Alrighty folks... update on the 681 project.The news is...I haven't done anything to the 681 since the last mention of it.What I did do, is work on the 2671w tender. It looked horrible on the outside, but I have to say that inside, it was honestly in quite good shape. The relay didn't need any work whatsoever. I did do some cleaning to the whistle mechanism but it didn't need much more than a dusting off, cleaning up the commutator, and oiling it. I need to do more testing but using the MTH Z750 I briefly hooked it up this evening, and it seemed to work flawlessly. I didn't have the time to do more than give it a couple blasts, so tomorrow I'll likely play around with it more at some point.
There really wasn't much I could do for the shell- it still looks awful after a gentle hand-washing in the sink with some dish soap, maybe a little worse since that took away a little bit of the lettering. There's still some sort of weird gunk in a few spots, but at this point if I tried to get that off I'd just ruin what's left of the lettering and take off more paint. It might all be imperfections from when it was repainted by a previous owner. The tender is already covered in scuffs and scratches, with a significant chunk of plastic broken off the front skirting, and a few hairline cracks on both ends, so I'm not really concerned I hurt the value. Nobody is gonna want that shell, no matter if it was before or after I cleaned the dust and rust off it. I'll keep an eye out next time I attend a show, for a better shell to swap in.
Now, thankfully the chassis is another story. The chassis itself doesn't have perfect paint, but it's good enough that I don't think it's in any need of a repaint. The trucks cleaned up great! Aside from the broken side frame on the rear truck, they really look fantastic now. Not mint or anything, but they look clean and cared for once again. I found a good wheelset in a parts drawer and installed it in place of the missing one on the rear truck. All the wheels and axles got a good cleaning, I removed most all the rust, and where it took out the chemical blackening on the axles I used a sharpie to re-blacken em. Gently wiped with a paper towel after using the sharpie to try and reduce the shine and make it a little less dark. They turned out looking very good. I discovered the middle axle on the rear truck was homemade. It works ok so I reinstalled it, but maybe eventually I'll decide to swap it for a genuine one.
The electro-coupler wouldn't open, the knuckle spring lost all its tension. I somehow managed to loose the plunger spring when I opened it up, so I modified a repro 1661E-30 brush spring (made it shorter) and used that. Works flawlessly! Not sure yet how I'll set the coupler up so it can be operated, but I did want to get it working while I had the truck apart.
back to the whistle mechanism... I don't think I can get the armature to spin any freer than it does, but it seems pretty darn good. Not a lot of undesirable play to be had, I suspect it wasn't used much. The oil wasn't really feeding the brush plate bearing from the wick very well so even after oiling the wick and adding a single drop to the brush plate bearing, I had to go back and add a few drops of Labelle 108 directly to the top of the armature shaft before it stopped "squealing". Wish Lionel gave it a real bearing there, instead of just putting a hole through the fibre brush plate and calling it good enough. I think I have a prewar unit or two where there is a real bronze bearing in the brush plate. Again, the relay was in great shape, and didn't need anything. It was all good to go!
Soon enough, I'll be onto the engine. I anticipate the week is going to be busy at first, so depending, the 681 may not be getting attention until Wednesday or Thursday. I'm very eager to get it running, of course, but the lawn needs mowing, and who knows what else. Rest assured, it will be back in action in due course.-Ellie
"Unless bought from a known and trusted dealer who can vouch otherwise, assume every train for sale requires servicing before use"
I remember reading that article once I think but I've forgotten all about it, so I'll have to re-read. I did read somewhere about Hennings aquiring MEW, I have no doubt the quality is good. Honest to goodness never heard a bad word about reproduction wheels besides Becky's battery loco. My takeaway is "don't get battery acid on zamac".-Ellie
Best o' luck with your "new" 681 Elllie!
By the way, I got curious and looked up MEW, or Model Engineering Works. Interesting story!
Anyway, Henning's owns them now, so don't worry about anything MEW if it's coming from Harry and Bill!
Here's the MEW story:
http://www.tcawestern.org/mew.htm#:~:text=Model%20Engineering%20Works%20was%20a,'%20and%20standard%2Fwide%20gauge.
Great! It sounds like it should be repairable with a little elbow grease, and a 'round tuit.....
