Gentlemen:
I am really enjoying this discussion! While it appears that Jack and Deputy are on two sides of the discussion, they are actually saying the same thing. The difference is that Jack assigns a value to some intangibles where Deputy does not. It does not make either one of them right, it is just a difference in philosophy.
However, I am curious to hear from Deputy regarding the car analogy. I am wondering if he had the option to purchase the car/truck at a greater discount but without a warranty (or a warranty that was scaled back), would he do it?
Also, once the car/truck is out of warranty, would you still bring it to the dealership for repairs? Even if the dealership price was 20% greater than an independent shop?
Regards,
John
Jack: Wow! I guess you are very differnet than me. Let me explain..."I am willing to pay more at my local Ma and Pa outfit on the purchase end because I place a financial value on more than just the item purchased and the purchase price. You don't."That's true. I'm on a fixed income/pension. Not getting Social Security yet (I'm 59). I don't have the luxury of putting the food on my table and the table of Ma and Pa outfits. Note that I also buy mainly high end train stuff. So the price difference is more than just a couple of bucks when I find a less expensive price for the same item. I'm not flashing my cash around to impress anyone or bragging. I have to save up my pennies to buy what I want just like everyone else. So I have to also pinch them and get the best price.
"Of course I trust my local repair guy more than the faceless "next available repair person" at Lionel. Wouldn't you?"In a word...no!!! I trust the people who initially put the product together over someone who needs to consult a repair manual or took a training session from someone who put the product together. The same holds true if my truck had a problem. I trust the Chevy dealer to fix it with the correct parts and procedures over taking it to some shadetree mechanic to work on what amounts to a very complexd (15 different computers in my truck) vehicle. In new cars as in new toy trains, they are no longer items built on the KISS principle any more. They are complex items that require someone with specialized training to repair. And I would trust the person who does repairs over and over on a daily basis over one that does them "as they come in the door"."Don't tell me you never go into a convenience store when the prices are so much lower at the grocery store."Only time I go into a convenience store is when they beat the prices at the grocery store. As a matter of fact, our Dollar General store has dish washing detergent that works better and cost less than what is available at the grocery store. Again...I watch my money very carefully "But if you didn't have to, you wouldn't buy it without sitting in it, playing with the gadgets, examining how it meets your ergonomic expectations, and driving one yourself in your real world environment. "As a matter of fact, that is exactly how I bought both my 2004 Chevy Silverado and my 1969 Mustang. I went in to the dealership after listing the features I wanted and told him "I want one of these in silver". Didn't need to sit in it, play with the gadgets, or take it out for a test drive. Heck, back in 1969 I ordered my Mustang brand new when I was still stationed on Okinawa!!! If you know what you want to buy after careful research, then all that other stuff is just goofing around with the salesman. Nowadays I don't even talk to a salesman. I put the car together online and get the car at $50 over dealer cost. I walk in with a printout and ask to talk to the "internet rep". He already has a copy of my printout and locates the car I want or orders one for production. Welcome to the 21st century
If you didn't have to, you wouldn't buy a car sight unseen and have it delivered by trailer to your door (fingers crossed). LOL...my 1972 Corvette was purchased from ProTeam Corvette in Ohio. I was living in Illinois when I bought it. It was trailered to my door and dropped off. I saved a bundle that way!!! Never would have been able to afford it otherwise.
"And I doubt you buy it from a dealer in Anchorage just because they have the best purchase price."Why would you doubt that????? If they would ship it here to my location and the shipping didn't kill the discount, I would do it in a heartbeat. Warranty work is the same no matter where you live. I bought my 2004 truck in Glenview, IL and moved here to NM in 2006. I had warranty work done on an emmission gizmo and they did a perfect job for no charge.
"Doesn't seeing the car in person have a value over a picture?"Nope. As long as I know what color it is and what it will look like, I don't need to touch it."And doesn't actually driving the car in Deputy's world have a value to you?"Nope....it's brand new. I know what trucks are like because I've ridden in them."In short, beyond purchase price, and having the choice, the rest has a value to you along with a financial price you would be willing to pay above the cheapest Anchorage purchase price."Nope...the bottom line for me is the botttom line. You could still buy from a local dealer and get taken or he may have crummy service. You just go somewhere else for service. So the cheapest price for me is the cheapest price.
Virginian Railroad
I think why we Americans are offended at some basic level when a company moves it's manufacturing overseas is that we mistakenly view companies in a nationalistic sense. Corporations have no loyalty to anything except the almighty dollar. They are not in the business of making trains, they are in the business of making money. Hence, when a company in a subtle, or not so subtle way, waves the flag behind them in order to appeal to our natural nationalistic impulses (in order to sell product), we are rightly upset when they close their American factories.
