Who makes the highest quality/most detailed production modern Diesels - Lionel, Atlas, k-Line, MTH?

[Anonymous]

Hi -

I recently jumped into model railroading with the purchase of a beautiful N&W Steam 1218 engine 2-6-6-4. The Lionel craftmanship on this unit is phenomenal - metal body, very intricate detailing - a wonderful engine. I had assumed that all engines would have that level of detailing, but boy was I wrong!

I started looking for a diesel engine, and was extremely disappointed when I went to a hobby store and looked at Lionel's diesels (I was hoping to purchase a big SD series, a Dash 9, or a U30C). The attention to detailing on these $4-600 units was horrible - I can honestly say I was offended by the detailing (or lack thereof) on the SP Dash-9 - the molded plastic body looked like a cheap plastic mold found in children's toys from China! Frankly, the windshield wipers looked comical (as a matter of fact, look at their catalog - they look like fine black wipers - not the case - they appear to have been molded with the plastic body in the cheap gray plastic - even Lionel had to alter the appearance of this engine in their catalog to make it palatable to consumers). Even the CSX SD series lacked a great amount of detail (for instance, the steps are simple plastic molds and one of the top fans is literally molded plastic into the body).

Then I looked at both a K-line engine and Atlas - much better detailing in my limited opinion for a much lower price.

I was very impressed with the Atlas SP GP-35's detailing (cab 6531). From the steps that actually have little grates (I believe they are metal) to the fine windshield wipers, to the fans that actually have grates on them with blades under them, that when blown upon, turn. The top of the train felt solid, like metal, and I could see tiny rivets on the side of the engine. A stark contrast to the lack of detail on the Lionel.

Can anybody tell me, as I am new to model trains, if my impression is correct - that Lionel, the legend, has a major lack of detail compared to other brands - again, specifically in regards to modern diesels. And for the lack of detail, really seem over priced (I have no problem paying for quality, but am really astounded at the lack from Lionel).

Furthermore, can you recommend any company/product that has integrated TMCC/Railsounds and has a "big" diesel - like an SD70/80/90, a Dash-9, or a
U30C - that have very fine details and don't simply look like a large child's toy?

I'd like a big diesel, but with the lack of attention to detail, combined with the hefty price tag of Lionel, I'm quite tempted to go with the smaller Atlas GP-35 unless someone has other solutions.

Any ideas would be appreciated!

Thanks very much!

[3railguy]

Atlas O in my opinion has the highest level of detail followed by Lionel and K-Line maybe. MTH is up there too. It depends a lot on which Lionel diesels you are looking at. Lionel's new scale Trainmasters, S-2's, and F-3's are knock outs.

[Anonymous]

Thanks 3railguy -

Unfortunately, that's what I thought (Atlas being highest level of detail). I didn't look at the S2 nor F3's as I was hoping for a bigger modern diesel.

I'm almost afraid to buy anything from Lionel site-unseen based upon their catalog renderings - have you seen the latest catalog with the SP Dash-9 (6-28229)? it looks beautifully detailed from the catalog drawing, but personally, I'd be returning it had I bought it direct from Lionel - the windshield wipers as I mentioned, are the cheapest looking details I've seen! Talk about false advertising!

Can you recommend a larger locomotive (modern) with high detailing? It appears from Atlas' catalog that they only make smaller engines.

Thanks!

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy

Atlas O in my opinion has the highest level of detail followed by Lionel and K-Line maybe. MTH is up there too. It depends a lot on which Lionel diesels you are looking at. Lionel's new scale Trainmasters, S-2's, and F-3's are knock outs.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Click here for the BEST DETAIL Guaranteed!! [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[ben10ben]

I'll agree with John that you absolutely can't beat Atlas for the most part.

As he said, though, their recent F-3s, GP-30s, and Trainmasters sure as heck give Atlas a run for the money. It wouldn't suprise me if Lionel stepped up the detail on their other previous diesels in the next few years, as the response to these three engines(and others) has been excellent.

[Anonymous]

Yup, there is always one in a crowd. [:)]

Seriously, though, have you ever taken the time to look closely at an Atlas versus a Lionel - the attention to detail on the Atlas is staggering in comparison to the Lionel - besides everything else mentioned, look at the trucks - the Atlas has fine metal parts and rods, while the Lionel trucks look like a stamped piece of plastic from my child's Fisher-Price collection...

I'm just surprised at the difference in price - the Atlas GP-35 being around $400 (at an overpriced hobby store), and the Lionel SP Dash-9 being around $600 (yes, over list).