Paul
Wow, so even MEW wheels go bad? Or do you need to add battery acid to make it happen? I have an 8E with MEW wheels, but no battery acid, and they seem to be doing great. The loco itself has been a problematic thing, which I'll eventually sort out.I have news to report! The 681 arrived today, and it was very nicely packed. No shipping damage to speak of, thank goodness.The cosmetic appearence of the loco and tender is much better in person. Hardly mint, but a lot of those weird patches of "stuff" in the listing photos must have been a trick of the lighting because I can't see anything on the paint beside scuffing and scratching and dust- nothing smells either. In the end, nothing to worry about.When I first checked out the locomotive, I was very alarmed to find that the wheels turned freely. Too freely. Turns out, the motor was barely screwed down! Side to side play on the drive axle seems to be well within limits. The loco wouldn't run, but opening it up revealed that someone had disconnected all the wiring between the motor and the E-Unit, as well as disconnecting the "hot" from the E-Unit. The motor fired right up using some test leads though, so I'm really not sure what the story is with that. The smoke unit doesn't smoke (or heat up), so I need to do something about that.The loco has definitely been messed about with before, I found a spring washer on the front shell screw where it defintiely doesn't belong, the screw for the lead pilot truck is not original and is preventing the front truck from resting on the track correctly. The drawbar is not original, a new home-made drawbar was soldered to part of the original- It scrapes the chassis a lot so I think I'm going to need to do some filing to improve that, but otherwise I think it's fine.
Looking at the 2671w tender, the 'tape stripe' around the lettering is no longer a mystery- I can feel a difference in paint thickness between the 'masked off' lettering portion, and the rest of the paint. so the tender has certainly been repainted. I think I may keep an eye out for another, original tender shell to swap on. Until then, the one it has is just fine, though I will be cleaning it up as best I can.The locomotive does appear to retain its original paint, and it's not too badly chipped, so it's going to stay all orignal. I will of course be doing a careful cleaning.I haven't opened up the tender, but I may have a look tomorrow.That's all to report for now- I'll try and take some pictures next time. Feeling pretty good about this project though, I don't think that the 681 needs anything outside of my skillset or available tools.-Ellie
I've got a bit of a wobble on some, but not all of my post-wars, at least until the trains get up to speed and settle in.
I've inspected wheels and bearings and they all look good. Then I got a good grip on one and rocked it side-to-side and noticed a bit of play. What I think is going on is the MTH RealTrack I run on is slightly wider in gauge than the post-war track used to be. None of my MTH engines or late production Lionels have a wobble. OK, it's not critical and I can live with it. Ballasting one of the engines took care of most of the wobble as well.
Yeah. I found evidence (modern wire, M.E.W. wheels) to show that someone had gone through the effort of restoring this No. 8 once before. And then they let acid leak all over it.
The swollen wheels were how I found out. When I pulled the shell I saw a bit of "something" on the inside of one of the brass inserts but didn't think much of it. It wasn't until I started removing, well, mutilating would be a better word, the wheels that I noticed the etching on the motor frame. That's when I decided to pull the inserts and discovered the crystals between them and the shell.
She runs but she wobbles a bit. Probably from damage done to the axle bearings.
Same me, different spelling!
I have a guess- maybe someone put a battery inside the engine, thinking it would make a nice weight to increase traction. Especially if it were someone younger who didn't know the dangers of old batteries leaking, then it would seem like a great idea. Of course, as an adult, the idea of leaving a battery in any electronic device long term and then forgetting about it is a very bad idea.The other, weirder theory I can think of is that someone was trying to give the thing constant lighting, using a battery instead of the track power to illuminate the headlights.The lack of a battery from which the damage originated probably means someone went in there in the past, found the mess inside, and opted to throw out the battery but weren't feeling brave enough to fix the damage.This is the one you repainted in that pretty blue, right? With the operating pantograph and everything?-Ellie
Holy what the...
HOW did anyone get battery acid on the INSIDE?
On the outside I could understand, but the inside?
