Would you be willing to pay more for model railroad equipment if it were made in the U.S versus China? I am not referring to Korea where a great deal were formerly made. . I keep hearing quality problems coming from China and I think of all the unemployed folks here, that I am sure would do a first rate job. This question coincides with some recent reading I was doing about the history of production of trains in the U.S.. The question is: Would you be willing to pay a somewhat higher cost that I presume would result from this? I don't want the question interpreted to be a political post, just a simple question..My own answer is yes.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Well for a complete answer you have to remember Some of weaver still are and some (very few acually basicly some boxcars) of Lionel are again being made here in the U.S. basicly for the same price of the ones from china, so it tells me it probably can be done for about the same money. Now engines maybe theres the difference but I think I would be also willing to Pay a little more if these compaines would bring back there production to the U.S.
Yes
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
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Are we talking about plastic products & trucks (ie boxcars) that are really made over there and simply assembled, packaged & wholesale distributed from here? And what of the QA problems plaguing the hobby? Are we talking about a lifetime, return to USA factory warranty like Bachmann/Williams already offers on their operating products? And where/who will be making the electronic circuit boards and how long will replacement parts be stocked?
I might be willing to pay closer to list if those type of questions become answered to the benefit of end consumer/users. Not! if the move becomes merely a marketing ploy and otherwise toy train business as usual .
11th Street Are we talking about plastic products & trucks (ie boxcars) that are really made over there and simply assembled, packaged & wholesale distributed from here? And what of the QA problems plaguing the hobby? Are we talking about a lifetime, return to USA factory warranty like Bachmann/Williams already offers on their operating products? And where/who will be making the electronic circuit boards and how long will replacement parts be stocked? I might be willing to pay closer to list if those type of questions become answered to the benefit of end consumer/users. Not! if the move becomes merely a marketing ploy and otherwise toy train business as usual .
he didn't say by which manufacture and for some of your questions you don't get it now so I don't see it happening in the future.
Marketing the electronic circuit boards I'm sure could be done here too. But again the cost but to me I guess I'm dumb but I can't believe the cost to pack , ship, pay import tariff's actually can make the products that more cheaper then made here. they claimed to make the product more cost effective they were moving well to me it didn't do anything for the consumers here as the prices have steadily gone up so how much would it have gone up if it didn't go over there and how much is there present profit margin and a Item do they really need that much to keep things going or is it just greediness by all of them as it seems they each see who can do a higher price item than the other.
To me this is something Weaver, Lionel, And MTH need to look hard at and decide. I leave Bachmann out as they are and always have been to my knowledge been an out of company producer.
I would buy toy train products made in America, even at higher cost.
Lionel is no longer the Lionel we knew from the 1940's to the day it was sold to the current owners. The quality may be still good, but there is still a loss of pride in ownership of a piece 'Made in China" as far as I am concerned.
It would appear that we are paying significantly more for items made overseas today, when the manufacturers reasoned that their moves were cost cutting measures...
Part of the original problems LIONEL had to deal with were union salaries and legacy fees. Not going down that slippery slope further here...
I believe that competitive labor can be had right here in the U.S. (not including North America...again 'nuther slippery slope). Will the manufacturers be willing to lower their higher-ups bottom lines...?
Aside from the quality issues in model trains, shortly after asking this question in a public forum, I went over to the RYPN (Railway preservation News )website only to find a thread concerning quality issues with 1:1 prototype parts and mechanical attachments used in steam locomotive restorations, etc that came from China. Substandard materials. Not only in trains.
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31105
One of the more nonsensical engineering issues that David Wardale found ( In the Red Devil book) when he went there to design a contemporary locomotive was that they had condensation piped right to the rail head from the boiler. Another thread ( at OGR) was discussing quality issues that have bled over to fit and finish on standard gauge cars, chipped paint, etc...I think this is an issue of subcontracting and no on site quality rep. It seems they come over in containers..flawed and get shipped as they are so to speak. The only way perhaps this will change if they get enough returns...or complaints..one fellow had a long list of defects and simply fixed them himself. I wonder how many others have done this?
Remember ( for those of us old enough) when "made in japan " was equated to shoddy goods? They certainly turned that around but they were designed to be shoddy as in cheaply made whereas this stuff is not designed to have a short shelf life. This was one of many reasons I went to Marx ( not the only one) as this stuff is 50-60 years old designed to be cheap and runs after just some cleaning and lubrication. When I had a MTH GG1 and a GP7 fry due to bad boards..that was the turning point.....I think Lionel bringing some production back here is terrific.
I would love to see model trains made in the USA. Currently, I think that Weaver is the only one made in the USA. Lionel might be making some things here in the USA, but I can't say one way or the other, as I don't have any information.