I personally do not have loyalty to any corporation. I buy strictly on quality, features and value for the dollar. That is not to say I do not have my preferences. I do prefer many of the great American brands and companies. But that is more of a aesthetic choice and appreciation of heritage than anything else.
All things being equal, I will always choose to buy products made by Americans, if possible. The key phrase is "made by". If those people happen to work for Honda in Ohio, rather than people who work for Chevy in Korea, I will choose, again based on quality, features, and value, the Honda made by Americans. In this "global" economy, who actually owns the factory doesn't matter much anymore.
Nope, no Walmart theory here. More of a price/performance comparison.
I may not have made my post clear, but I don't know how else to say it. My profession requires me to dig deeper and help clients identify all the costs and value-added items, not just the obvious ones like a purchase price.
The cheapest price is NOT the cheapest price as you say because the purchase price of an item is not the total price. You have placed no price tag on the other things I mentioned. But there is value to all of the things I mentioned and a true financial cost associated to nearly every one of them. Put a price tag on value and the other financial costs beyond purchase price, and I think we have agreement. You cannot separate and ignore them. They are part and parcel of the ownership experience, and they come with a price.
Just like a toy/model train manufacturer (any manufacturer) has to consider more than just material, labor, overhead, facility relocation expenses, and incremental distribution costs as part of its total costs when electing to manufacture abroad versus domestically.
This is not a matter of wanting to have our cake and eat it too. I am willing to pay more at my local Ma and Pa outfit on the purchase end because I place a financial value on more than just the item purchased and the purchase price. You don't.
Of course I trust my local repair guy more than the faceless "next available repair person" at Lionel. Wouldn't you? I (now) know him personally, I know his experience, I know his credentials, I know his judgement, and I know his results. What more can I ask for? I maintain there is a financial value in having the repair service right down the road, at my fingertips.
But with convenience comes a price tag added into the purchase price. Unlike you, I have the luxury of choice because of the close proximity of both Northeast Trains and Charles Ro, and of Walmart. Don't tell me you never go into a convenience store when the prices are so much lower at the grocery store. Why? Because you place a financial value on your time and/or the proximate convenience of the convenience store.
Re the "research" and "hold the item in your hands" points. Research from afar doesn't quite get it done.
Take an automobile purchase as an extreme example. Sure, you'd research it first. But if you didn't have to, you wouldn't buy it without sitting in it, playing with the gadgets, examining how it meets your ergonomic expectations, and driving one yourself in your real world environment. If you didn't have to, you wouldn't buy a car sight unseen and have it delivered by trailer to your door (fingers crossed). And I doubt you buy it from a dealer in Anchorage just because they have the best purchase price.
Why? Because the purchase price was just a starting point. Additional shipping charges negated some of that purchase price advantage. The risk of the sight unseen car arriving damaged (now what?) negated some more of the price advantage. Doesn't seeing the car in person have a value over a picture? And doesn't actually driving the car in Deputy's world have a value to you? In short, beyond purchase price, and having the choice, the rest has a value to you along with a financial price you would be willing to pay above the cheapest Anchorage purchase price.
So the cheapest price is not the cheapest price.
As I said in my last post, doing business with my local train store may cost more on the front end, but I get the differential back.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
wallyworld wrote: No apology required. I think its reasonable that both of our points of view have validity in that this situation like most is in the eye of the beholder. You are in a rural area and I am in a urban area. The internet for you and the hobby shop for me simply shows its not an either \ or situation. Each has their advantages and disadvantages all of which depend on personal circumstances.Its sort of like Lionel versus MTH..or one control system versus another...it isnt like well...that one is awful and the other is "perfect" I suppose these days the world is often viewed in counter opposed frames where perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle, eh?
No apology required. I think its reasonable that both of our points of view have validity in that this situation like most is in the eye of the beholder. You are in a rural area and I am in a urban area. The internet for you and the hobby shop for me simply shows its not an either \ or situation. Each has their advantages and disadvantages all of which depend on personal circumstances.Its sort of like Lionel versus MTH..or one control system versus another...it isnt like well...that one is awful and the other is "perfect" I suppose these days the world is often viewed in counter opposed frames where perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle, eh?
Agree 100% and well said!!
