Who makes the highest quality/most detailed production modern Diesels - Lionel, Atlas, k-Line, MTH?

[Anonymous]

I am brand new here, and enjoyed this thread thoroughly, having some opinions on the subject myself. There was a five car Lionel Freight Train that was introduced in 1950, and I literally ran the wheels off of it. Forty five or fifty years later, I saw a Lionel promotion that featured, of all things, the train I had. Not the very train, of course, that was long gone, but the same consist. I remarked to my wife, and come Christmas, there was that train under the tree where it had been when I was six. She found it at a local store, now defunct, called "Old Toy Trains." I even got a ZW transformer, a luxury that we couldn't afford when I was six. It ran really good, and I caught the train bug after a fifty year absence. Went right out and bought a NYCRR work train by Lionel--Sheesh, what a piece of trash. I don't think the engine made over five circuits before it crapped out, the cars were too light to track without derailing, and there was only one coupler per car, something I didn't notice until I started setting it up. My hobby shop then introduced me to Mike Wolf's product--much more of the same quality that I expected. I now have seven MTH sets, and two Lionel, one of which has to borrow a locomotive from the other one because its locomotive is non-functional. I do have a few new additional Lionel cars--they are the ones that the couplers don't work on. Some people are just a touigh study. The old Lionel still works just fine, couplers and all. And the ZW is smooth as a baby's behind. But don't try to sell me anything that Lionel made after 1960, even the $1600 Pickering Lumber Company Heisler with the glorious detail that I saw at Warrick's--it looks good, but it probably won't run.

[dougdagrump]

As an operater and not a collector I have engines,steam and diesel, from Lionel, K-Line and Atlasl. For detailing the Atlas is far and away the best. But with all that detailing one pays a price. As many of the regulars here know I run my trains at the San Diego Model Railroad museum not on a layout in my home. Consequently my trains are being packed-up and moved at least once every two weeks, rotating the engines and cars to reduce some wear and tear.The result being that part of the price you pay with all the extra detailing is not only cost but some of that fine detailing ends up being broken off. Am I disappointed, yes. Would I consider not buying Atlas, no. The smoothness of operation and the excellent sound qualities more than make up for some of the pieces being broken off.
Forgot to say my diesel favorite is my Atlas SD-35, B&O, and my steam favorite is my
K-Line Mikado also B&O. [^]

[Anonymous]

I like lionel engines. Atlas engines are the most detailed engine I have seen. Lionel engines are less detailed but they are more durable. You have to be very carefull with atlas engines they have lots of small parts which can break . Lionel and MTH are easier to handle. Just getting an atlas engine out of the box is hard. Has anyone broken anything on an atlas engine?

[Anonymous]

Good question. I have also (in the last 2 years) gotten back into hobby and I've been wondering the same thing. As I get more into the hobby I am getting more into detail.

I recently purchased 2 separate Lionel diesel Locomotives. Both are newer Lionel versions with TMCC, railsounds and odyssey. One was a D&H U30C purchased on ebay for ~ $300. The other was a D&H ALCo PA A-A which my wife purchased for me from Charles Ro for Christmas last year. She paid $565 for the A-A set. I couldn't tell you what the list price was for either.

For the most part I had been satisfied with the level of detail. Then I read your post so I ran to my basement to check them out. I still have the christmas layout set up so it made it really convenient to check. In short here is what I found:

From a few feet away (in less than ideal lighting). I couldn't really see any problems with the detailing. Upon very close examination, I must agree that truck detail on both did look like it was from a "stamped" piece of material. I could not tell whether the body or trucks were metal or not. The wipers on the U30C looked like blue plastic but the wipers on the PAs were gray and looked more realistic. Would'tn it be cool if they made the wipers operate.

In terms of other details. Both appear to have realistic decals like the manufacturers (i.e GE) would have put on the real things. The PAs were more detailed than the U30C. The PAs have fans in the roofs covered by what looks like a real metal grate. The fans are powered and move when the engine begins to move. The PAs also have small eyelets and other detail on the top of the engine. Both have figures in the cab and nice lighting. I am also very pleased with the sounds, Horn, bells, crew sounds etc. The TMCC is also very easy to use with both of them. I would provide pictures but my camera is terrible with close-ups.

Overall, I am very pleased with both of these diesels. I guess my concern would be the ruggedness of a more detailed engine. It is very tedious getting them in and out of their packaging/boxes. I like to handle, run my engines and even with these (which I now hear are probably not the most detailed) I worry about damaging some of this finer detail.

