Today's breakthrough is that I was working on trying to train my eye to recognize Marx HO pieces on sight... and I remembered that Model Power supposedly bought all the old Marx HO tooling. Looking into the formerly Marx boxcars, at least earlier versions seem to be constructed exactly the same, down to the same trucks, couplers and everything, with decoration and colors being the dead giveaway. Marx boxcars seem to be molded all one color, whereas for the Model Power cars, the frame is usually black- molded into the frame are the lower door guides and four locating tabs (two on each side) that hold the plastic body on the frame. Because Marx cars have the body and frame molded in the same color, this doesn't stand out, but on the model power cars, especially ones painted in light colors, the black tabs and lower door guide stand out like a sore thumb!
I don't yet own any of either, but here's some pictures I found online that show what I'm talking about quite nicely:Marx boxcar (note the two tabs and lower door guide are the same color as carbody):Model Power boxcar (note tabs and door guide are now black, not matching the body color):This doesn't really seem like a practical method to ID manufacturer, since there are more obvious ones- paint schemes and road names are probably the best, as well as looking for a marx logo (I think these cars should be branded?) on the underside of the car. It is a neat additional tell to have, though. If the frame and shell don't match in color, it's probably not original marx. I'm tempted to pick a car or two up some day, since colors aside they really do seem to be a perfect match. I imagine I could also strip model power rollingstock for parts to repair original Marx.-Ellie
"Unless bought from a known and trusted dealer who can vouch otherwise, assume every train for sale requires servicing before use"
I said I'd feature my new Marx, so here it is... late, as usual First up, the Santa Fe A-A lashup. Found these seperately in the same store. They're not the most flawless examples, but the powered unit runs quite well now. Though the motor gets rather hot after not much run time, even though it's been properly lubricated. Maybe that's just normal, it's survived since the '60s so maybe it's tougher than I think and it can take a little heat.These are the gray plastic version, apparently there's also a version molded with silver plastic. I think the gray might be more common, but I'm really just guessing.Next up, is an incomplete set- number 74642. The track is missing, and someone inserted two Mantua(?) cars in place of the Union Pacific boxcar and Cities Service tank car that should come with it. While there is a Cities Service tank car in the box, it is not of Marx manufacture. Nonetheless, present is the original box, transformer, powered Rock Island A unit, dummy B unit, Western Maryland gondola, and Rock Island coupula caboose. The caboose is in really nice shape- the ladders are slightly bent out of shape but other than that it's in as good condition as I could ever ask for.I'm going to be keeping an eye out for some original Marx track. And for the missing cars. I made off decently none the less, because there was an odd assortment of parts kicking around in the box, including maybe 5-7 Marx trucks, and about that many, maybe more coupler pockets- and several couplers. Very handy to have.I haven't serviced the powered unit yet, but it is able to run, just barely- I wouldn't dream of trying to use it until after I've been through it, though. I really love the paint scheme and aside from a few damaged steps, the locomotives are in pretty decent cosmetic condition.That's all for the Marx pictures for now, folks! Thanks for tuning in.-Ellie
Leverettrailfan Marx models seem to me to reflect their O gauge counterparts in principle- simple, inexpensive, and durable. They may not look as realistic as Gilbert, or feel as premium as Lionel, but they definitely seem like they were excellent bang for the buck.
That was always the secret to Marx's success, they may not have been the best, but they were more affordable.
