Personally, I'll buy Chinese made products before I'd even think about buying another union made product. I won't go into exactly why here. As far as trains go, I buy PW and current. I won't buy MPC, LTI, or LLC before the move.
wallyworld Would you be willing to pay more for model railroad equipment if it were made in the U.S versus China? I am not referring to Korea where a great deal were formerly made. . I keep hearing quality problems coming from China and I think of all the unemployed folks here, that I am sure would do a first rate job. This question coincides with some recent reading I was doing about the history of production of trains in the U.S.. The question is: Would you be willing to pay a somewhat higher cost that I presume would result from this? I don't want the question interpreted to be a political post, just a simple question..My own answer is yes.
Would you be willing to pay more for model railroad equipment if it were made in the U.S versus China? I am not referring to Korea where a great deal were formerly made. . I keep hearing quality problems coming from China and I think of all the unemployed folks here, that I am sure would do a first rate job. This question coincides with some recent reading I was doing about the history of production of trains in the U.S.. The question is: Would you be willing to pay a somewhat higher cost that I presume would result from this? I don't want the question interpreted to be a political post, just a simple question..My own answer is yes.
Hmmmm...you are going to have to define "somewhat higher cost" for US-made stuff. And I have seen plenty of US-made stuff that is real junk. I don't automatically equate US-made with quality. Not any more. When you factor in union wages and benefits and all the other production costs involved in US production of an item, I don't see how it can be competitive. Plus you have to look at the actual market for toy trains. This is not exactly the "golden years" of trains like it was in the postwar and earlier times. Used to be a kid got all excited seeing a train, and getting stopped at a crossing while a train crossed the road was an adventure in figuring out where each boxcar came from. Now, the kids get mad because they are being delayed from going to their soccer game (what the heck IS soccer???) or going to the mall to buy the latest video game. There are rare exceptions, of course. But to cite them means you are looking through tinted/biased glasses.
Virginian Railroad
Can I have a bite?
fifedog Wally, you deserve a cookie.
Wally, you deserve a cookie.
Good thread. Good input. Starting to answer our own questions about the subject. Wally, you deserve a cookie.
balidas That is a powerful and perhaps scary statement. Tower49: but government has regulated the US Production of Goods into a corner, and unitl we change that
That is a powerful and perhaps scary statement.
Tower49: but government has regulated the US Production of Goods into a corner, and unitl we change that
The other side of this is that we import everything with little restriction and yet we go to export into China, etc, we are blocked or worse, copyright laws are not respected. To me overseas manufacturing in the bigger picture is just making a ridiculous state of affairs worse, toy trains or what not regardless of the other attendant issues such as quality and substandard materials, fit and finish. We could do much better here and in this economy nobody is looking for $40,00 an hour. Overseas manufacturing is also subsidized by the state...level playing field? No environmental regulations? If we did not work ourselves into a debt with them..well..now we have nothing to bargain with. In a sense, to be fair, what are manufacturers supposed to do? It's a very bad situation.The cost of living adjustments to wages are so far behind here in comparison to inflationary costs, pretty soon a lock-on will be the equivalent of $100.00...and folks will buy them, but the market has to shrink, hence if our expectations aren't lowered by the manufacturers, most hobbyists will be locked out..heck..it's happening now. I have to get back to fixing my dishwasher..good example, the plastic pump vanes just disintegrated..two years old.. a piece of overpriced junk...
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Tower49 but government has regulated the US Production of Goods into a corner, and unitl we change that
The real way to capture the market is to have a local hobby shop that produces model railroad, highway tractors & trailers, shipping containers, and automobiles on the premises using 3-Dimensional printing and sterolithography for small custom runs from a large catalog of designs.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
I used the 15 year mark - I believe that their (MTH's and probably K-Line's) production had been moved to Asia prior to my arriving at CTT - hence the "Status quo."
But I might be wrong. Regardless, it doesn't seem to have been an issue for most people until Lionel moved overseas.
I'd like to see them all produce in the US, but they won't unless is makes sense for the company, and the consumers probably won't follow if you're talking prices much in excess of what you see now.
Bob Keller
Here, Here, Eleventh Street:
Our U.S. companies do indeed, pay the highest corporate tax rate. Fifeboy won't say it, but I will: You just can't have the UAW assembling trains in Mt. Clemens, Mich. for $40/hr, and expect to sell them at an affordable price. During the Kuhgn Regime at Lionel, someone once commented in CTT that "it's tough when a millionaire owns the candy store" - I never forgot that.