I hope I don't sound like a Lionel commercial. Its just what I grew up with and is most of what I know when it comes to toy train engines. After reading the responses to your questions I will give the Atlas diesels a closer look.

[tgovebaker]

Tinplate Junction is a good store, with a good selection, and a knowledgeable staff -- and they're hiring, in case anyone wants a job. As for Marin, hmm, I wonder which one that could be...

I haven't compared the new Lionel side-by-side with the Atlas, but in the interests of this forum, I will pop into Millburn Train and Hobby tomorrow (I'm in NJ for work) and do an assessment...

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Plus, they're right by the trainyards/docks - I need to ask them if there are any good vantage points.

I must of been close. I recall tracks, docks, warehouses, and a freeway viaduct passing over it all.

BTW, Just Trains is just west of Concord. I can't remember the exit but it wasn't difficult.

[Anonymous]

Awesome - thanks for the tip - Tin Plate is easy to find - right off the freeway (northbound 880 right past 980 split, take Market Street Exit, go under the freeway and turn left on 5th). Worth the trip.

Plus, they're right by the trainyards/docks - I need to ask them if there are any good vantage points.

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy

QUOTE: I've been to Tin Plate Junction in Oakland - not yet to look at a diesel, but they seem to have a fantastic selection. They've got some newer engines, and and seem to echo your sentiment- the quality has dramatically improved.. They also have an Atlas (either Dash8 or GP), so I'll compare quality side-by-side.

I take it you've been to Just Trains in Concord (not to be mistaken with Justrains of Delaware). The last time I was there, he had a good selection of Atlas O equipment. I bought my first woodside reefer there.

I tried to find Tinplate Junction and got lost. Ended up at a great Mexican restruraunt. somewhere in downtown Oakland.

[Anonymous]

Not sure about your "how do people get offended by inanimate objects" statement - people often get offended at inanimate objects - a cross on a public building (or ten commandments statue, if you live in the South), a picture in a magazine (perhaps of a naked person), or a train that costs a lot more than the competition yet appears "cheaper", with lower attention to detail, even though it is supposed to come from the icon of toy trains.

Funny about your "Fisher Price analogy is without merit" statement as well when you were the one that just argued that less detail stands up to greater abuse - I'd say you just made the Fisher Price analogy! [:0] Although very good point about the abuse Lionel's can take, palallin.

QUOTE: Originally posted by palallin

Your question is difficult. Fine detail does NOT equal high quality. The lIonel engines that "offend" you (I have to ask how qanyone can be offended by an inanimate object) are perfectly made in the highest quality for their originally intended purpose. The problems aren't the engines but your expectations. If you must have the finest details, the Atlas engine will be what you need or skip right over the three-rail stuff and buy brass for two-rail O scale. If you want an engine that will take a lot of abuse and not get beat up, buy the Lionel. If I turn one of those super Atlas engines over to my six-year-old son, the detail ends up smashed, borken, and bent.

Nevertheless, the Fisher-Price analogy is without much merit: if it ain't 1:1 scale AND generating revenue, it's a TOY, but that doesn't make "toy" an insult.

[Anonymous]

Go with Atlas. Whether it is a toy or not, they look more like the real thing scaled down.


"if it ain't 1:1 scale AND generating revenue, it's a TOY"

Not generating revenue describes alot of things and different things at once to different people.
I have lots of toys, but I'll conceed some of these trains are not toys.

Bill

[3railguy]

QUOTE: I've been to Tin Plate Junction in Oakland - not yet to look at a diesel, but they seem to have a fantastic selection. They've got some newer engines, and and seem to echo your sentiment- the quality has dramatically improved.. They also have an Atlas (either Dash8 or GP), so I'll compare quality side-by-side.

I take it you've been to Just Trains in Concord (not to be mistaken with Justrains of Delaware). The last time I was there, he had a good selection of Atlas O equipment. I bought my first woodside reefer there.

I tried to find Tinplate Junction and got lost. Ended up at a great Mexican restruraunt. somewhere in downtown Oakland.

[palallin]

Your question is difficult. Fine detail does NOT equal high quality. The lIonel engines that "offend" you (I have to ask how qanyone can be offended by an inanimate object) are perfectly made in the highest quality for their originally intended purpose. The problems aren't the engines but your expectations. If you must have the finest details, the Atlas engine will be what you need or skip right over the three-rail stuff and buy brass for two-rail O scale. If you want an engine that will take a lot of abuse and not get beat up, buy the Lionel. If I turn one of those super Atlas engines over to my six-year-old son, the detail ends up smashed, borken, and bent.