I haven't had much major news to report to this thread, but the other day (aided by parting with some various items I was less attatched to) I purchased a few new items for the collection. With these latest aquisitions, I can now proudly say I have at least two locomotives made by each of the 'big three'! From what I've seen of the quality of their HO models, Gilbert, during its heyday, produced the best locomotives of the lot. Lionel locomotives seem to be a mixed bag. Marx models seem to me to reflect their O gauge counterparts in principle- simple, inexpensive, and durable. They may not look as realistic as Gilbert, or feel as premium as Lionel, but they definitely seem like they were excellent bang for the buck.I wound up purchasing a few cars by mistake (sort of) that weren't made by the big three- I'll probably keep them (at least for now) but I won't focus on them here.First up, a subject matter I think I want to delve into further at a later date: I purchased a second red Michigan Central gondola! That said, although I haven't made any rule against buying duplicates yet, I can safely say that while my two gondolas share a number, and markings, that is just about all that is identical between them. Pictured below, at left, is my 0865-250, which dates to 1961. On the right, is my "new" car. According to the old Greenburg guidebook on Lionel HO, there were a significant number of changes made over the course of gondola production between 1959 and the end of production in 1966, and the catalog number for different versions of the car changed many times- but the number on the side of the car only ever matched three catalog numbers: 0862-200, 0865-200, 0865-225, and 0865-250. So, while my second gondola at first glance looked to me like I had bought another 0865-250, according to the guide it is actually an 0865-375, and if I had the original box, it would presumably display this number on the end flaps.I intend to make a whole post dedicated to examining the differences between these two, because I was staring at them tonight while taking a few pictures and went from thinking "these two are exactly the same" to "these two are completely different"!Next up, is a very sad and neglected 0319 (or 0319-100?) Operating Helicopter Car. This car had almost nothing going for it... it seems like someone attempted to convert the car over to match with their "scale" model rolling stock, but ended up mostly just making a mess of it. I had to scrounge around for some couplers and coupler pockets since the original trucks were gone and the replacements weren't set up with "talgo style" couplers. I did my best with what was on hand, it's no showpiece but it makes my train longer- the main reason I bought it. That and the $1.99 price tag.Tomorrow I'll share the rest of the finds... from here on out, we change gears from Lionel to Marx.-Ellie
I've done some research, Roco actually never made anything for Lionel Corp as far as I can detirmine. Rivarossi and Lionel made a deal for 1957, with the goal to produce quality HO models- the idea was that Rivarossi was well regarded, and their models were both detailed and well made, and Lionel as a brand name had very wide recognition in the US so it was favorable for Rivarossi to sell through them. However some sort of dispute caused the contract to end with 1957, and Lionel approached Athearn to make their trains for 1958. The arrangement worked out that Athearn provided Lionel with trains, however were allowed to sell the exact same trains under the Athearn name (just without the Lionel logo or name). Interestingly the shell for the rectifier was always a Lionel product, even though originally the chassis was made by Athearn.In 1959 Lionel bought most of the tooling from John English's HObbyline, and set about coverting over to producing their HO in-house using modified HObbyline tooling. The first Lionel made HO started rolling out in 1959. Lionel no longer needed Athearn to make trains now they had their own tooling, so 1959 was the last year Athearn had a deal with Lionel to make trains. The Lionel Corporation ceased HO production in 1966.As for "modern" Lionel HO, after MPC took over... I don't know much about that. I've learned what I just said from reading a Greenberg book that I was able to check out of an online library. The information all seems to make sense to me. If there is a more up to date book, though, I'd love to look at it.If Roco made anything for Lionel, it definitely wasn't during the postwar era.It makes sense that Lionel by Rivarossi is the hardest to locate since it was only manufactured for one year. Interestingly, the two Rivarossi made steam locomotives Lionel cataloged (0600 docksider, 0610 consolidation) bear no obvious indication they were sold as Lionel other than the box they came in!-Ellie
Great finds Ellie!
If memory serves, Lionel bought HO articles from Athern, Roco, and Rivarossi, so the Athern and Roco pieces are probably ones to keep an eye out for if you're pursuing Lionel HO.
It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it, right?
Wayne
Well, I was meaning to post these but didn't get to it until now.While the 0847 is an example of Lionel following the trend of sturdily built, less realistic rollingstock, the HO line began in 1957 with models aimed towards realism and scale modeling, and were more for the adult model railroader than the child. I wouldn't really conmsider them 'toy trains' since nothing about them feels toy like, but Lionel did catalog OO and O gauge items directed at the scale modeler, so perhaps they still have every right to stand beside the rest of the Lionel Line.These cars are very exciting to me, because they are both rare Lionel by Rivarossi. I felt pretty lucky to be able to find not just one, but two cars. They are identical to cars produced by Rivarossi under their own brand, with the exception of a tiny little Lionel "circle L" logo. The cars even say "Made by Rivarossi" underneath. The cattle car is in quite lovely condition aside from the broken coupler, which is shocking considering how fragile it feels. The gondola is in less nice cosmetic shape, but is fully intact.
Lionel/Rivarossi 0862-25 Gondola:
Lionel/Rivarossi 0866 Stock Car:
See if you can spot the circle L!Found it? Great! Keep an eye out, because the guy at the store I got these from didn't seem to have any idea these were special. You might be able to find a desirable piece hidden amongst a bunch of ordinary, common HO equipment by Athearn or Rivarossi- if you can spot the L!Rivarossi only manufactured Lionel's HO line for 1957. Some items remained cataloged for 1958 but presumably Lionel were just depleting remaining stock.Stay tuned for more, there's one final piece of Lionel HO I have to share from this 'haul' (if you could call it that) and it's gone from being a disaster, to being somewhat of a success story.-Ellie
traindaddy1So many years with HO but age, eyes and flexibility moved me to the bigger stuff. Thanks for the memories.