This calls for a musical interlude...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLRCFyLtu7M
I had a "sneaky" basket case awhile back. It looked good, but when I got inside I realized someone had let battery acid leak all over it.
https://link.shutterfly.com/w3NoUiuR8pb
Oh good, I have a 736 and I remember what's in there. I'll definitely check out that video though.I know my way around a very thorough clean & lube, and I know how to service an E-Unit, including replacing drums and contact fingers, and I know the practice of rebuilding an SP pellet type smoke unit (though I have yet to buy any kits or parts to allow me to do it!). In theory, I have all the basic knowledge to get me through a locomotive of the era, so long as there are no "unusual circumstances". I'll have to tell you all more about what my 736 looked like 'under the hood' when I got it... just because it's an interesting story. The short version is... not stock! Longer version is that when it arrived, first I realized there was no E-Unit Lever sticking out the top of the shell, and there was a switch located in the cab. There were capacitors soldered to the brush holders too.When I got it all apart, I found that inside, it had been given a custom aluminum bracket that held an electronic reversing board. A micro switch had been added that was closed every time the smoke lever went up. My best guess is that in the late '80s or the '90s someone decided to convert the engine. The switch in the cab I presume was the new reverse unit "cut out" switch, the micro switch on the smoke pistion I bet ran to something like a sound of steam board. Unfortunately the reversing board was toast so I converted it back to using a mechanical E-Unit, but retained the switch in the cab to control it instead of re-opening the E-Unit lever slot in the boiler. The smoke box door was sealed shut with some sort of filling putty, I imagine to keep light from leaking through, I spent some time hacking it all out so the door could open again. I replaced the old springy metal latch with some Neodymium magnets which do a great job of keeping it shut. I was planning to replace the bulb with an LED but I forget if I did.I haven't messed with it since the screw for the trailing truck snapped, been avoiding sorting out the procedure of removing the stuck half of the screw. The motor never worked right, it was always very noisy and poor running in forward- sometimes bad in reverse too. Eventually I tried replacing the bearings, feeling that excess play and worn bearings in the motor were at fault, but that didn't solve the issue. Hopefully this whole 681 project goes much better than that.-Ellie
Ellie, when your 681 shows up this may be a help to you. It's actually a maintanance video on the 736 Berkshire but the 681 and the Berk are pretty much the same under the hood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=676zJOiylaM
Dave's got some pretty good "how to" videos on post-war maintanance worth watching. Here's the channel.
https://www.youtube.com/c/dagryffynhobby/featured
Swiss-Colorado-Lines I have a theory that it may be intentional to lighten the shade slightly of models because they are intended to be viewed in dim indoor lighting....
Years and years ago when I did a lot of plastic modeling (WW1 aviation) I read in a hobby magazine that sometimes, if not most times, the ACTUAL color of the original may not look "right" on a model. Strange, but true.
When I was doing my remodel of a Lionel 2065 into the Jersey Central Pacific #834 the original color was called "Nile Green." Well "Nile Green" wasn't on any 1920's color charts I was able to find. Current color charts don't agree on "Nile Green." Other contemporary descriptions said the engine was "olive" or "dark olive." No help either.
So I took a SWAG and went with Tamiya "Olive Drab 2." You know what? It looks good and I'm happy.
So now I'm not surprised there's variations in color from different manufacturers like Lionel, MTH, and others. They probably have to take a SWAG too!
I have thought about what I'll do if I decide a repaint is neccesary. I do think it would be entertaining to paint it in a more prototypical livery than all black, but I'm undecided. Really, it will be a last resort if I can't save the original.
I do have a history of taking on 'basket cases'. They don't always get done on schedule, sometimes they sit around for weeks, months, or years before I make progress on them or complete them. For example, I think at least a few years ago is when I got my 97 Coal Elevator with a collection of other trains, from the grandfather of one of my youngest brother's friends. I really want to get that thing working, but for the most part not a lot of work has been done on it yet besides tearing it down for cleaning and maintenance. I think due to the condition, I'll probably be repainting it, but my mind isn't 100% made up.So yeah- we'll see. The 681 and 2671w could be a project I power right through and finish, or it could be sidelined after a certain extent of investigation, until I'm ready to go further. It's hard to say before I've actually recieved and dug into it.-Ellie
Brunswick Green is one of the shades most manufacturers have trouble replicating, as well as PRR Tuscan, and Espee Daylight colors. Scalecoat Brunswick Green is very good,although when you go to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, the shade looks darker yet. I have a theory that it may be intentional to lighten the shade slightly of models because they are intended to be viewed in dim indoor lighting....