Nevertheless, the Fisher-Price analogy is without much merit: if it ain't 1:1 scale AND generating revenue, it's a TOY, but that doesn't make "toy" an insult.

[Anonymous]

Hello tgovebaker -

Thanks for your thoughtful and astute observations. The hobby store I originally looked at (with the over priced engines) will remain nameless, although it is in Marin County...

I've been to Tin Plate Junction in Oakland - not yet to look at a diesel, but they seem to have a fantastic selection. They've got some newer engines, and and seem to echo your sentiment- the quality has dramatically improved.. They also have an Atlas (either Dash8 or GP), so I'll compare quality side-by-side.

My initial quality comments came from the hobby store I went to in Marin County, which also had a very good selection.

I don't know if you've ever compared Atlas and Lionel side-by-side, but again, if you stick a SP Dash-9 (looks like current model) next to an Atlas, you'll notice the difference- the Atlas has the fine piping detail on the snowplow, the rivits in the plastic, the metal roof, fine metal ladder rungs up the side, the exhaust fans with working blades (painted a different color), the steps that are metal grates, very fine wiper blades. Compare that to the Lionel - the exhaust fans on the CSX SD appeared molded into the body (a one-piece plastic injection mold), the steps were a single piece of plastic, and the trucks were much less detailed than the Atlas. As I've said numerous times, the wipers were comically out of proportion (probably from the same plastic mold as the body).

I am curious - am I describing your train (plastic mold, etc) - or do you see shades of the Atlas I describe in your new Lionel?

Thanks for your productive input!!! [:)]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tgovebaker

I will politely disagree with the unnecessary trashing of Lionel's quality. I picked up the Overland Freight set the day it arrived at Charlie Ro's and have to say the detailing is extremely good, higher than my previous Lionel and MTH engines. In addition, the engine worked perfectly right out of the box, has great Railsounds, and has quickly become my favorite and best-performing engine. It is a beautiful set, and the rest of the cars are equally nice. To be sure, since I already have a command set and don't use FasTrack, I didn't need some of the stuff and sold it. So be it -- the diesel engine is a beauty.

A few months back, I started a thread on the future of the O gauge hobby and got some very thoughtful posts in return. There is at present a lot of capacity and a relatively static market, which means that companies like MTH and Lionel (and to a lesser extent K-Line) are trying desperately to serve multiple segments simultaneously. Atlas enjoys a more narrowly focused market: highrailers seeking exceptional detail. Without any history producing or knocking off classic toy trains and their accessories, Atlas can focus on a smaller group of customers with very specific tastes.

That said, like any business -- particularly one with a static base of customers -- has a certain casino-like element to it. In fact, the O-gauge industry is not unlike the record business, with the big companies looking for "hits" across genres, and the smaller ones like indie labels with economics that allow less revenue (but likely with higher margins).

Finally, my guess is that Lionel got caught a bit off guard by the demand for the Overland Express -- it sold out faster than the Acela -- partiuclarly since the majority of Americans (and thus O-gauge enthusiasts) live outside the UP service area.

One more thing -- you said you're in the Bay Area. Which train store did you check in with?

[tgovebaker]

I will politely disagree with the unnecessary trashing of Lionel's quality. I picked up the Overland Freight set the day it arrived at Charlie Ro's and have to say the detailing is extremely good, higher than my previous Lionel and MTH engines. In addition, the engine worked perfectly right out of the box, has great Railsounds, and has quickly become my favorite and best-performing engine. It is a beautiful set, and the rest of the cars are equally nice. To be sure, since I already have a command set and don't use FasTrack, I didn't need some of the stuff and sold it. So be it -- the diesel engine is a beauty.

A few months back, I started a thread on the future of the O gauge hobby and got some very thoughtful posts in return. There is at present a lot of capacity and a relatively static market, which means that companies like MTH and Lionel (and to a lesser extent K-Line) are trying desperately to serve multiple segments simultaneously. Atlas enjoys a more narrowly focused market: highrailers seeking exceptional detail. Without any history producing or knocking off classic toy trains and their accessories, Atlas can focus on a smaller group of customers with very specific tastes.

That said, like any business -- particularly one with a static base of customers -- has a certain casino-like element to it. In fact, the O-gauge industry is not unlike the record business, with the big companies looking for "hits" across genres, and the smaller ones like indie labels with economics that allow less revenue (but likely with higher margins).

Finally, my guess is that Lionel got caught a bit off guard by the demand for the Overland Express -- it sold out faster than the Acela -- partiuclarly since the majority of Americans (and thus O-gauge enthusiasts) live outside the UP service area.

One more thing -- you said you're in the Bay Area. Which train store did you check in with?