My first proper electric train set was HO. I had a lot of fun with it but being small, it was perhaps a little fragile for me at the time. I have happily transitioned away from the smaller stuff, and mainly work with O and S gauge, and a bit of Standard Gauge. Last year I helped a friend (we volunteer at the same museum) exhibit his HO layout at a small show, and someone dropped a bunch of trains at the layout that needed a home. I discovered there was a nearly complete Lionel HO train set, and I thought it was neat so I laid claim on it. That got my curiosity ticking so I decided to try learning more about it. I always assumed it was cheap stuff that wasn't worth anyone's time but it's actually quite substantial feeling and the Lionel-made items (1959 onwards) use the same decoration techniques as O gauge stuff, so they're rather charming to me. My first love is still the larger stuff, and I mostly just collect the odd HO item that intruiges me, and/or comes my way for free. I'm still quite young as far as 'train people' go, so my fingers are able to work on them ok. That may well change in 30-40 years!-Ellie
Leverettrailfan: So many years with HO but age, eyes and flexibility moved me to the bigger stuff. Thanks for the memories.
Thanks Wayne- I would agree, except I have a flyer pacific that is a lousy smoker- and found that the fiberglass wick had somehow compacted/baked around where the heater element wraps around it, and the change in consistency ruined the proper capilary action. I am curious to see if that is the case with my 433. But you could just as well be right. I am sure that were I to run the switcher on more typical track of its era, the sound of the loco operating would be much less and you'd be able to hear those "choo-choo"s much better.For better or for worse, I made a visit back to the hobby shop where I got the 433 and 0566. It's not my favorite place to go but it's the only train-focused hobby shop anywhere close to me. I regretted not going for a little Lionel 0-6-0 switcher I'd seen in a box of stuff that needed fixing. I hoped maybe it would be less of a disaster than the 0566 turned out to be.Today my family made a trip out and I got some time in the shop- I hunted around through the used rolling stock this time, hoping to find some appropriate rolling stock to go with my HO toy trains. My determination paid off somewhat, as I did manage to find some Lionel rolling stock hidden amongst the boxes. In total I found 5 pieces of Lionel rollingstock, and one I suspected to be Gilbert, but in the end I only bought 3 cars. Prices weren't exactly the cheapest, generally I don't want to pay more than a couple bucks for some old HO cars since that's what I remember being able to manage back when I was still into HO, and buying stuff at the annual show I go to. Due to the expense, I had to pass up on buying a boxed Marx F unit. I don't generally obsess over getting boxes, but it was cool to see and looked decent. Very much had that 'Marx' look to it. I had brought some old HO I had around that I wasn't in love with, in hopes it might help offset the cost of anything I bought. Well... it did, but just barely- I didn't end up able to get a lot for it, but I figured it was for the best to pass it on. Still feels a little tough having parted with them, but I'll make peace with it. I really didn't get much use out of the stuff I parted with.I did a bunch of photographing of my Lionel/Flyer HO roster, I didn't have a perfect backdrop so I need to tidy up most of the images I took, but I'll start off with sharing some pictures that came out fairly "ok". This was one of the cars I got today, an 0847 Exploding Target Range Car. It was in a Marx box for some reason when I found it in the store. It's not in such terrible cosmetic shape and still functions as intended. Seems like it would be all too easy for something to get broken, that said it is a bit more rugged feeling than you'd think just from seeing a picture of it.
The mechanism inside is much the same as the O gauge counterpart- a 'mousetrap' style mechanism that is released by an impact to one side of the car- internal plastic projections on the car sides are caught by the unleashed sprung arm, to send them flying- this also throws off the roof. Snap!A few key differences are present, however. The most obvious, when looking at the car (ignoring the sprung trucks, which were standard fare for Lionel HO during this car's production run) is the lack of a metal pin that is inserted into the roof to 'disarm' the car. Lionel must have wisely determined that a little metal pin would easily get lost, and might be finicky to insert into the car. Instead, under the car is a locking lever, which can be reached on the same side of the car used to trip the exploding feature. I would venture it's a much better system than what was used on the O gauge car.The bit of metal that the lever "hooks" is the base of the rocking 'latch' that retains the sprung arm, until an impact to the target side pushes it inwards, releasing the arm.Here's how it looks from above:
I'd say there's no big surprises inside, some differences to the layout of the plastic projections that engage with the mechanism, but the basic function is identical to the O gauge car.One last interesting difference between the HO model and the O, is that unlike O gauge cars, the 0847 (and presumably its successor, the 0847-100) has a bi-directional roof. There's no "wrong" way to fit it on! Without the need for a hole to drop the locking pin in, there's no need to make it a one-way fit.Fortunately my car (as of this writing) still has both couplers, so that's one less thing to fuss with. I will clean the wheels, and the mechanism, to improve how well it rolls and how well the mechanism functions, but nothing major should be needed.I will try and make some sort of video of it in action, but I don't have an HO scale 'minuteman' car to fire at it! Perhaps I'll try using the O gauge missile car I have.Tomorrow I'll try to post images of the other aquisitions, the other two cars are quite interesting to me.-Ellie
Great job Ellie, looks like you've got a good runner there!