Deputy wrote: wallyworld wrote: Not exactly what a less dispasionate observer would call a balanced view. This is your choice but I dont think it is necessary to express it by painting an obviously lopsided view in order to justify your views at the unjustified expense of store owners. I think that is exagerated, mean spirited and uncalled for, especially inferring I am a Luddite. If you and I were face to face, rather than on the internet, I think it would facilitate a conversation versus using the internet to do so. Stereotyping never served anyone well.I have to hitch the horse now... Sorry if I was passionate with my reply. I was just relating my personal experiences. For some reason this forum has a lot of advocates of the Luddite philophosy. BTW...you got me on that one. Had to use Wikipedia to find the meaning In my rather small town (population under 10,000) there is a group of elitists who love to bash Walmart and other large stores, and their main reason is the destruction of the Mom and Pop busineses. I love catching these exact same people shopping in Walmart late at night I also wonder how many people who bash large toy train superstores on this forum actually sneak over to the websites and order from them. Anyway, I apologize if my reply was curt-sounding. No offense intended. Just giving my point of view. I suspect everyone has different situations and experiences and everyone feels just as strongly about all of them. Dep
wallyworld wrote: Not exactly what a less dispasionate observer would call a balanced view. This is your choice but I dont think it is necessary to express it by painting an obviously lopsided view in order to justify your views at the unjustified expense of store owners. I think that is exagerated, mean spirited and uncalled for, especially inferring I am a Luddite. If you and I were face to face, rather than on the internet, I think it would facilitate a conversation versus using the internet to do so. Stereotyping never served anyone well.I have to hitch the horse now...
Not exactly what a less dispasionate observer would call a balanced view. This is your choice but I dont think it is necessary to express it by painting an obviously lopsided view in order to justify your views at the unjustified expense of store owners. I think that is exagerated, mean spirited and uncalled for, especially inferring I am a Luddite. If you and I were face to face, rather than on the internet, I think it would facilitate a conversation versus using the internet to do so. Stereotyping never served anyone well.I have to hitch the horse now...
Sorry if I was passionate with my reply. I was just relating my personal experiences. For some reason this forum has a lot of advocates of the Luddite philophosy. BTW...you got me on that one. Had to use Wikipedia to find the meaning In my rather small town (population under 10,000) there is a group of elitists who love to bash Walmart and other large stores, and their main reason is the destruction of the Mom and Pop busineses. I love catching these exact same people shopping in Walmart late at night I also wonder how many people who bash large toy train superstores on this forum actually sneak over to the websites and order from them. Anyway, I apologize if my reply was curt-sounding. No offense intended. Just giving my point of view. I suspect everyone has different situations and experiences and everyone feels just as strongly about all of them. Dep
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Not exactly what a less dispasionate observer would call a balanced view. This is your choice but I dont think it is necessary to express it by painting an obviously lopsided view in order to justify your own views at the unjustified expense of store owners. I think that is exagerated, mean spirited and uncalled for, especially inferring I am a Luddite. If you and I were face to face, rather than on the internet, I think it would facilitate a conversation versus using the internet to do so. Stereotyping never served anyone well.I have to hitch the horse now...I refuse to trade barbs...call it old fashioned.
Yes...and it was nice to pet the horse as you hitched him up to the buggy for a Sunday ride. But those days are gone! You either live in the 21st century and accept that history is history and you can't bring back the "goold ol' days", or start working on a time machine and join HG Wells in the past. That might sound harsh, but it's reality. Buying online I have had salesman at online stores search out and find items that were all but impossible to find, even if I had gassed up my truck and driven cross country. I don't spend one penny on $4.00 a gallon gas driving hours and hours to a hobby shop (add that into the cost of hobby shop trains!). I point and click and in a week or less the item is delivered to my doorstep. It comes with a factory warranty as well as return/exchange privledges wherever I buy from. By patronizing specific online sellers, I have built up a friendly relationship where they know me when I e-mail or call them, and they bend over backwards to satisfy me. I get discounts for buying in quantity and get special prices or offers because I am a valued customer. I get e-mail notices of special sales and salesman who know what I like to buy send me e-mails informing me when they get a particular road name that interests me. And best of all....and I know this will upset some...I don't have to see kids opening boxes and messing with items I am interested in buying. It never ceases to amaze and anger me to see parents "turn the kids loose" in a hobby shop, and then they proceed to destroy everything they can get their hands on. I have purchased a lot of my train stuff on Ebay and have never had to return or complain about anything I bought. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I know how to shop on Ebay better than others. I dunno. Can you grow the hobby on the internet? That depends on how you use the internet. If you are riding around shopping in a horse and buggy, then no, you can't.
Deputy
Whether it is customer service, the transfer of production overseas, or quality..this is a world of diminished expectation no matter where the finger is pointed. On the other hand, I have had engines repaired promptly and at a reasonable cost, had my questions answered, had odd repair parts ordered and tracked..have had sets custom arranged..actually had real time in person discussions on hobby issues, one stop shopping for magazines\track\buldings\transformers etc etc...all in the local hobby shop. You are greeted by name...see new products actually run before I buy them..sound systems as well. The internet?...Give me a break...Cheap is cheap. You get what you pay for. Further..I often drive an hour to get to Sommerfelds in Milwaukee in addition to my regular shop..I have swapped trains...got to see used equipment doing an end run around the common misrepresentations on Ebay..where I can actually examine a purchase..imagine that. Priceless. On many a visit i see parents bring their kids to see the trains run..at times run them...can you grow the hobby on the internet? Not. The "old Ralph" characterisation is frankly, an unfounded slander to the many shop owners and shops I still frequent.