I'm hoping someone can steer me to an "O" scale solution for a larger engine with better detail than the Lionel, and while I appreciate your link, I think those 100% scale models might be a little out my price range, not to mention have a bit of trouble navigating my 072 curves.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

Click here for the BEST DETAIL Guaranteed!! [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ben -

When you say Trainmasters, what are you referring to - I thought the SP Dash-9 was the latest and greatest that Lionel had (from the current catalog)? I did look at the F3s and GP's, but am curious about the Trainmasters - is there something I'm missing? Do you guys mean the LionMasters?

Thanks!!

Sean

QUOTE: Originally posted by ben10ben

I'll agree with John that you absolutely can't beat Atlas for the most part.

As he said, though, their recent F-3s, GP-30s, and Trainmasters sure as heck give Atlas a run for the money. It wouldn't suprise me if Lionel stepped up the detail on their other previous diesels in the next few years, as the response to these three engines(and others) has been excellent.

[Anonymous]

The Lionel Century club has released super detailed Trainmasters

[Anonymous]

Do you have a link? I don't see it in their catalog - is it through Lionel?

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lehigh Valley Railroad

The Lionel Century club has released super detailed Trainmasters

[ben10ben]

The Lionel Century Club II is a club strictly for buying the latest and greatest Lionel products. Like the first Century Club, when they first came out with it, they also annouced 5 engines associated with it. One could, at that time, pay either $100 or $500 for a membership, which really was just to allow you to purchase the engines. I believe that the ESE Hudson(due some time next year, if memory serves me correctly) is the only one remaining. Lionel may or may not do another Century Club once this one is over.

While the Trainmaster were absolutely incredible models, they are no longer available. The rest of us peons who couldn't afford to be in the Century Club, or missed the deadline for ordering, hope that Lionel makes the newly tooled Trainmaster available to the general public in the next few years.

http://www.lionel.com/Clubs/Findex.cfm

[Anonymous]

Atlas diesels by far, they make my mth diesels look like toys. Just waiting for atlas to bring out alco pa's and f3's so I can replace my mth ones that for their time were very good, but not anymore.
Dave.

[Anonymous]

Argh!

<RANT>
You know, in the short time I've been into Model Railroading, I will have to say that I'm AMAZED that Lionel is still in business, and this is just another example.

First of all, they produce sets like the recent UP Overland Freight, which sell out in a few days. Lionel: Business 101: People seem to like the UP line, so produce more and reap more profits. If you create a set that is worth more broken apart and sold than it is together, you've done something WRONG!

Next, even current stock locomotives are out of stock: Case in point: UP SD70-MAC. Come on, supply/demand. If you've been in business over 100 years, you'd think they'd have a hint as to how to meet demand for a product.

Now this Trainmaster club thing - if you *can* produce high quality products, the DO! Atlas *can* produce high quality products and *does* - it really isn't rocket science. Keep up with the latest in injection molding/metal fabrication or lose your competitve edge!

</RANT>

QUOTE: Originally posted by ben10ben

The Lionel Century Club II is a club strictly for buying the latest and greatest Lionel products. Like the first Century Club, when they first came out with it, they also annouced 5 engines associated with it. One could, at that time, pay either $100 or $500 for a membership, which really was just to allow you to purchase the engines. I believe that the ESE Hudson(due some time next year, if memory serves me correctly) is the only one remaining. Lionel may or may not do another Century Club once this one is over.

While the Trainmaster were absolutely incredible models, they are no longer available. The rest of us peons who couldn't afford to be in the Century Club, or missed the deadline for ordering, hope that Lionel makes the newly tooled Trainmaster available to the general public in the next few years.

http://www.lionel.com/Clubs/Findex.cfm

[Anonymous]

Just out of curiosity, which ones do you have? Anything from current production stock?

Also, any good sites to get discount Atlas products (current stock)? Google isn't turning up much, and eBay's selection is pretty bad. BTW, hobbystation.net has pretty good (near wholesale) prices on Fastrack, but they only carry Lionel.

QUOTE: Originally posted by northern 1

Atlas diesels by far, they make my mth diesels look like toys. Just waiting for atlas to bring out alco pa's and f3's so I can replace my mth ones that for their time were very good, but not anymore.
Dave.

[nblum]

Lionel is not designed exclusively for folks with obsessions about scale detail and prototypical accuracy, which is why they've survived for 100+ years despite producing trains that run on track which has that funny middle rail. :) That having been said, the last ten years or so has seen an increase in consumers interested in highly detailed, prototypically accurate models that run on highly non-prototypical track, as well as possessing way out of scale couplers and wheel flanges. This is called "hi-rail" O gauge three rail by most people. Many, if not most three railers in O gauge are interested in the toy value of playing with trains, a mainstay in Lionel's history, including whacky accessories like the Gateman, operating Milk Car, etc. I believe you may not be familiar with the history or current market in three rail O gauge. As several people are trying to point out there is a diverse array of products.