I suspect the smoke unit's working as well as it ever did. Honestly I'm surprised AF managed to get a smoke unit in an HO engine back in the 50's.
The "choo-choo" sound's probably working as well as it ever did too.
I was able to identify and resolve some troubles I had, and can now get the 433 to run with the shell on. I took a short video of it running on the workbench:
The boiler front doesn't fit very tight, and despite my best efforts it's run off and I need to figure out where it went. I'm debating lightly glueing it in, we shall see.-Ellie
I figured I might as well use this thread to offer an update on my HO toy train doings-My 0566 was unfortunately a bust. I was told that the motor ran, however after a very thorrough cleaning and proper lubrication, the motor would often refuse to start from a standstill- reversing polarity would get it going though. With a freely spinning armature, clean brushes, commutator, and a strong magnet, the only fault I could see was that I had a shot winding. So I had to tear the motor down. I'm going to attempt to re-wind it at some point. Also on the list of 'to-do's for this loco is sourcing new drive belts. Someone on eBay offers them, as well as reproduction nylon clips and couplers, but golly will you look at those prices! Yikes! I can understand the expense of reproducing plastic parts in presumably very limited demand, but it seems unlikely nobody makes a suitable drive belt that costs pennies per unit. An old Lionel brochure I've seen on the web describes them as neoprene O ring drive belts:However the pulleys have a 'V' shaped groove, suggesting that a square cross-section belt might be favorable. I may end up trying both if I can locate them in the right sizes and for minimal expense. The eBay seller gives no dimension other than 3/4" diameter, but I would assume this is the inner diameter as it would make the most sense. I estimate the cross section to be around 1mm, since a typical cassette machine belt fits nicely in the groove. More news as the story develops...In regards to the Gilbert 433, I am happy to report I found an axle kicking around which will cooperate with the tender. I can't properly run the loco without the missing steam chest and pilot, but without the shell on it will happily run. It isn't as silky smooth as some of my American Flyer, but runs quite happily. Unfortunately even though it has both smoke and "choo-choo", the latter is rather quiet and you can barely hear it over the noise of the motor. The smoke output is rather poor until you're running at around half-throttle (so, maybe 6-8 volts?), but I think that's normal. I don't want to mess with it since it does work right now.At some point soon I hope to shoot a short video of it running! It's a nifty little engine, and it makes me want to own its counterpart in S gauge! They would look so cute side by side.I was looking forwards to maybe hunting for more HO toy trains (as well as the usual gauges) at a forthcoming annual show I usually attend, but unfortunately it's looking like I won't be able to attend this year. Hopefully next year is a better year for attending the show.-Ellie
Flintlock76Some might say these belong on the "Model Railroading" Forum but not me, they're classic toy trains in their own right.
I really love that early H0 stuff! There is a simplicity to it.Just the basics. It's all part of the story of the evolution of model trains.
Paul
Interesting Ellie!
Some might say these belong on the "Model Railroading" Forum but not me, they're classic toy trains in their own right.
Keep 'em coming, and Merry Christmas to you and yours!
I'll start us off with some nice finds I scored on my birthday this year- a Lionel 0566 from 1959, and an American Flyer 433 from 1957.
Both need some work, but have good motors. The 433's smoke unit still works, and the chugger mechanism looks good too. I need a new steam chest and pilot, though- and a new axle for the tender. Note how much the built quality, design, and materials mirror those of the S-Gauge line.The Lionel 0566 'Texas Special' ALCo FA is a lovely "miniaturized" version of the 211. Referencing the Greenberg Lionel HO book I was able to check out from the Archive.org library, the style of motor and drive would date this model to 1959- the first year Lionel offered HO that was actually made by the Lionel Corporation. It features an interesting combinartion of worm gear drive, and belt drive. My example (unsurprisingly) is in need of new belts, but the motor still runs. Plans are to replace the original belts with cassette machine belts, since they should outlast an ordinary rubber band. The headlight bulb also is due for replacement.Yes, those are metal horns on the cab. Not bad, Lionel!Though perhaps they would have done well to avoid the belt drive when designing these locmotives. At least they eventually saw the error in their ways and moved entirely to using gear drives.-Ellie
It's hardly a secret, but I seem to have been bitten by the HO bug.Please, hear me out! I'm not talking about just any HO. I'm talking about HO produced by the "big three": The Lionel Corporation, The AC Gilbert Company, and Louis Marx & Co.Inspired by Northwoods Flyer's wonderful thread for prewar American Flyer, I decided I wanted to start a thread for HO (and OO, why not!) that was produced by the notable toy train makes of the pre- and postwar eras.Looking forwards to seeing some pictures from others!-Ellie
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