Jack: I think what you are using is the "Walmart theory" for retaining Mom and Pop stores. Unfortunately, it has many flaws. For instance...a Mom and Pop store has how many employees (besides Mom and Pop)? Maybe one or two other guys? Charles Ro most likely has a LOT of employees working for them. So jobs becomes an issue. US citizens are always told and often educated to make a wise purchase. In this day and age people just can't afford to pay more to keep a local store of any kind in business. Mom and Pop stores that were successful back in the 50s will either have to modernize or go under. That's just the way free enterprise works. Maybe the Mom and Pop places can also go online and sell their stuff on the internet? Competition is what makes this country what it is. You have to be able to change and adapt with the times. The "hold the item in your hands" sounds good, but I prefer to do intensive research into what features are on a loco, rather than be swayed by holding it in my hands. And the train magazines like CTT and OGR are invaluable in doing the legwork for us as far as evaluating the good and bad of trains. The "time factor" doesn't come into play for me at all. I would rather a repair facility take their time and do the job right. How can you replace a treasured heirloom or first train? What if good ol' Ralph is working a 10 hour day and falls asleep while smoking a cigarette in that train store? Your treasured heirloom goes up in smoke and nothing you can do about it. Poop happens and there isn't much you can do about it. If you are worried about treasured heirlooms not working or breaking, then the simple solution is don't run them. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I have 3 postwar S2 turbines and they will see very little track time compared to the two MTH S2s or the 3 Lionel S2s I own. Hey....you make your choice and you live with it.
The cheapest price is the cheapest price. It just means that you have to take the consequences of fixing things yourself or sending them out to be fixed. Like I said...I have no Mom and Pop train or hobby stores in my town, and the closest one is 1/2 a day's ride to Albuquerque. So I either have to ship it or fix it myself. I live with that situation and deal with it.
I am not sure there is an solution to this dilemma. The train manufacturers are not driving the smaller guys out of business. We ourselves are driving the Mom and Pops out of business because we don't place any financial value on convenience, turnaround time, personalized service, and a sales transaction that allows us to hold, watch, or operate the piece we are about to buy. We vote with where we use our charge card. And that is where we find the cheapest price.
To me, show me/then sell me at a local train shop is my personal preference because I like to see the item in person before I buy. I am not totally bent on saving the 10-15% on a purchase. I figure the extra money I spend at my local Ma and Pa train shop mitigates some of the unknowns. At my Mom and Pop, I might be able to see the item in action on their layout and hold it, have them explain features. How many of us have gotten a great deal pricewise but were disappointed when we opened the box and saw or used the item up close and personal? There's aways a bunch of active threads about this throughout the CTT Forums.
How much money do we save over the long haul when the Mom and Pop sales and service facility goes under and.....all repairs, no matter how minor, require ultra-safe packaging, a trip to the parcel shipment store, an out-and-back shipping fee, plus perhaps insurance. Contrary to what some may think, many of us can't/don't/won't do some/all of our own repairs. And we wouldn't have the parts or tools even if we wanted to do them ourselves (more shipping costs and waiting).
Or when the Mom and Pops go out of business and I want to casually pick up some train-related supplies and have to buy them over the net......lost time and shipping costs for each transaction.
Or when the Mom and Pops go out of business, I suffer some sort of set-back, and my layout or favorite engine goes down (happened right before last Christmas to me). Expect a longer wait and down time and shipping charges again.
For some of us, shipping that treasured piece is an unsettling concept. Even if insurance does cover damage or loss. How do you replace an heirloom or your first train? You can't. At least mine is sitting in a shop 6 miles from my front door and "Ralph" has it, he's holding it, and I can talk to HIM.
Earlier in this thread I wrote that moving manufacturing abroad can have significant labor and benefits cost savings. What management usually underestimates when moving the processes abroad is the initial foreseen costs of such a move. What management fails to estimate are the "alleged" unforeseen, often unfixable costs of the move. Sample foreseen costs: level of initial and ongoing but required employee training and development; number of employees required to seemlesslessly continue to meet demand; backorder-driven lost sales and market share. Sample unforeseen costs: inadequate skill and education level of the "local" labor force; language and culture barriers; communication breakdowns between engineering and manufacturing, particularly if these functions reside on different continents; reaction time during quality crises. The list goes on. But the model/toy train companies have made the plunge and are unlikely to pull the plug and move back for reasons stated in my other post.
