Lionel's Judgement Day

[Anonymous]

Sounds bad for the Lion, see newspaper link:

http://macombdaily.com/stories/102104/loc_lionel001.shtml

-Tinplate Jeff [:(]

[eZAK]

Bankruptcy is an option, But not the end of Lionel.

Just a way to hide their loses.

[3railguy]

My prediction is the Union pacific Railroad will buy out Lionel (41,000,000 is pocket change to this multi billion dollar railroad). This is why I believe they began litigating their logo suddenenly. They saw this MTH/Lionel lawsuit and decided to add a straw to the camel's back. By owning Lionel, the UP will be able to put UP starter sets in every American home making their name a byword once again. The UP would also be able to give Lionel exclusive rights to the UP logo. The UP could also give Lionel exclusive rights to UP designed equipment such as harriman designs. The UP may have their eyes on TMCC. A great system for their yards. TMCC requires an outside grounded rail. Something they already have.

[highrailjon]

3railguy, [:D][:D][:D]

[Buckeye Riveter]

3railguy you forgot one thing. By UP getting their starter sets in every home, CSX and NS are forced to sell out and the UP becomes the first truly trans continental railroad system. Prices for everything traveling by rail skyrockets. There are food shortages and DVD shortages of Jennifer Lopez concerts. [:(] Riots break out in the streets. [:(] Anarchy prevails across the land. [:(] The government collapses. [:(] America is divided up between Mexico, Canada, Cuba and the Virgin Islands. [:(] (Ohio becomes part of Canada and our fish are all taken captive. North Carolina becomes part of the Virgin Islands and the Chief is forced into selling carved wooden trinkets on the streets of Rosyville.)

Needless to say, I think Lionel better get off of their butts and start working to prevent this situation. [:)]

BTW, the French claim Cleveland. [:D]

[spankybird]

Well in that case, Cleveland will patient FRENCH FRYS [:D][}:)][:D]and sue McD’s and BK.[:0][:0] We won’t let anyone else make them. [B)][:p][:p][:D]

[MartyE]

I don't see any problem with letting the French have Cleveland. [:D]

[3railguy]

QUOTE: 3rdrailguy you forgot one thing.......................

Buckey, LOL! it's 3railguy but 3rdrailguy sounds better. Jlong was used by someone else when I registered. So I had to think of something!

[daan]

Probably some hero drives a toytrain into the headquarters of UP to spread a computer virus... I don't think Lionel will die, it's just making a new start after the UP and MTH claims..

[Anonymous]

Just remember that andy said they had a lawsuit coming up with qsi. That could mean that qsi could end up owining mth. Not a bad idea as qsi would also own DCS.
When there are patent infringements in their dcs system that were taken from qsi;s three rail design, that could be a bigger disaster to mth than what has happened to lionel.
I know what the patentent infringements are but am not at liberty to discuss them. Lets just say it looks dull for MTH.
dave.

[Anonymous]

Maybe *** Maddox will run to everybody's rescue.
romiller

[iguanaman3]

I may be naive about the specifics of this case but Lionel must find it bitterly ironic that MTH, the company that was created by copying Lionel products, now stands to destroy Lionel for copying some parts on a few locos?. And where did that $41 millon figure come from? How many of those pirated locos were sold? The judge in this case obviously is not aware of the widespread piracy in asian factories. Believe me, making "knockoffs" of copyrighted products is the norm there. Unless there is hard evidence that Lionel management instigated the theft, I can't imagine why the punishment is so harsh. The first thing Lionel needs to do is get some new laywers.

[Anonymous]

Everyone just take it easy. After all....." It ain't over 'till
the Fat Lady sings." And she ain't sung yet. There's
still plenty of litigation ahead before the final report
is made. There's another appeals process that Lionel
can resort to, there's bankruptcy, there's even still an
opportunity for an out-of-court settlement that might
be attractive to both parties.

We just have to be patient, watch, wait and not listen
to all the rumor-mongering.

My 2c

[AlanRail]

No, it is pretty much over, unless the judge rules differently in 2 weeks.

In order to make this appeal, WellSprings bonded the $41 mil. That means that once the Michigan Supreme Ct refuses to hear the matter; which they may do because both the trial court and the appeals court agree with the verdict; MTH gets paid from the bonding co, assuming WellSprings can't pay.

WellSprings must then surrender the assets to the bonding co. that were used as collateral for the appeals bond OR just pay MTH. This is where the bankruptcy comes in. After selling the assets, not much is left of the company.