I don't like our stuff being made in China as much as anyone, but government has regulated the US Production of Goods into a corner, and unitl we change that, I'll continue to buy my trains for the best price I can find, regardless of where they come from.
The question is not the "willingness to pay more" for US built trains, but rather to make US train companies competitive with foreign builders. Paying more money for something that you can get cheaper elsewhere, just to "feel good" is foolishness.
I for one am not buying the new stuff. I cillect post war, I know where it was produced and the quality. I was int he market for a diesel switcher and went to York,Pa. the TCA convention as i looked around a fellow showed me a K Line switcher. It looked good I liked that it had a bell anf horn sound so I decided to give it a try. A couple years later I finished my layout and gave the new switcher a try. It went across a turn out and derailed, before the ckt breaker in the transformer could open or me get to the engine I saw smoke. It melted the bottom of the enging where the pick up rollers are attached. Its no good now. I have an old Lionel 624 that i use as a test engine for new track. Its been through the fire so to speak and is still just as good as the day lionel made it. They can make the new stuff where they want I will stick to my post war trains.
Ogaugeoverlord This is actually pretty status quo. I may well be wrong, but I believe that the only O gauge mfgr that moved overseas in the last 15 years was Lionel - and that was a decade ago. I sure never heard anyone at Lionel say they were doing it to lower consumer costs, and we ran a quote from Dick Maddox addressing that - he said their products were already competitively priced. I don't think most readers thought that at the time, but he had bosses to answer to. I suspect that if it is in their financial interest to move back to the U.S. (or Thailand, or Rwanda) they will. In recent years most of the mfgr reps I've spoken to and this came up suggested that only something cataclysmic would cause this. I always figured that was shorthand for war, not the rise of a middle class in China and rises in labor and material costs. You could get every magazine in every scale or gauge in the U.S. calling for mfgrs to return to the U.S., but unless the bottom line numbers work, it won't happen.
This is actually pretty status quo. I may well be wrong, but I believe that the only O gauge mfgr that moved overseas in the last 15 years was Lionel - and that was a decade ago.
I sure never heard anyone at Lionel say they were doing it to lower consumer costs, and we ran a quote from Dick Maddox addressing that - he said their products were already competitively priced. I don't think most readers thought that at the time, but he had bosses to answer to.
I suspect that if it is in their financial interest to move back to the U.S. (or Thailand, or Rwanda) they will. In recent years most of the mfgr reps I've spoken to and this came up suggested that only something cataclysmic would cause this. I always figured that was shorthand for war, not the rise of a middle class in China and rises in labor and material costs.
You could get every magazine in every scale or gauge in the U.S. calling for mfgrs to return to the U.S., but unless the bottom line numbers work, it won't happen.
Bob,
I was under the impression that MTH made both their standard gauge and O product lines overseas as well, not just Lionel as you commented as well it was "status quo". There are exceptions to this that are known. I think you missed the point in a sense brought up by fifedog, we don't necessarily think that a ad hoc petition would change this situation, but it would be interesting to hear both the upside and downside of this from those that make the products that we purchase, as without us, there is no business, which seems to also be reflected in the lack of real feedback from us, or a venue for it from the manufacturers, not so much what do you want? but heres what you get.... which seems to fly in the face of modern business models..Again all of this is prompted by curiosity as well as it being a part of the hobby history now, not post editorially.
Historically, production of these items has shifted from continent to continent, country to country and this Chinese, and Korean etc history is no exception. If this were folded into a article with some interviews it would make for some interesting reading.
Bob Keller - If CTT editorialized (it was mentioned) on this matter, I don't recall. Folks are simply wondering out loud here about the causes and effects . It might be uncomfortable for the people at the helm of the big manufacturers to answer, but as journalists, couldn't our favorite periodical ask for us?
Penny Trains In the grandest scheme of things I have nothing but admiration and respect for anyone that has a job and feeds their family. No matter where they live. Becky
In the grandest scheme of things I have nothing but admiration and respect for anyone that has a job and feeds their family. No matter where they live.
