TMCC/DCS Survey

[Bergie]

I'm cutting the name-calling off at the pass.... [locked]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChiefEagles

Thanks Bob. I'm sure you have the best figures. Since this got into a BS thing, why not lock it down. I read through it this AM and I see children began to play.

Frank, I see no such problem, and certainly none of the telltale name calling.

Bob, just for fun, would you ask Kelly to post this poll for us here on the forum?

[ChiefEagles]

Thanks Bob. I'm sure you have the best figures. Since this got into a BS thing, why not lock it down. I read through it this AM and I see children began to play.

[Bob Keller]

CTT has been tracking TMCC usage in our surveys before even Lionel began doing this.

Over the years, we've seen a steady, though slow, increase in command system usage. In our surveys for the November 2004 CTT, of people answering the paper survey 25.3% used TMCC, 6.7% DCS, 6.7% both, and 61.1% neither.

People answering the web survey 33% use TMCC, 5% use DCS, 9% both, and 53% neither.

As for people who have a control system, paper responses indicate roughly 33% use command 50% or less of the time, roughly 60% use command 50% or more of the time they run trains. Web results were 31% use command 50% or less of the time they run trains, and 68% use command 50% or more of the time they run trains.

I believe that our figures are pretty accurate, they been steady, and reflect the overall three rail market.

[Anonymous]

Conventional

[nblum]

"Thee only thing i would wish for is a LCD display, that would be nice"

Hang in there, there may be something coming :). Of course we've heard this before, but this time it may be different. Let's see what's revealed at York in April.

[eZAK]

TMCC only!

And I CAN run PS-1 & PS-2.

Here are the current prices from various supplies;
$94 TPC 300, $89 Cab-1 & Cmd. Base, $1 TVS (Transeint Voltage Suppressor)

Total is $184 for TMCC! This is all you need. & $260 DCS.
(Although DCS maybe worth it)

A Power Master is NOT needed b/c of the TPC.

The TVS will do the same thing as a surge suppressor.
I will note that to protect ANY engines electronics a TVS should be placed inside.


TMCC-57
DCS-10
TMCC&DCS- 29
Conventional- 26

[jonadel]

Just what we need, another unscientific poll, I thought when the elections were over we were done with this BS. Who really cares? Strengths and weaknesses to both systems, personal bias will always be rampant, i.e. my car's faster than yours; my trains can pull more than yours; etc. Like my mother always said: "be happy with what you have"--not a problem for me and I'm not telling what systemI use[:)] This sounds like a playground arguement at recess.

Jon

[Anonymous]

FOr simplicity, i'll keep the TMCC. I only run TMCC, no conventional,no MTH. So all i need is right on the cab-1 remote. THe only thing i would wish for is a LCD display, that would be nice. Still i'll keep it. It's simple, it works, it's inexpensive.
Bill

[nblum]

I think the relative complexity of DCS and TMCC are well summarized by the list of caveats. Both can be made to work fine in most instances, just that TMCC is less problematic by far in most settings.

Barry Broskowitz has a nice and useful list on the OGRR Forum. It's about a page long and includes about ten points long (see below).

In contrast, the caveats for TMCC are three points: (1) make sure your command base power supply is grounded, (2) ground track that runs right over other track if you have a signal problem and (3)avoid using metal screen or other large metal objects on or near the layout.

No doubt that TMCC is easier to install, less demanding of wiring geometry, less complex, and less likely to go south on you after installation. Particularly on largish layouts. My experience personally is similar to Roy's above. On simple layouts, TMCC's advantages are much less, but still real.

"While these items are geared towards a large layout, they will also be very effective on smaller layouts. If your wire runs are very long, use the larger indcated wire gauge, e.g., 14 rather than 16.

• Locate the TIU’s centrally to all points on the layout to which they will be connected;
• Run 14-16 gauge wire from the transformers to each of the TIU inputs;
• Run 14-16 gauge wires directly from the TIU outputs to the center of each of the areas of the layout that each channel supports;
• Place a terminal block at each of those places;
• Run 16 gauge wire to each track location directly from the associated terminal block. DO NOT use a second tier of terminal blocks;
• Place an 18 volt bulb across each terminal block’s inputs (one bulb per terminal block). Alternately, lighted Lionel #260 bumpers work fine for me, one per TIU channel;
• All wire should be either paired (like speaker wire) or, even better, twisted pair, to reduce signal loss on the longer runs. The OGR wire is the best 16 gauge wire I've encountered for this purpose;
• Solder all connections to the tracks. If you have the time and patience (frankly, I did not) crimp spade connectors to the end of every wire that gets screwed into a terminal block, unless you use terminal blocks that place the wire in a hole and then screw down on top of it. Regardless, the intention is to get a very tight connection.
• Isolate all sections of track that get a DCS signal from all other sections of track that get a DCS signal. Basically, each becomes a block. Do this by ensuring that the center rails of each block are isolated from adjacent blocks. It's NOT necessary to isolate the outside rails from block to block."

[Anonymous]

I have wired 2 fairly large layouts for DCS operation and have never had any issues. I actually used the same wiring schematic for TMCC also. 3 different connection points on the layout. I use the atlas block controls for sidings so I can turn off the power when a passenger train is sitting there, no issues what so ever. IMO the DCS wiring concerns have really been overstated. The real complicated layouts probably are difficult to wire using either TMCC or DCS.