Swiss-Colorado-LinesIf you decide to repaint, you have a couple of choices: original Lionel black, or the authentic Pennsy " Brunswick Green", which has humorously been described as a gallon of black paint with two drops of Forrest Green....
I think Tamiya's got something close to Brunswick Green. Looking at the available colors at the local HobbyTown I saw something that looked pretty much like it. Ellie would have to investigate.
Of course if the engine's painted B-G the tender would have to be as well.
Hey, you know what? Thank goodness for THIS Forum. Ain't nuthin' goin' on on the "Trains" Forum that's interesting right now.
pennytrainsI'll get to the previous victim of my tippy chair eventually.
I see Godzilla's been there too. Stomped it good!
This poor engine has been waiting for someone with the passion and enthusiasm to give it a home. I'm glad your taking this on! It'll be great when you get it done. And this is the more desirable tender....
If you decide to repaint, you have a couple of choices: original Lionel black, or the authentic Pennsy " Brunswick Green", which has humorously been described as a gallon of black paint with two drops of Forrest Green....
I hadn't noticed the box around the Pennsy lettering either. What comes to my mind is:
And the tower is back in business with the telephone pole replaced. I'll get to the previous victim of my tippy chair eventually. Probably before Halloween.
https://link.shutterfly.com/Vvph6kTb7pb
Leverettrailfanuse a jumper from the loco to supply the tender with a "hot"
Certainly do-able, in fact Lionel did exactly that with two 1980's era engines I've got, one's a President Washington B&O Pacific and the other an 8006 ACL "Silver Shadow" Hudson.
Man, did I get "right-place, right-time" lucky with that 8006, turns out it's a rarey.
http://train-station.com/Pages/archives/Library/6-8006.html
Ah shoot Wayne, I think I misinterpreted some of what you said- the tender on my 681 is definitely painted. The white showing through is all in places you'd expect to see paint worn off. I thought you were talking about if the lettering only was paint or heat-stamp. As for the correct truck configuration, if the tender is a 2671w then it should have 6-wheel trucks. If it's the 2046w, then it should have 4 wheel trucks.Yeah, I'm mystified as to why the pickup rollers were gutted. It really makes no sense, seems like a chore- my best guess is that something broke and/or it was being operated on a layout with turnouts that the rollers got stuck in. I can't think of another good reason to go to all that trouble, so that's my theory. Depending how much money I want to spend on the project, will dictate whether I replace them or long term use a jumper from the loco to supply the tender with a "hot". As for the coil coupler... that won't be coming online without something to hold the pickup shoe... aka pickup assembly. Shouldn't be a problem though, roughly 99% of my rolling stock has magnetic couplers. I think the only exceptions are a couple 027 freight cars and my 2460 crane car. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like when Lionel switched over from coil couplers to magnetic couplers they decided not to adapt the 6 wheel trucks, dropping them altogether instead.Becky- sorry to hear the news about the tower, but glad it's coming back together. Too bad about the pole, hopefully you can make something of it!-Ellie
That tender underside looks downright strange with no pick-ups. I wonder what the story behind that is? I'm not sure if those six-wheel trucks are correct, but they might be. I'll have a look at my 681's PRR tender and let you know what it looks like, right now I can't remember if it's got six-wheel trucks or four.
A good way to find out if that tender's painted (and I suspect it is) is scrape away at the inside of the shell and see what comes up. I was sanding a black Lionel tender prior to a repaint and a mottled multi-colored plastic began to show. Obviously mine was painted. It wouldn't surprise me if yours is too, there's white showing in the worn areas, that could very well be the base plastic.
I should have mentioned mildew in addition to mold earlier, ammonia will kill mildew as well.
OK, I've looked at my 681's tender and it's got the six-wheel trucks, four flanged with two "blind" just like yours. I can't imagine what happened to your pick-up roller assemblys, on mine it looks like a real hassle to get 'em out.