The next appeal after the Michigan Supreme Ct. refuses to hear it, is the U.S. Supreme Ct. However, it is really unlikely that the U.S. Supreme Ct will hear the matter and instead let stand the lower court ruling. The reason is that there is little constitutional issues to be decided as the Michigan Copyright Act is not disimilar to others in other states across the country, as it is modeled after the federal law.

Now if the Michigan S. Ct does hear the matter and rules against MTH; then MTH can try to appeal it to the U.S. Supreme Ct.; As an out-of-state litigant, the U.S. Supreme Ct. may decide to hear MTH's side because of the politics in the Michigan S. Ct..... Maybe.

Alan

[spankybird]

Alan,

I believe this will go to the Federal Court of Appeals, not the Michigan Supreme Ct. as this was tried in Federal Court not Michigan State courts.

[AlanRail]

SB

your right it was in Federal Distr Ct . So US Court of Appeals is next BEFORE the Supreme Court. and not the Michigan Supreme Ct.

The Federal District judge refused to reconsider and set aside the jury verdict. By itself not as bad as I thought.

The USCA in appeal, may rule that the District Judge was a fault by allowing in evidence that doubled part of the damages, thus reducing the amount. We need to wait to see what happens in the appeal there.

Meaning that we still need to hear the fat lady sing.

Alan

[Anonymous]

IT's a sad day when Lionel the company that brough O gauge model trains to what they are today is given $41 million in punitive damages for a few parts on a few locos that were alegedly stolen fro MTH. Sounds like a plot by MTH to destroy it's main competitor. .DId MTH suffer the loss of $41 million in sales becuase of this issue? MTH annual sales are far less than this so how can they claim $41 million in damages? . Friends , this is insanity by a court system out of control.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Several years supposedly equals $41M of lost revenue. I'm not sure if one can collect punitive damages in a federal court. [?][?] Did MTH have much pain and mental anquish? [:D] A million here, a million there and before long you have some real money. [:)]

Alan's post about the Federal District judge not wanting to vacate the verdict of the jury is correct. This action from the accounts was not the appeal, but a vacation of the verdict. That is, the Lion said, "Hey judge ol' boy you don't know how to run your court and you didn't treat us right and would you do us the favor of saying the verdict from the jury was not right." And the judge answered, "I think not! Do you think I'm stupid?" And the Lion answered, "Now that you brought it up, yes." And the Lion bought more time from the date of the verdict until the deadline for an appeal. (I believe the first question an appeals court might ask is, "Did you ask the presiding judge if he thought the verdict was okay?")

From the news accounts, the judge is now reviewing a motion for an injunction from MTH to stop the Lion from making, distributing, selling, giving away, (you take your pick) something that has to do with some engine or part.

He will return in two weeks and tell us if he will uphold the injunction. Until then stay tuned for more fun and excitement right here at the CTT forum. [:)][8D][:)][8D]

BTW, the Lion's attorneys probable have some 30, 60, 90 or 120 time frame after the verdict to appeal to someplace up the line like a Federal Court of Appeals that handles appeals from this and other Federal District Courts. This is why things drag on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Been there, done that.

[AlanRail]

Punitive Damages;

Who said anything about that!!

This is a copyright and trade secrets infringement case. The damages are stautory ( under the copyright act, plaintiff is entitled to an upper limit for each occurance) and for lost revenue of MTH that Lionel must return AND additional lost revenue If Lionel was not marketing those trains at the same time; if not then MTH's trains would have been worth more and MTH could have charged us more;; see that the screwy thing about the verdict amount.

In no way could MTH have earned in profit from several locos 20-30 million. And dont blame the judge because he is ruling on the arguments presented by Lionel and MTH. The MTH argument must be stronger.

Alan

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AlanRail

Punitive Damages;

Who said anything about that!!...............................................

Alan

The post above mine.[^] And like you I couldn't see punitive damages in a Federal Court for an infringment or trade secrets case.

[espeefoamer]

Old Joshua Cowen is turning over in his grave[:(].

[spankybird]

As already reported by CTT, the breakdown was:

QUOTE: By CTT
MTH reported the breakdown as follows: MTH's past lost profits $11,978,887.00, MTH's future lost profits $13,794,598.00, Lionel unjust enrichment $12,834,820.00, and Korea Brass and Yoo Chan Yang unjust enrichment $2,167,440.00.

Here is the link

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/005/196ppdsg.asp

tom

[3railguy]

[In no way could MTH have earned in profit from several locos 20-30 million. And dont blame the judge because he is ruling on the arguments presented by Lionel and MTH. The MTH argument must be stronger.
/quote]

I agree. It is near impossible to calculate a fair number. MTH may of lost some sales in this matter but competition from Atlas and K-Line took away MTH sales too - legal to boot. .

John Long Give me Magnetraction or give me Death.

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