was looking into Lion Chief. 
Paul

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Posted by pennytrains on Saturday, May 14, 2022 6:12 PM

And now for something completely different.  I present to you the answer to the question no one anywhere at any time in the history of railroading EVER asked....the 1100:

https://link.shutterfly.com/GZmnHWqe2pb

 

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by pennytrains on Saturday, May 14, 2022 5:32 PM

Wayne:

  1. The Y6b would have to be an O31 Loco so that helps a bit on price.
  2. I need (desire) a Berk that actually looks like an NKP Berk.  And yeah, that's tough to get at an affordable price.  The 6-8215 (779) Berk from 1982 is good.  It's based on the 726 and unfortunately doesn't have the number boards and bell that make Nickel Plate's Berks so recognizable.  If I remember correctly, K-Line produced a good model.
  3. Yeah, the RS-11 or a Century Series Alco wouldn't come cheap.  But I've always liked Alcos, so, I want one!  Wink
  4. The 2343 is the best because it has Magnetraction and preceded the cost cutting refinements of later locos.  Of course I need Super Speedliner cars to go with it!  Big Smile
  5. The 746 is just the best one in my opinion.  It's perfectly proportioned.
  6. The N&W Geep would be tough.  But I could substitute the 6-8266 SD-24 of 1982.
  7. The Chessie Hudson is THE Chessie Hudson.  The ones built to pinch hit for the turbines.  Yep, the yellow belly.  And the Chessie streamliner cars.  The most beautiful train that never ran.

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, May 14, 2022 9:05 AM

I think I'd go with the B&A Berk.  That Coffin feedwater heater on the B&M engine's just so damn ugly!  Give me the creeps too, and the name "Coffin" doesn't have anything to do with it.  Normally I'd say there's no such thing as an ugly steam engine but that B&M engine comes pretty close!

Maybe if you make a Halloween-theme engine out of it...

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Posted by Leverettrailfan on Friday, May 13, 2022 11:46 PM

The 746 is on my wish list too... I bet every Lionel collector wants one! I'd happily go for the MPC version but those seem barely any closer to my budget. 

I have a 2353 so the classic ATSF F3 is off my want list, but I really want an F3 in New York Central. I also want a 2378P to match my 2378C, but... ouch, they don't come cheap do they? I'm trying to reassemble an incomplete 2273W, since I found several components of it for sale at the same place, and for a price you'd never be able to beat. When I head the words "honestly I'm just trying to get rid of this stuff" I knew I was in toy train heaven. Only pieces of the consist I'm missing besides the A unit is the caboose.
Of course I'm looking for a turbine
I absolutely need to own one or both of the postwar B&M Geeps. Local road name and a favorite.
Another few big ones on my list are the New Haven MPC rectifier and the postwar 2350 EP-5. Wouldn't mind the Flyer model either naturally Laugh

I'm hunting for the HO New Haven rectifier but people want biger bucks for them on eBay than I feel like spending on em. I'm not biting, I'll keep hunting until I find one at a price I can't resist. 

Flintlock, I have half a mind to do some modifying to my already modified and repainted 736. I think it would be fun to alter it to represent either a B&M or a B&A Berkshire. The B&M locos had a very distinctive "Coffin" style feedwater heater.

only issues are a) of course my 736 still isn't workin, and b) I'd have to ruin the attractive boiler front if I wanted a prototypical headlight placement. The B&A berk is a bit closer, so it might be a better choice. But again the boiler front would have to be modified if I really wanted it to look like the prototype.


Well, I have all the time in the world to decide!

-Ellie

"Unless bought from a known and trusted dealer who can vouch otherwise, assume every train for sale requires servicing before use"

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, May 13, 2022 7:39 PM

pennytrains
Here's my O Gauge wish list in no particular order: N&W Y6b NKP Berkshire Alco RS11 (road name tbd) Santa Fe F3 ABA (Lionel 2343) N&W J (Lionel 746) N&W GP-9 in tuscan Chessie Hudson

Interesting list!  Let's go though it seriatim,  shall we?

N&W Y6b.  No way to get one of those cheap, trust me.  Maybe you could get lucky at a garage or estate sale.  No-one's giving them away.

NKP Berkshire.  Now there's a possibility!  There were MPC and Kughn era conventionals made and the prices are getting reasonable.  Or, you can try and find a rough shape Berkshire and "roll your own" with a repaint and re-decaling.

Alco RS-11.  No cheap way out on that one I'm aware of.

Santa Fe F3.  If it down't have to be a 2343 you can probably find some good used ones, Santa Fe's of all types seem to be pretty common, every show I go to has plenty.

N&W J 746.  Yeah, no cheap way out on that one.  Not yet anyway.

N&W GP9 in tuscan?  I haven't seen any but I haven't been looking either. Plenty of Geeps at shows though. Maybe another "roll your own?"