I looked at the "Pennsylvania" markings on mine and for what it's worth it looks painted and not heat-stamped.
pennytrainsBut it's coming back together nicely. Can't say the same for the Plasticville marbled telephone pole that was next to it though...
Hey, you know what the Erie used to do with old, rotten telegraph poles? They'd drive a new one into the ground next to the old one, steel strap the crossbeam part to the new pole, then cut off the rotten base! Worked for them!
Thanks for the imput all!Paul, I was shocked the decal looked so good, in spite of the rest of things. Well spotted on the lettering, I didn't notice until you mentioned it but it does look an awful lot like it was protected by some tape. Odd! I highly doubt it was repainted, I wonder why. Maybe the old operator didn't like the PRR?Wayne, I'm not surprised to hear you say that. I may resort to a full restoration, it all depends on how well it survives the cleaning. Ammonia, eh? I'll give it a go, I've had mixed results using diluted bleach to kill mold on some (non train) things. You betcha I won't do it inside!Since the loco has rubber stamped lettering, I'm inclined to think the tender might be painted? I don't know, maybe someone with a collector's guidebook can advise me here. Looking at catalog illustrations (not that these are the most reliable thing to go on) and listings, the 2671w tender was depicted with the 681 in 1950 and 1951, when the 681 returned in 1953 it had a 2046w. I know 681s came both with heat stamped lettering and without, it figures the tenders did too... whether or not they matched up in production I have no clue. Thanks for the tip on the decals, hopefully I don't need 'em! All shall be told when it gets here. Back to the tender... maybe I should have just linked the listing. But here's what the tender looks like underneath.I'm not scared yet... but it's definitely looking like a chore. Again, it was the best deal I imagine I'll see for a good while for a 681 on the 'bay. That is, if I went looking. For now, one 681 is plenty for me.I'm still not sure what the guts are gonna look like, but I'm hopeful there's no rust inside the loco. Again, we'll see what we will see. Hasn't shipped out yet, still probable it'll come by Saturday I think.-Ellie
Unfortunately both he and some other menacing movie monsters didn't make the move.
But it's coming back together nicely. Can't say the same for the Plasticville marbled telephone pole that was next to it though...
https://link.shutterfly.com/aQo83W3D6pb
pennytrainsThis is what happens to an Atlas interlocking tower when a recliner goes over backwards.
You know, if you've got a Godzilla model you can put "Big G" next to that devastated tower and say it's HIS fault!
Wow.
OK Ellie, if it were mine personally I wouldn't hesistate, after getting it running again it'd be repaint time. As I said there wouldn't be any question of destroying any collector value, it ain't there anymore!
I suspect the spots and skuzz on the locomotive and tender shells might be mold in addition to dirt. The only way to kill mold reliably is with household ammonia, so after scrubbing down the shells with some water and dish detergent and a soft toothbrush to get the dirt off give it another scrubdown with ammonia, but do it outside, it's gonna stink!
The "Pennsylvania" marking on the tender is either one of two things, heat-stamp or paint. If it's paint you may loose some, if it's heat-stamp it's pretty darn durable and may survive the cleaning with no problems. You can mask the lettering and repaint around it, but obviously you won't know until after a cleaning.
If restoration decals are needed you can get them from this outfit:
http://www.lbrenterprisesllc.com They've got a pretty good selection for old Lionels.
Good luck!
It looks like it's going to be one of those days...
https://link.shutterfly.com/7NW2n8tz6pb
This is what happens to an Atlas interlocking tower
when a recliner goes over backwards.
Where's that Gorilla Glue?
Of course, always start with the basic cleaning and servicing, and see where you are after that. It just may be a very dirty engine, but you'll have to go through everything.Try to not loose the decal during cleaning.
All right, all right.... She's a little rough, but looks like the bones are good....The decal seems intact, and interestingly the hand rails and side rods are not rusted out. Seems less likely moisture, but maybe dirt. I am puzzled by the clean area on the tender where the " Pennsylvania " lettering is, almost as if a piece of tape had been over it. I see a broken wire below the tender, but this is normal everyday stuff. Hopefully, a good servicing internally, and cleaning of the exterior.
We'll keep our fingers crossed, but everything is there and intact. A lot of work, but hopefully she cleans up well .
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