[Bob Keller]

Comeonguys,
Play nice.

[Anonymous]

And buy IBM only, and General Motors, and only eat at McDonalds....[:0]

3railguy - do you have anything productive to add to your post that really adds nothing to this thread - my point was that Lionel quality/detailing sucks, and you're saying, "Buy only Lionel" - why???

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy

BUY LIONEL AND
ONLY LIONEL

[3railguy]

QUOTE: MTH has the best detail, even though they leave out a few things like little graphics, but that is because it would cost YOU more to buy it

LMAO!!!

That was a good one.

[Anonymous]

MTH has the best detail, even though they leave out a few things like little graphics, but that is because it would cost YOU more to buy it

---

Hahah, wrong.

[Anonymous]

MTH has the best detail, even though they leave out a few things like little graphics, but that is because it would cost YOU more to buy it

[Anonymous]

John Long what is the reasoning for your statement regarding lionel.
There are other fish in the sea too. dave.

[3railguy]

BUY LIONEL AND
ONLY LIONEL

[Anonymous]

I just pick up one of the new K-line refer and put it next to the Atlas one. Which is which

---

Robin Hood is K-Line

===

I ran a GE Demo unit all weeked, a fine machine.

[Anonymous]

By the way, does anybody find the Atlas catalog site as annoying as I do? The folks made everything SSL[}:)], which makes browsing a nightmare!
[:(!]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lehigh Valley Railroad

Atlas O GP60, or Atlas O Dash 8B

End of contest.

[spankybird]

But on the other hand,

K-Line has done a great job on detail of the Berkshires, Hudson and refer cars, just to name a few. [tup]

I just pick up one of the new K-line refer [:D] and put it next to the Atlas one. Which is which [?]







tom

[Anonymous]

Some great thoughts in this thread about K-Line. Ben's thoughts are right on target as are SeanCon's. What troubles me about this K-Line offering is that their current advertising does not actually show a mock-up of their production models. Check out their web site and look at their Santa Fe and Alaska versions.

It's got to be a great business to get upfront money from customers then the customer has to wait a year to get the product.
I'd love to work with other peoples' money, too.
BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[Anonymous]

Atlas O GP60, or Atlas O Dash 8B

End of contest.

[Anonymous]

And for 1600 dollars do you get command control with sound ????????
Leave it to Atlas, 3rd rail upped the bar for all diecasters and they are coming around in steam, and Atlas has top spot right now.
I second the nomination for buying from Just Trains. The atlas rs 1 lists for 429 with cruise and I got it for 375 postage paid. That is a good deal and Just Trains is always friendly with me on the phone.
I would warn to NOT order over the internet, most places do not keep their inventory updated enough to know if you can get it or not.
Dave.

[ben10ben]

Sean,
The model pictured in the K-line ad, is, in fact, not the one that K-line will be producing. The model pictured is a brass model from someone else. Don't purchase based strictly on the pictures, as you will probably be disapointed.

I'm sure that the detailing on the K-line will be very good, but I would almost guarantee that it's not going to be as good as it is in the picture.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Tom, but did you notice the due date - Dec 2005!!! The detailing looks nice though.

QUOTE: Originally posted by spankybird

Maybe you should check out this K-Line SD70



here is a link

http://www.k-linetrains.com/products/viewprd_new.cfm?prdID=8373BF83-593E-4347-A30AD39DE89279A2&secID=B17A068D-6D44-11D4-ADA90060B0576B82

tom

[Anonymous]

Hi John -

Now that is what I'm talking about. Actually, if you look closely at the front, you'll notice two things:
1) 6 (3 on each side) little metal pipes coming out of the snow plow, and
2) barely visible - grates on the stairs - they're not simply plastic indentations.

This looks very much like the detailing on the Atlas GP-35.

I chatted with a guy at a local bay area hobby store - he broke apart a Lionel UP Overland set and is swearing that the detailing on the UP SD70 is in his opinion, comparable to the Atlas. I'm going to check it out in the next day or so.

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy

Sean, AM Hobbies is a good Atlas O discount dealer. Atlas has done some dynamite dash-8's. I'm not a big fan of modern power and I have not seen Lionel's dash-9's. I recall sesing their SD-90 in person and was impressed. I own a Lionel SD-40 UP tunnel motror and I think the detail on it is well done. This is a toy train forum by the way, not a model railroad forum. Now if you have high expectations suggest you put your money where your mouth is and give Central Locomotive Works a call They will sell you a built up and painted SD-40T-2 for $1,600.
http://www.centrallocomotiveworks.com/