Becky
Becky,
As long as personal freedom and liberty is present for these families I agree, as far as where my money goes. You can infer the rest. By the way, the ship is called Royal or Royal something or other. She is a "new" old ship much in the same sense as the A! Tornado. Speaking of international...Check this video out..high driver-ed A! at speed roaring through a crowded station of fans..at night.Looks like the operating speed on my layout.
watch?v=xF2Jgg1LpzU&feature=related
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
billbarman Back on the topic of Toy trains, it is a known fact that itmes produced here are usually better quality in general if not on the higher end of a company's product line. Why doesnt say... Lionel make all of its starter sets and things not ment to be masterpieces that collectors probably will not bother with in China and make only the vision and maybe even standard O line in the United states/ I dont think parents looking to buy their child a first train set will really care too much about where the train was made as opposed to us toy train buffs who know of the days of the lionel corperation... or maybe leave production in china for the most part of proudce the conventional classics here in the U.S. to make it even more authentic to the postwar days. I don't think they should move the whole line of production over to the United States, but they should at least produce some range of products here other then boxcars that were just assembled here...
Back on the topic of Toy trains, it is a known fact that itmes produced here are usually better quality in general if not on the higher end of a company's product line.
Why doesnt say... Lionel make all of its starter sets and things not ment to be masterpieces that collectors probably will not bother with in China and make only the vision and maybe even standard O line in the United states/ I dont think parents looking to buy their child a first train set will really care too much about where the train was made as opposed to us toy train buffs who know of the days of the lionel corperation...
or maybe leave production in china for the most part of proudce the conventional classics here in the U.S. to make it even more authentic to the postwar days.
I don't think they should move the whole line of production over to the United States, but they should at least produce some range of products here other then boxcars that were just assembled here...
I know that being originally from the Chicago area, I was surprised to learn of the old American Flyer factory being there as part of the city history and then long having moved to N.C, home of the late, lamented K Line, I think it is unfortunate that this stuff is sort of a homeless hybrid of sorts and as a result being really simply a U.S design \ distribution operation, but looking at everything in sum total that is sold here, perhaps it is sort of a romantic folly..there is really no sense of place to things..even Detroit..like Elgin Ill once known for watches, or Milwaukee for beer, or Pittsburgh for steel,, Chicago for Schwinn Bikes etc. Having my life span these changes, politics aside, having something, anything made here to be now rued by the guys in the show, American Pickers as they go through piles of rust and so with having seen this vanish as part of my personal history...Trains made in China...thanks but no thanks. It's simply a personal choice for things that have a link to American history which is a part of our heritage..Lionel Cohen, Louis Marx, A.C Gilbert..uniquely all American entrepreneurs..no one even comes close..these days to their inventive lines of stuff for kids, from Big Wheels to Erector Sets to yes, toy trains, each was unique..in comparison even the most expensive toy train that now has a sort of generic place-less quality to it.. .
I fully admit to being a crank on the subject as Chinese imitations of American classics don't float my boat.... In the future, will there be a market for Chinese Classic Toy Trains? At my age, who cares? That is for a younger generation. Political issues wont be solved on a toy train forum for heavens sake. Ive said my piece and nothing said here has dissuaded me that making trains here again is a good idea. In all honesty, probably no logical argument would.
Part of the issue is labor & tax cost but another very important part of the equation is the current environmental regulations at both the state and federal level. When it comes to manufacturing the U.S. has become very business un-friendly and the State of Ca. is even worse.
In a vast majority of the "new product" I am already and have been priced out of the market for some time. Thank goodness for E-Bay and some of the other auction houses.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
www.sd3r.org
Proud New Member Of The NRA
"No childhood should be without a train!"
Unions and GE corporate taxes are a bit beyond the scope of this thread. Just a reminder to stay focused, lest flaming get started. These threads usually end badly.
Good point, Andrew,
Ralph
Andrew Falconer If a corporation has the right accountants and lawyers, that corporation can get out of paying the corporate taxes. General Electric can get out of paying corporate taxes. Perhaps General Electric could mass produce O Scale and O gauge model railroad equipment. Andrew
If a corporation has the right accountants and lawyers, that corporation can get out of paying the corporate taxes. General Electric can get out of paying corporate taxes. Perhaps General Electric could mass produce O Scale and O gauge model railroad equipment.
Ouch. It can be painful to scratch an itch.