The Dash-9 loco you mention is a several year old tooling that is not considered state of the art in scale detail. Its MSRP is $430 and it is readily available for 10-20% less than that say $350 to $390. Thus while I'm not sure where your numbers come from, $600 is a gross ripoff for the model in question. Atlas is (unlike Lionel, MTH and K-Line), completely committed to prototypical accuracy (except for the flanges and couplers). But the other manufacturers do have some models (particularly K-Line and MTH steam locomotives, and Lionel high end steam and more recent diesels) that compare favorably with Atlas in terms of scale detail. Stick around and you'll see what we mean.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Neil -

I'd appreciate a bit of clarification on what you wrote below - what Lionel Diesels are you referring to with the greater attention to detail (are they the aforementioned F3 and GP's?

I am familiar with the price of the SP (from Lionel's site, $429) so yes, the hobby store was a ripoff. My hope is therefore to find an Atlas or engine that perhaps you all can recommend that keeps to greater detail. Again, night and day between the Lionel Dash-9 and the Atlas GP-35. Again, from my limited background of having just purchased a Lionel steam with metal body and no skimping on detailing, Lionel really surprised me (granted my engine was a $1400 engine - but I would have hoped that the reduction in price for the plastic models would be just because they were plastic, not because they skimped on detailing).

Well, I guess I'm going to have to forgo a big boy Dash, SD, or U-Boat for an Atlas - can anyone recommend a discount atlas online store?

Thanks!

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

Lionel is not designed exclusively for folks with obsessions about scale detail and prototypical accuracy, which is why they've survived for 100+ years despite producing trains that run on track which has that funny middle rail. :) That having been said, the last ten years or so has seen an increase in consumers interested in highly detailed, prototypically accurate models that run on highly non-prototypical track, as well as possessing way out of scale couplers and wheel flanges. This is called "hi-rail" O gauge three rail by most people. Many, if not most three railers in O gauge are interested in the toy value of playing with trains, a mainstay in Lionel's history, including whacky accessories like the Gateman, operating Milk Car, etc. I believe you may not be familiar with the history or current market in three rail O gauge. As several people are trying to point out there is a diverse array of products.

The Dash-9 loco you mention is a several year old tooling that is not considered state of the art in scale detail. Its MSRP is $430 and it is readily available for 10-20% less than that say $350 to $390. Thus while I'm not sure where your numbers come from, $600 is a gross ripoff for the model in question. Atlas is (unlike Lionel, MTH and K-Line), completely committed to prototypical accuracy (except for the flanges and couplers). But the other manufacturers do have some models (particularly K-Line and MTH steam locomotives, and Lionel high end steam and more recent diesels) that compare favorably with Atlas in terms of scale detail. Stick around and you'll see what we mean.

[ChiefEagles]

Buckeye answered your question as you asked it. [;)]

[Anonymous]

Actually, he didn't -
1) this is a "model railroad" board, so context should be understood, and
2) I specified brands, and GE/GM were not included.

[:o)]

So, to make this productive, why don't you give me a good source for Atlas online (discounters) or do you have a Lionel SD70-MAC (union pacific) you'd like to sell me cheap?[:D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChiefEagles

Buckeye answered your question as you asked it. [;)]

[nblum]

Atlas tends not to be discounted more than 10% and their volume produced is very small. It is not easy to find their locomotives readily available from hobby shop stock, in my experience. Your best bet is a reputable mail order store such as Justrains (Delaware), Charles Ro, Nassau Hobbies or Island Trains. There are others. Each has a website. I'd call them by phone if emailing doesn't work to inquire about availability. I believe Atlas has GP60s in the works or available, if you're looking for something larger than a road switcher. Some of Lionel's finest efforts at scale detail in diesels have been for their Century Club II (FM Trainmaster, Sharknose) and smaller recent diesels (RS11, Scale version of their F3s). Lionel has a very nice remake with good scale detail of the FAs and PAs that you might be interested in unless you want more modern diesels. You can check the recent years' catalogs on the Lionel website. These are pretty much at the same level (to my eye) of Atlas diesels. I'm less familiar with K-Line's and MTH's diesels, but they are, according to most folks, not quite at this state of the art level at present. If you are a stickler for prototypical accuracy and scale detail, your best best are the admittedly limited production of Atlas and 3rd Rail. But there are some recent Lionel diesels mentioned above that are similar or close, much better than the Dash-9 you saw.