Chessie Hudson?  Jeez, there's Hudsons all over the place and prices are dropping unless they're "Brand new and in the box, with papers."  Another good candidate for a "roll your own."  Unless it's the "Yellowbelly," another matter entirely.

You know, I had so much fun and got so much satisfaction out of that rebuild and repaint of the 2065 I got at the last show I'm looking forward to trying it again, this time with a rough condition 736 and turning it into a Mikado.  I don't have any Mikado freight hogs, ironic since at one time Mikes were one of the most common freight engines around.  And of course a 736 is a good old conventional!

And unfortunately nobody's going back to building strictly conventional, not in the immediate future anyway.  Unless the new stuff gets so sophisticated no-one can afford it.

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Posted by Swiss-Colorado-Lines on Friday, May 13, 2022 6:47 PM

Great list! I'm hearing a lot of people asking for the same things regarding conventional control.

Technology can be a wonderful thing

....so is a choice....

On the G side, Piko is producing engines in Dcc, or standard Dc only. Yes, you Can choose!  I think this is the way forward!

Paul

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Posted by pennytrains on Friday, May 13, 2022 5:54 PM

It feels like we've been stuck in a transition era for quite a while now.  Electronics now are what the "zinc pest" was with die casting or paint adhesion was with Bakelite.  Durability is one thing and Lionel has always been the leader in my opinion.  But it's still feels like a risky and expensive proposition for those of us with shallow pockets.

Here's my O Gauge wish list in no particular order:

  1. N&W Y6b
  2. NKP Berkshire
  3. Alco RS11 (road name tbd)
  4. Santa Fe F3 ABA (Lionel 2343)
  5. N&W J (Lionel 746)
  6. N&W GP-9 in tuscan
  7. Chessie Hudson

Cars etc. I could go for days listing them but I  will say I've been wanting 2 N&W heavyweight cars; a combine and a coach.

Notice that I've listed 2 postwar locos specifically, but the rest I'd prefer conventional control only.  Electronic reverse is OK, but I'd rather someone (Lionel to be specific) to manufacture semi-scale trains with great detail, conventional control, decent smoke, magnetraction and American Flyer's "choo-choo sound".  A surprisingly effective simple mechanical device.  Wink

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by Swiss-Colorado-Lines on Friday, May 13, 2022 2:20 PM

Nothing against all the new stuff with all the bells and whistles. It is very tempting to dive in. But I enjoy fixing the trains almost as much as running them!

 And as already been mentioned, the Postwar trains, Lionel, Flyer, and Marx are a great value right now! Most parts are easily available, generally pretty simple to work on!

Having a Zen moment fixing trains.....

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, May 13, 2022 12:54 PM

Leverettrailfan
That's why I stay away from the fancy electronics- they cost big bucks and I can't repair them if they fry- and I get the impression it's not "if" they fry, but "when" they fry.

I've said it before, that's the problem with sophisticated electronics.  They can last 20, maybe 30 years or more or blow tomorrow.  You just never know.   We had brand-new copiers that blew their main boards right out of the box but thank goodness they were few and far between.  Embarassing, to say the least!  

In the copier repair business "in the field" board repairs ended almost 40 years ago, we had to send them out to specialized board repair outfits.  Just too complicated now. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, May 13, 2022 12:49 PM

Leverettrailfan
Brimfield flea market.

Brimfield!  We went there back in the early 2000's, two years in a row.  WOW!

I didn't see any train stuff I was interested in but got some other things and we had a ball.  Probably won't be going back though, I still have the energy to cover it all but the wife doesn't.  Covering all that ground is not for the weak!

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Posted by Leverettrailfan on Friday, May 13, 2022 12:31 PM

That's why I stay away from the fancy electronics- they cost big bucks and I can't repair them if they fry- and I get the impression it's not "if" they fry, but "when" they fry.

I like to do my own repairs, and I'm always eager to find new ways to fix things, and to work on things I haven't done before so I can expand my field of repair knowledge. I learn best by doing things "hands on" after all Smile, Wink & Grin

I've heard nothing but good stuff about LGB. I keep having flashbacks to when I last went to the Brimfield flea market. There was a guy selling a HEAP of LGB stuff. He only wanted $75 for everything. It was a steal and a half by any standard, rest assured. I didn't bring enough money by a long shot, because I needed to borrow cash from my dad and he didn't have much on him.
I'll never forget how that one got away from me!

-Ellie

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Posted by Swiss-Colorado-Lines on Friday, May 13, 2022 9:08 AM

I have a lot of ideas...some are better than others.....

one pipedream I had was to kitbash a Turbine looking engine in G....

of course, this never got off the ground! Many times I have tried to figure how to incorporate the Lionel trains in the garden. I have finally concluded that it would be terrible for the trains, they would absolutely choke. So,I just keep the Lionel and Flyer trains inside.