Wally,It 'sounds' wonderful. The problem is assembly. I don't necessarily believe the companies are saving a whole lot on manufacturing because most of that is done with either injection molders or automated machinery. The problem is assembly, if you have 100 workers on the line that earn $5.00/hr and crank out 1000 units per day that comes out to an assembly cost of $20 per unit. I doubt HIGHLY you will find 100 workers in the US willing to work for $5.00/hr (our minimum wage is higher than that already!). It is also cheaper to opperate plants in China as their government controls the cost of fuel and electricity, the land is cheaper and the construction materials are less expensive. Shipping from China to the US is done in supersized ocean liners that carry 1,000s of shipping containers - and you pay by container, not weight if memory serves me correctly. So that cost is relatively fixed as well (at least from a cost calculation standpoint).This is why so many US companies are moving their opperations overseas. The Corporate Tax rate here in the US is somewhere around 38% on revenues, then you have payroll taxes (the company pays 1/2 of your SS and Medicare taxes), the list goes on and on. If you were to levy Import and Export taxes those costs would simply be passed on to customers - why? Because they can - it is called Price Inflation. The cost of manufacturing and assembly remains constant. The ONLY way this will EVER change is if other Countries were to implement the same 'base costs' that our Government has, Minimum Wage, SS/Medicare taxes, income tax, corporate tax, etc, etc.
I suppose only the chief operating officers know both the upside and the down side of manufacturing overseas. By subcontracting a product's production certainly cuts down on the costs of fixed assets, and on the other hand, there are quality and transportation costs which cannot be insignificant, as well as communication and coordination issues as well as delays. All of this is sort of a microcosm of the larger world and brings home the issues of how one views the future. This hobby began with items made in Germany that were eliminated as an effect of WW1, then the whole hobby seemingly vanished due to material supply shortages in WW2, and then faced the decline of the railroads themselves and being out of fashion, which in my mind poses a greater challenge as the decline of the hobby in the postwar years was rejuvenated by a nostalgia factor, based on demographics, as the economic indicators predict a bumpy ride ahead simply to get back to square one. At the same time, maximizing profit is the name of the game in the midst of uncertainty, yet I cannot help but think that an investment and a vote of confidence in the future is just what we and the hobby itself needs. Remember when Mexico was the "go to place"? I cannot help but think that China, sooner or later, will be problematic beyond quality issues. The stability of the hobby largely depends on international politics, then and now, which in these times, if anything, are unpredictable.
The engineering Marx accomplished with less is exemplified with the #1998 switcher that looks as if it has two four wheel trucks. Turn it upside down and it has a simple four wheel drive with the additional front wheels being articulated. Ingenious in my book. .
If I had the wherewithal, I would begin making simple and very colorful tinplate here for adults. The engineering would be based on Marx as making more with less. Simple motors, inexpensive materials but reliable and easily repairable.Affordability. I would put some folks to work here by undercutting the current costs of the low end, which is not so low. What can be done with lithography alone is a whole subject in of itself, which has yet to reappear in the market.
Phillyreading The parts are made here and there in the us and I believe if memory serves me correctly that there actually being assembled in N.J. I believe around where Lionel had a plant before. Close but not same location.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
In PA you UE benefits are based off your last 3? paychecks prior to claiming UE. They include OT in that calculation. The guys were working 50 - 60 hour weeks to get orders out based on quotes from the salesmen, when the orders stopped coming, the work wasn't there.
I would have liked to have known thier secret for doing that. I was lucky to collect half of what I used to make when I was on unemployment.
lionroar88.There are a lot of US Workers who are making more on Unemployment than they were making working a 40 hour week, so there is little incentive for them to want to return to work. My sister's company is having this very problem. Their orders are increasing and they need to bring machinists back, but they don't want to come back because they are making the same or more than they were when they were working and they can do it without actually doing anything.
It a sad day when you can make more on unemployement than in the work force. when large companies make huge profits and expect their workers to live below the poverty level. then move off shore to get labor from sweat shops and still rape the public and the us economy its pretty lame.
Do US Workers care about US Companies? I think it is a two way street.The move over seas was to reduce manufacturing costs and increase profits, not keep prices down.There are a lot of US Workers who are making more on Unemployment than they were making working a 40 hour week, so there is little incentive for them to want to return to work. My sister's company is having this very problem. Their orders are increasing and they need to bring machinists back, but they don't want to come back because they are making the same or more than they were when they were working and they can do it without actually doing anything.
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