I'm peeing up a rope here because the lowest purchase price seems to be the only thing too many people consider, ignoring the unforeseen costs of the Ma and Pops going South. I'll keep spending more 6 miles away at Northeast Trains in Peabody MASS unless/until the internet retailers and Charles Ro's shop 15 miles away in Maden MASS drives them out of business. And when Charles Ro is gone......
The cheapest purchase price is not the cheapest price. The manufacturers are not driving the Ma and Pa shops out of busines. We the customers are, by choosing the venue that offers the cheapest purchase price.
lionroar88 wrote: RT & Dep - here's the problem... where are you going to go to get your engines repaired? The modern ones you could probably send back to Lionel, but what about the Pre and Postwar stuff? What about the MPC era stuff? I guess they don't want you getting the old stuff repaired so you have to buy new stuff?But then you have the instances where Lionel has bought out K-Line and they don't provide support/repair services for the older K-Line stuff, and they can't seem to keep track of RMAs... I was at the LTS on Friday and he was telling horror stories where Lionel has RMAd stuff, people call to check on the status and one person says one thing and another tells you something different.I have a K-Line Allegheny that needs some parts and no one can provide them or fix the *** engine. Really pissing me off. I paid good money for this engine and now I can't get it fixed. Also have heard that Lionel is refusing to service a lot of the older TMCC engines claiming they can't get the boards... well if you can't get the boards and its your damned product, then put new boards in it! I would rather pay an extra $100 or so to get my stuff fixed than to be told 'we can't fix our own product - and we may never release another item like this, so you're out your money and have a nice 5lb shelf sitter'... or you could rip all the TMCC boards out that you paid extra money for and convert it to conventional...And no one can tell me MTH is better because I've had PS2 locos arrive D.O.A., sent them back to MTH, and been told 'nothing we can do for it'... WTF?!?! a PS2 loco and you can't fix it?
RT & Dep - here's the problem... where are you going to go to get your engines repaired? The modern ones you could probably send back to Lionel, but what about the Pre and Postwar stuff? What about the MPC era stuff? I guess they don't want you getting the old stuff repaired so you have to buy new stuff?But then you have the instances where Lionel has bought out K-Line and they don't provide support/repair services for the older K-Line stuff, and they can't seem to keep track of RMAs... I was at the LTS on Friday and he was telling horror stories where Lionel has RMAd stuff, people call to check on the status and one person says one thing and another tells you something different.I have a K-Line Allegheny that needs some parts and no one can provide them or fix the *** engine. Really pissing me off. I paid good money for this engine and now I can't get it fixed. Also have heard that Lionel is refusing to service a lot of the older TMCC engines claiming they can't get the boards... well if you can't get the boards and its your damned product, then put new boards in it! I would rather pay an extra $100 or so to get my stuff fixed than to be told 'we can't fix our own product - and we may never release another item like this, so you're out your money and have a nice 5lb shelf sitter'... or you could rip all the TMCC boards out that you paid extra money for and convert it to conventional...And no one can tell me MTH is better because I've had PS2 locos arrive D.O.A., sent them back to MTH, and been told 'nothing we can do for it'... WTF?!?! a PS2 loco and you can't fix it?
You heard the expression "on a slow boat from China?" Well now it applies to Lionel as well!!
What can you say except that most companies are selling out to China or Korea as labor cost are less than half of what they are in the U.S.
Lee F.
RT: I think you are dead on with your assessment. I guess it boils down to (a) would you rather have the Mom and Pop store stay in business at the expense of putting Lionel and other makers out of business because they can't make enough profit to continue production, or (b)would you rather see the train makers sell to the big companies like Charles Ro, etc and see Lionel and the other train makers stay alive and continue production. I suppose it's similar to the complaint about Walmart vs Mom and Pop stores. Personally, I have no Mom and Pop hobby shops or any hobby shops in my crummy little town. So I have no choice but to buy online. So I buy from whoever sells the cheapest and give me the best service and selection. Sometimes it's a large supplier and sometimes it's a smaller one.
Not really much anyone can do about it. "It's a sign of the times"...to quote Petula Clark.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
Here's the thing... Lionel HAS cut production. Look at all the items they have had in the catalogs that they have NOT produced over the last 8 years. My LTSs can't get Lionel product, yet the MASSIVE mail order and internet train houses are stocked. IMHO, they are killing the guys that made them who they are. I would say 99% of the stock in my LTS is stuff guys are bringing in to sell, sad, incredibly sad. I have stuff I want to preorder, but his preorders aren't arriving.I'll be sending a few more emails to Lionel in the next few days. Pretty sad when the consumer has to send complaint letters and emails about things as simple as shipping...