[spankybird]

Maybe you should check out this K-Line SD70



here is a link

http://www.k-linetrains.com/products/viewprd_new.cfm?prdID=8373BF83-593E-4347-A30AD39DE89279A2&secID=B17A068D-6D44-11D4-ADA90060B0576B82

tom

[3railguy]

Sean, AM Hobbies is a good Atlas O discount dealer. Atlas has done some dynamite dash-8's. I'm not a big fan of modern power and I have not seen Lionel's dash-9's. I recall sesing their SD-90 in person and was impressed. I own a Lionel SD-40 UP tunnel motror and I think the detail on it is well done. This is a toy train forum by the way, not a model railroad forum. Now if you have high expectations suggest you put your money where your mouth is and give Central Locomotive Works a call They will sell you a built up and painted SD-40T-2 for $1,600.
http://www.centrallocomotiveworks.com/

[ChiefEagles]

WOW, for $1,600, it better run its self [no remote]. Now that must be a work of art.

[Anonymous]

Hi John -

Now that is what I'm talking about. Actually, if you look closely at the front, you'll notice two things:
1) 6 (3 on each side) little metal pipes coming out of the snow plow, and
2) barely visible - grates on the stairs - they're not simply plastic indentations.

This looks very much like the detailing on the Atlas GP-35.

I chatted with a guy at a local bay area hobby store - he broke apart a Lionel UP Overland set and is swearing that the detailing on the UP SD70 is in his opinion, comparable to the Atlas. I'm going to check it out in the next day or so.

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy

Sean, AM Hobbies is a good Atlas O discount dealer. Atlas has done some dynamite dash-8's. I'm not a big fan of modern power and I have not seen Lionel's dash-9's. I recall sesing their SD-90 in person and was impressed. I own a Lionel SD-40 UP tunnel motror and I think the detail on it is well done. This is a toy train forum by the way, not a model railroad forum. Now if you have high expectations suggest you put your money where your mouth is and give Central Locomotive Works a call They will sell you a built up and painted SD-40T-2 for $1,600.
http://www.centrallocomotiveworks.com/

[Anonymous]

Thanks Tom, but did you notice the due date - Dec 2005!!! The detailing looks nice though.

QUOTE: Originally posted by spankybird

Maybe you should check out this K-Line SD70



here is a link

http://www.k-linetrains.com/products/viewprd_new.cfm?prdID=8373BF83-593E-4347-A30AD39DE89279A2&secID=B17A068D-6D44-11D4-ADA90060B0576B82

tom

[ben10ben]

Sean,
The model pictured in the K-line ad, is, in fact, not the one that K-line will be producing. The model pictured is a brass model from someone else. Don't purchase based strictly on the pictures, as you will probably be disapointed.

I'm sure that the detailing on the K-line will be very good, but I would almost guarantee that it's not going to be as good as it is in the picture.

[Anonymous]

And for 1600 dollars do you get command control with sound ????????
Leave it to Atlas, 3rd rail upped the bar for all diecasters and they are coming around in steam, and Atlas has top spot right now.
I second the nomination for buying from Just Trains. The atlas rs 1 lists for 429 with cruise and I got it for 375 postage paid. That is a good deal and Just Trains is always friendly with me on the phone.
I would warn to NOT order over the internet, most places do not keep their inventory updated enough to know if you can get it or not.
Dave.

[Anonymous]

Atlas O GP60, or Atlas O Dash 8B

End of contest.

[Anonymous]

Some great thoughts in this thread about K-Line. Ben's thoughts are right on target as are SeanCon's. What troubles me about this K-Line offering is that their current advertising does not actually show a mock-up of their production models. Check out their web site and look at their Santa Fe and Alaska versions.

It's got to be a great business to get upfront money from customers then the customer has to wait a year to get the product.
I'd love to work with other peoples' money, too.
BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[spankybird]

But on the other hand,

K-Line has done a great job on detail of the Berkshires, Hudson and refer cars, just to name a few. [tup]

I just pick up one of the new K-line refer [:D] and put it next to the Atlas one. Which is which [?]







tom

[Anonymous]

By the way, does anybody find the Atlas catalog site as annoying as I do? The folks made everything SSL[}:)], which makes browsing a nightmare!
[:(!]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lehigh Valley Railroad

Atlas O GP60, or Atlas O Dash 8B

End of contest.

[Anonymous]

I just pick up one of the new K-line refer and put it next to the Atlas one. Which is which

---

Robin Hood is K-Line

===

I ran a GE Demo unit all weeked, a fine machine.