Most expensive engine? For many years it was my LGB Forney, purchased new in 1996 for the then princely sum of $500. It sounds so cheap now!I have taken to buying used LGB engines from the era before dcc.They are cheaper, and I can fix them myself( but they never break!).LGB is more expensive, but worth every penny with with so few repairs needed.

I keep toying with the idea of adding a Lion Chief loop. They have a really cute Lion Chief Plus Pennsy K4 ! I have finally decided against it because I use Postwar transformers. And, I like to do my own repairs, hence this thread !

Paul

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 12, 2022 8:51 PM

pennytrains

Here's the most expensive locomotive I ever bought.  $400 back in 95(?).  Now it's brainless and runs only on DC.  All the fancy electronics are in a zip lock bag stored away.

https://link.shutterfly.com/TTJtYlYZYpb

 

 

Yeah, been there done that.  In my case it was an MTH Y6b, bought it used for around $600 and the board package blew due to a pinched wire, apparantly waiting for years to strike.  I wasn't going to spend another $275 for a replacement board package, no way.  So, I ordered a 12 amp electronic E-unit from Dallee Electronics, easy install and it brought the engine back to life.  I had to do some re-wiring to get the smoke unit working and had to install a Williams whistle and bell unit in the tender after making a pick-up assembly. Good runner now.

I'm not buying any more mega-bucks engines unless I can "steal" them. I've got all the prototypically correct models I want even though I know anywhere from 50 to 75 percent of the cost I paid is in the electronics I'll never use since I run conventional.  From now on it's post-war, MPC, or early Kughn era. I can fix 'em when they break and I can customise them if I want.  

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Posted by pennytrains on Thursday, May 12, 2022 7:27 PM

Here's the most expensive locomotive I ever bought.  $400 back in 95(?).  Now it's brainless and runs only on DC.  All the fancy electronics are in a zip lock bag stored away.

https://link.shutterfly.com/TTJtYlYZYpb

 

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 12, 2022 6:52 PM

Swiss-Colorado-Lines

I like the look of the Turbines: small drivers flailing away like mad!

Cool, and unusual engine! Nothing else like it! 
Plus, my soft spot for Pennsy......

Paul

 

The Turbines were a hell of a lot more successful for Lionel than they ever were for the Pennsy!  Ironic, isn't it?

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 12, 2022 6:41 PM

Leverettrailfan
I once saw a turbine at a show for $55, no tender.

Man, at $55 that was a steal, even with no tender!  You can always find an "orphan" tender someplace. 

I can understand the hesitating too.  Typically when I go to a show I don't get anything on the first pass, I want to see what else is there before the wallet comes out.

Unless  I run into something I know  someone else isn't going to have, but that's only happened once.  It was a limited run Lionel trolley with "Bergen County Traction Company" markings that I never  expected to see in Virginia and it was on the first table I came to.  No "second pass" for that one, I wasn't taking any chances!  No, I didn't rip my pants getting the wallet out!  

One of these.

https://www.trainz.com/collections/train-eras/products/lionel-6-58238-o-gauge-bergen-county-palisades-trolley-2015-tca-car-ex-box?variant=39745945960570

The seller only wanted $75 for it, another reason I didn't hesistate.

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Posted by Leverettrailfan on Thursday, May 12, 2022 5:29 PM

I'll be honest, I think that was the first or second time I'd ever seen something postwar that had been stricken with zinc pest. Lionel definitely had good quality control in the postwar era, and it shows! Frankly the fact you've never seen a pw with zinc pest sounds like a fantastic thing. I hope I don't see another!!

I once saw a turbine at a show for $55, no tender. It looked to be in good shape. I made the mistake of hesistating, it was gone in the 10-15 minutes between when I spotted it and when I had my wallet ready. Wasn't even close to when the show had started! If I get a do-over, I won't make the same mistake twice, that's for sure.

"Unless bought from a known and trusted dealer who can vouch otherwise, assume every train for sale requires servicing before use"

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Posted by Swiss-Colorado-Lines on Thursday, May 12, 2022 5:26 PM

I like the look of the Turbines: small drivers flailing away like mad!

Cool, and unusual engine! Nothing else like it! 
Plus, my soft spot for Pennsy......

Paul

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, May 12, 2022 1:59 PM

Leverettrailfan
$185 is way out of my price range, Flintlock-

Yeah, it is what it is, I can understand.  Back in the 90's they were going for anywhere from $275 to $375 depending on condition.  Since the "Post-War Boom" for lack of a better term is pretty much over they've gotten more reasonable.  I would have had hard time dropping that kind of money on a 681 myself! 

Post-wars are getting very resonable now.  OK, there's guys displaying at shows who haven't gotten the word yet and are still trying to get 90's prices on them but they're the exception.

OK, if you've seen zinc pest on a post-war I won't argue the point, just because I've never seen it certainly doesn't mean it's never happened.  I suppose there's always some that slip through the cracks no matter how good quality control is.

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