Jack: You almost had me believeing it....until you mentioned the internet. Poof....your theory goes up in smoke. You wouldn't even be able to expound your theory to a large train audience if it wasn't for something that is so taken for granted today...the computer. I suspect a lot of the "fascination" among kids depends on what part of the country they are brought up in as well as how much the parents are interested in them and how much time and money parents are willing to spend on kids and their education with modes of transportation. Big city kids have almost zero contact with trains. Probably because the closest thing they see to a daily train is the subway. Amtrack passenger trains have become a luxury item, where before they were a regular means of transport (before the car took over). Local interburan trains exist, but they are more a nuisance for most folks. Simplicity is the draw? Not sure you can come to that conclusion when all you or anyone you know are only exposed to simple trains. I think to reach a conclusion of simplicity vs modern, you'd have to use and show both types to kids and adults from all over the country and all walks of life. Show them ALL that can be done with a simple loco and a modern one. Obviously a very young child isn't going to appreciate all the features of a Proto 2 or Legacy loco. You could motorize a brick and clamp a whistle on it and they'll dance with glee. I am talking about kids who are old enough to appreciate the difference between simple and modern systems. I did a little "backwards math" and 5 years old is kindergarten. That's hardly an age where any kid can appreciate what modern vs simple locos can do. I was 7 when I saw my first elaborate Lionel layout (52 years ago) and it was a postwar F3 and steamer. I was in awe back then of a remote control whistle and smoke coming out of the steamer. If I hopped into a time machine back then and set it to 2008 and saw all the things trains could do today, I would probably just keel over in shock.
I think, and I think it reflects in what the train companies are producing, that making trains as realistic as possible is what is going to keep kids and adults interested in trains. Yes, there are "retro sets" being produced. But I wonder if they are aimed at "nostalgia buyers", or folks who want a little more than a basic set, but not as much as a full race Legacy or Proto setup.
Deputy wrote: .........And adults aren't going to be happy with a basic train that just goes round and round and does nothing else.
.........And adults aren't going to be happy with a basic train that just goes round and round and does nothing else.
Not quite.
I appreciate the ability of my simple loop around the Christmas tree to turn a 5 year old's imagination loose for hours each and every visit. Likewise draw 100% of the kids (all ages) in the house and 80% of the adults away from the lure of the pc, playstation 3, and hdtv and surround just 20 feet away. The other adult 20% (guys) are hopelessly addicted to the sports on tv or watching their fantasy team go down in flames monitoring stats. If I put all the beer in a bar fridge in the LR with the trains and everyone else, I'd probably get more converts.
Could it be the simplicity is the draw?
Simplicity, quality time together, and imagination are not quite dead. No encouragement required. But that's just my . I think the train companies have not lost sight of that.
The dogs have the same effect on the kids, especially those (not mine) that don't or can't have one. They'd all rather (and do) get out of the house and go for a long walk with the dogs, or play with them in the yard, than sit glued to a screen. Their choice not mine. And the dogs don't come with a remote. A significant portion of the train market may actually be in the hunt for something that simplifies fun, not complicate it.
Building a fire in the winter and just sitting there watching it is also a major draw too. Don't forget the hot chocolate and marshmallows. And I wonder why there are no glum little faces when I pull out a Grimm's Fairy Tales book and start reading aloud. The little ones (10 and under) all gravitate to the LR away from the din, with no enticement required other than the lure of an adult who pays attention to them. I'd rather be running my trains than pouring through an owners manual or website to figure out or fix something, but that's me. Sad to say, an argument with my wife is more fun than that!
My point is this. The gadgets and technology still aren't the major market draw for many in the model/toy (whatever) train market. Some of us purposely want to escape the complexity and frenzy that has become our lives. Nor are has technology become a requisite to holding one's attention and providing enjoyment, young or old.
For many of us, more (more technology and more trains) is not better. For some of us, the train hardware (and software) are secondary to the track selected, the layout, the operating accessories, the scenicing, and the ability to plug in the transformer and go.
I drive two cars, an (ancient) Corvette and a 5 year old Infinity G35 Coupe, neither one of which's gadgets replace the thrill of a 135 mph blast, a mountain twisty, a stoplight challenge, or an exit ramp at speed. The Corvette astounds me for the performance it provides 39 years after the date of manufacture. BTW, I'm out shopping on the net for my next set of grippy tires......not an MP3, satelite radio, portable Nav, or BlueTooth conversion. Do I have this stuff in one or more of my cars? Yes. Do I use them? Yes. Do they light my fire? Nope, just tools, sometimes useful, sometimes entertaining, but not the center of my enjoyment, the driving.