[wrmcclellan]

So I will add my setup:

TMCC and DCS - although I run TMCC trains with the CAB1 and DCS with the DCS Handheld. What do I prefer - the CAB1 for a control and TMCC overall for its simplicity. I have had lots of issues with DCS which from my viewpoint as a radio design and systems engineer (30 years - 100 KHz to 38 Ghz) is too complicated of a radio modulation scheme for a toy train layout where signal multipath and interference in a complicated track scheme (such as our club layout) predominate. I do appreciate the 2-way communication of DCS.

TMCC-56
DCS-10
TMCC&DCS- 29
Conventional- 26

Regards,
Roy

[laz 57]

Oh by the way the other half of the layout is for the children and that is in conventional mode.
Laz57

[Anonymous]

Neil..........

Ooooooooooo Kkkkkkkkkkkkk..................... hmmmm

I have added the OGR totals AND the ones posted above.

Those of you who had already posted AND were counted on the OGR board, delete your preferences from this list (as, I will delete MY single preference for "Conventional" use.

The last posted totals on OGR were:

TMCC-52
DCS-7
TMCC&DCS-27
Conventional-23

I will now add the CTT totals above...

TMCC-52 + 4 = 56
DCS-7+3 = 10
TMCC&DCS-27 + 1 = 28
Conventional-23 + 4 = 27

I will now DEDUCT my CTT preference... since I posted one on the OGR list...


TMCC-52 + 4 = 56
DCS-7+3 = 10
TMCC&DCS-27 + 1 = 28
Conventional-23 + 4 - (minus 1) = 26

The NEW total now stands at:

TMCC-56
DCS-10
TMCC&DCS- 28
Conventional- 26

If your preference was counted on the OGR board, please DEDUCT your CTT preference from the above list.

There!!! I think that should do it. (I hope).

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

Don't forget to add in the 59 TMCC only, 30 DCS +TMCC and 11 DCS only from the OGRR Forum survey, minus those who responded in both places. ;)

.
This is starting to sound like an Ohio or Florida election. [:0] You forgot the names from the tombstones as another place to pick up some votes. [V][V] And of course, I want to vote more than once because my punch card had jelly on it from my PB&J that I was eating.

[nblum]

Don't forget to add in the 59 TMCC only, 30 DCS +TMCC and 11 DCS only from the OGRR Forum survey, minus those who responded in both places. ;)

[laz 57]

I am in TMCC but next week will have DCS.
Laz57

[Buckeye Riveter]

TMCC 4
bobblaisdell
Big_Boy_4005
ttam
Buckeye


DCS 3
Spankeybird
Jim Duda
ChiefEagles

TMCC & DCS 1
Bill T.

Conventional 4
Alan_H
Bill Conner
ChiefEagles
Buckeye

[Anonymous]

...sorry about the count. But, I began counting after my post. I thought previous posters would add their preferences after mine.

In any case, here are the current standings (I think). If not, you can copy and paste the totals into your "new" message... after "adding" your preferences.

TMCC 3
bobblaisdell
Big_Boy_4005
ttam


DCS 3
Spankeybird
Jim Duda
ChiefEagles

TMCC & DCS 1
Bill T.

Conventional 3
Alan_H
Bill Conner
ChiefEagles

[laz 57]

CHIEF, SPANKYBIRD and JIMBO, I think you guys have sold me on this DCS. I think I will invest in this as long as you say I can run all the Lionel Locos off this. Thanks again for all the info, this forum makes life easier for people to get different opinions on things and I think yous guys are stearing mr right. I will inquire about this at the train shop next Monday. What is a good price to pat for this?
Laz 57

[ChiefEagles]

Alan, we need to teach you how to count. You missed Jim Duda, Spankybird and me. I run DCS adn conventional. This week, I will be adding the TMCC module to be able to run all three.

Laz, I bought DCS and stored it for a couple of weeks as I was a little anxious about installing it on the temp layout on the floor. I heard so much about wiring and operation. I saw the OGR tape and it was great. Finally one day, out of boredum, I hooked it up to the temp layout with poor wiring. Fired up my engines and away they went. Track signal of 10 on all three loops and all sidings. The operation of the remote is so easy. I was really ashamed of myself for not doing it sooner. Think that is why I have been slow on get the TMCC module [heard some rumors]. Got a great deal on a TMCC diesel and so I am going to add the module as soon as Dr. says you can drive [better be this week]. Ignore all the rumors and BS and go for it. Half of what you hear from both groups is BS. Got outstranding support on this forum and OGR too. Hit a bump, post it or call someone [I called Tom a couple of times to make sure things were right]. [:D][:D]

[mcattardo]

I'm wondering why you can't run a ps2 in conventional with a powermaster?

[Anonymous]

I'll add ttam's preference for TMCC, since he forgot to add it.

New total:

TMCC 3

DCS 0

TMCC & DCS 1

Conventional 1

[Anonymous]

I have both systems wired on my layout, prefer DCS

TMCC 1

DCS 0

TMCC & DCS 1

Conventional 1

[Anonymous]

Only TMCC for me!

[Anonymous]

New total:

TMCC 2

DCS 0

TMCC & DCS 0

Conventional 1

[Anonymous]

...or, maybe this listing is easier for posting.........

TMCC 1

DCS 0

TMCC & DCS 0

Conventional 1

[Anonymous]

...as I posted above, each poster can "copy & paste" the previous total into his reply, add his preferences to the total.... and hit the "Submit Reply" button.

This would keep the total up-to-date with each posting.

Otherwise, I'll do it.......... unless someone else wants to be the bean counter.

Anyway, so far, the count is.............


TMCC 1 DCS 0 TMCC & DCS 0 Conventional 1

[Big_Boy_4005]

I've said this many times before, but if someone is counting, TMCC only for me. Everyone else can do what they want.