Jon and Rich are more interested in displacement and what (illegal) exhaust they can get away with on their motocycles, not the gadgets. BTW, the driving in the NH White mountains during a recent vacation was really fun for wife and I. The Mount Washington climb and descent on a "road" without guardrails, glancing at a sheer 1000 foot drop......technology was forgotten, except perhaps for the abs and disc brakes.
We can't all be considered neanderthal seniors hanging on the the last vestiges of "the good old days," can we?
Now if I could just get off the internet...........Having the world at my fingertips and being able to read up on anything and everything is too much for me.
Deputy wrote: I disagree with those who think that "the good old days" are the "better old days". I also disagree with the concept that American-made = the best and imports are the worst. It sure doesn't hold true in the car industry. American cars regularly score far down the customer satisfaction list and US car makers are doing all kinds of things to try and stimulate interest in their products. Yes, train companies can and do make stripped down basic toy trains for kids. But obviously there is a demand for the high end trains. Otherwise, MTH, 3rd Rail, and even Lonel wouldn't be making the $1000+ a pop items. And look at how TMCC, DCS, and now Legacy have caught on with users, including young kids. People can wax nostalgic on the old Lionel, but this is a new day and age. Just like electric starters have replaced hand crank starters on cars and trucks, state-of-the-art electronics and numerous audio and programming features have supplemented basic trains. And 0-gauge toy trains are no longer limited to a kids-only product. If the train makers don't cater to the adults who buy the trains, they are losing out on a big chunk of profit. And adults aren't going to be happy with a basic train that just goes round and round and does nothing else. People have changed and evolved and become more complex since the early 50s. Do the toy train sets that are stripped down and inexpensive sell out? Most definitely. But is it because kids prefer the stripped down version over a Legacy or Proto 2 train? I think not. I think the inexpensive train sets fill the needs of adults who can't afford or won't gamble on the investment of an expensive set. I sure wouldn't want to drop thousands on a deluxe train set to have it get pushed into a corner to make room for a Playstation 3. And some folks simply can't afford to buy a deluxe set. So they buy the inexpensive one. But that doesn't mean that kids don't like the new features on the deluxe trains. I think those new features are needed to maintian the limited attention span of the kids of today. They can sit for hours in front of a video game. So you need something to keep them occupied when you go with trains. Again...just watching them go round and round ain't gonna cut it.Will Lionel and other toy train companies stop making high end locos because of the economy? I don't think so. They may cut back on the number of high end locos introduced and produced. And that will probably increase the price as well as the value of those items. But I doubt very much you will see high end items disappear. Lionel and other companies have too much $$$ invested in Proto 2 and Legacy systems to suddenly abandon them and go back to basic F-N-R locos and low end rolling stock.Dep
I disagree with those who think that "the good old days" are the "better old days". I also disagree with the concept that American-made = the best and imports are the worst. It sure doesn't hold true in the car industry. American cars regularly score far down the customer satisfaction list and US car makers are doing all kinds of things to try and stimulate interest in their products. Yes, train companies can and do make stripped down basic toy trains for kids. But obviously there is a demand for the high end trains. Otherwise, MTH, 3rd Rail, and even Lonel wouldn't be making the $1000+ a pop items. And look at how TMCC, DCS, and now Legacy have caught on with users, including young kids. People can wax nostalgic on the old Lionel, but this is a new day and age. Just like electric starters have replaced hand crank starters on cars and trucks, state-of-the-art electronics and numerous audio and programming features have supplemented basic trains. And 0-gauge toy trains are no longer limited to a kids-only product. If the train makers don't cater to the adults who buy the trains, they are losing out on a big chunk of profit. And adults aren't going to be happy with a basic train that just goes round and round and does nothing else. People have changed and evolved and become more complex since the early 50s. Do the toy train sets that are stripped down and inexpensive sell out? Most definitely. But is it because kids prefer the stripped down version over a Legacy or Proto 2 train? I think not. I think the inexpensive train sets fill the needs of adults who can't afford or won't gamble on the investment of an expensive set. I sure wouldn't want to drop thousands on a deluxe train set to have it get pushed into a corner to make room for a Playstation 3. And some folks simply can't afford to buy a deluxe set. So they buy the inexpensive one. But that doesn't mean that kids don't like the new features on the deluxe trains. I think those new features are needed to maintian the limited attention span of the kids of today. They can sit for hours in front of a video game. So you need something to keep them occupied when you go with trains. Again...just watching them go round and round ain't gonna cut it.Will Lionel and other toy train companies stop making high end locos because of the economy? I don't think so. They may cut back on the number of high end locos introduced and produced. And that will probably increase the price as well as the value of those items. But I doubt very much you will see high end items disappear. Lionel and other companies have too much $$$ invested in Proto 2 and Legacy systems to suddenly abandon them and go back to basic F-N-R locos and low end rolling stock.Dep
I'm 19 and I don't think I have evolved that much like other people my age. I do like to play video games too, but not as much as I used to. I don't like complicated stuff, because my IQ is probably lower than most people, and it takes me a long time to learn new things. I'll just stick to what I've got because it's simple, easy, and reliable. That is one reason I would like to collect more postwar locomotives. All my trains are pretty much conventionally controlled except for one.
Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!
Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.
Moving manufacturing abroad to benefit from lower labor costs (salary), benefits, some sort of post retirement nest egg is enticing in a competitive market place. This despite the shorter-term qualified labor force issues, training, and quality challenges, and the added cost of getting the product back to the primary distribution points.
Try getting the same corporate executives to admit that the planned savings were offset by the "other" costs, not to mention a huge dent in the quality reputation that challenges sales and market share.....they can't or won't admit things haven't worked out and return the process to the U.S. They won't bite the bullet with the costs associated with a return. They won't admit to stockholders, financiers, and the Board of Directors that the move was a mistake, that things have not and will not work out long term.
Whether we are talking about model trains or life-saving medical devices and pharmaceuticals. This by and large has been and will be the trend.
Funny how these old threads pop back to the first page.
Hey, K-Line had already gone to China by 2000-01. MTH had always been either in China or Korea. When Dick Maddox announced Lionel was moving production to China, part of the reason given was that Lionel couldn't be competitive. That means one of two things: either price or product selection. Lionel's prices didn't drop much from the move to China, but new product development went ahead full speed.... that's what Maddox meant. Lionel couldn't pay American standard wages and spend the millions needed on new product development, that both MTH and K-Line were doing.
It's been written by others on this forum that we have met the enemy and the enemy is us.
How many people in this hobby today are WILLING to live with FEWER new products being made? Not many I suspect. We have become spoiled and spoiled rotten. And the nasty competitive nature of the company's making the trains hasn't helped. There have been more newly tooled train products made in the past 15 years than in the previous 75 years of the hobby. Yet it is STILL not enough. Remember, when the train companies were in the states, it was just one new locomotive introduced every few years if not longer. Yet at the time, that was good enough.
There are always posts on the other forums about what new products the train importers MUST make, as if the posters were ordering new train products like hamburgers from the drive-thru. And then when the product gets made, look out because here comes the criticism that the rivet count is wrong. Even Jerry Calabrese said Lionel cannot continue making totally new high end steam locomotives that they end up losing money on.
Do I wish the trains could still be made here in the US, which would benefit our own neighbors someplace? Absolutely. But I don't count rivets or worry about chuff rates. I use the very best, most reliable control system that has ever been developed: conventional! My tastes in trains are simple and I truly enjoy them.... I'm not missing not one thing. And my kinds of trains don't cost the train companies millions to put into production.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
traindaddy1 wrote: Berk765 wrote: I guess it's okay with me. As long as the quality is still good and the prices stay as low as possible. On one hand, the quality and price are important factors.On the other hand, these are really tough economic times and sometimes I wonder, if maybe, the corporate world should "bite-the-bullet" and in some way support the domestic work force.BUT, that is an entirely different subject AND I certainly am no expert.It seems more and more difficult to find reasonably priced 'non-China made' products in the retail market. Personally, I would not leave Lionel. After all is said and done, we are talking about a "Hobby" where, for the most part, discretionary funds come into play.Again, only an opinion. Thanks for reading.
Berk765 wrote: I guess it's okay with me. As long as the quality is still good and the prices stay as low as possible.
I guess it's okay with me. As long as the quality is still good and the prices stay as low as possible.
On one hand, the quality and price are important factors.
On the other hand, these are really tough economic times and sometimes I wonder, if maybe, the corporate world should "bite-the-bullet" and in some way support the domestic work force.
BUT, that is an entirely different subject AND I certainly am no expert.
It seems more and more difficult to find reasonably priced 'non-China made' products in the retail market.
Personally, I would not leave Lionel. After all is said and done, we are talking about a "Hobby" where, for the most part, discretionary funds come into play.
Again, only an opinion. Thanks for reading.
Maybe if this trend continues we should all learn Chinese and move to China rather than remain in whats becoming a third world country.
It was interesting to find and look at some of the old threads and what we were talking about back then. This had some of my views in it but back then my views were I would only buy trains made before the move from now on . Alas I'm now buying made in china trains as I'm using TMCC items on my new to be layout I still have some of my older trains and probally will sell some and keep the ones I really like.
This was a heart breaking news to a lot of us. Just as we all thought we were going to here some good news a couple of months ago when some one quoted Niel Young saying watch for happening in N.J. in the future.
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