About two years ago this was true; most of the other companies; Lionel, K-Line, MTH, Bachmann/Williams, have gone to China, and buy from holding companies like Sanda Kan or Kader. MTH at one time had a deal with a south Korean company.
With the way the unemployment situation is in this country, people should be willing to work for closer to minimum wage and that will help to keep costs down. Shipping from China has to cost a bundle as well.
Lee F.
Seems to me everyone here is waiting for someone else to decided to make the products they want in the USA. Why not start a new company here? Why not be the next Maury Klein, Steven Ross or Mike Wolf?
Seems to me there are a lot of people in this hobby with some amazing engineering and design abilities. And I'm sure someone has some kind of business background. Seems to me there also are a lot of people in this hobby with sufficient funds to invest in such a company.
I'd be tempted to try this myself, but I lack sufficient capital, and to be perfectly honest, lack the business acumen to do this.
phillyreading...Lionel might be making some things here in the USA, but I can't say one way or the other, as I don't have any information...
Here you go - click HERE.
Rob
The big improvement in my mind would be the kinds of in-house quality and quantity control U.S. production would offer. I can't tell you how many times I've searched and searched before I found an item in-stock that I wanted to buy. Most of the time I heard that there was a shipping delay or that a production run had been sent back because of quality control issues. Only rarely have I ever heard that a shipment is on-time. So having Lionel back to using the old model of being all under one roof would cut a lot of those problems down to size. And while I'm no economist I'd imagine that customer satisfaction in this instant gratification world of the 21st century would outweigh any savings gained from overseas labor costs.
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
The prices of both U.S. Made Weaver Models and China made Lionel have both risen quite a bit since 1995. So we are already paying more than we would have 10 years ago.
What about models of Canadian specific Locomotives and Freight Cars being produced in Canada?
Andrew Falconer
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
List prices for scale rolling stock is hovering around $80 now for Chinese imports, so I doubt I would be interested in anything priced above that watermark. Traditional rolling stock listed at $40 to $50 for 6464 type boxcars, no thank-you.
Lionel has cracked the stratosphere for $800 diesels and $1700 steamers at list prices for their top catalog offerings, glad I accumulated my stuff before this wave of overpriced electric trains hit the shelves.
Bill T.
Wally World said;
Remember ( for those of us old enough) when "made in japan " was equated to shoddy goods? They certainly turned that around but they were designed to be shoddy as in cheaply made whereas this stuff is not designed to have a short shelf life. This was one of many reasons I went to Marx ( not the only one) as this stuff is 50-60 years old designed to be cheap and runs after just some cleaning and lubrication.
As a child I had what my parents bought (and one Uncle). My uncle came back from Europe at the end of WWII and bought me a Marx set which I played with until my father decided on American Flyer several years later. He sold AF sets at Christmas time at his Pure Oil Station. Thus Flyer became my hobby choice.
Since my move in 1998, I went back to Marx for the exact reasons Wally stated. "I went to Marx ( not the only one) as this stuff is 50-60 years old designed to be cheap and runs after just some cleaning and lubrication. " On my layout I have much selection and enjoyment.
Since I wish to display in my two offices toy trains that operate. Flyer is simply to expensive to take the risk of being damaged. Marx got the nod.
Jim and Debbie Flynn started a new Marx Company but for reasons unknown to me, it did not do as well as many had hoped for, I think part of the problem was the hobby shps being overly cautious as I could not find the products for sale.
Just my 2c
The solution to the problem of country of manufacture origin of consumer products (and associated jobs) is the same for toy trains as it is for all other products sold in the US. When the corporate tax code is rewritten to make it more tax costly to manufacture and import products sold here than it is to make those same products here & sell them here, then little will change in this overall situation.
Who pays what & who financially benefits is an academic definition of politics. Every thing else that goes on is nothing but noise, the purpose of which is to mask the financial issues in play. Now lets see a raise of hands: who is willing to vote in and hold responsible politicians that will make corporate US tax code changes happen?
My concern is with quality assurance as well as service, and then the ready availability of parts, etc that does not rely on the containerization of proverbially, these things having "to round the horn" as if we were in the 18th century and we still use clipper ships..( which would probably be faster, ironically enough) and so Lionel has begun to make some of their products here, as other manufacturers certainly do without a major reworking of tax codes. The politics of toy trains is well, asking for a divisive fulcrum and I won't go there, as I am simply stating , as a customer, a preference, not so much of an agenda.. I do understand your issue and agree, but since this is not a political forum, I decline to go that route. Ah, wind power second only to steam power, in my book. Hoist the jib, here comes a load of toys for good girls and boys." She's as pretty as a picture."
Just out of curiosity, what's the name of the beautiful 3-master in the pic?
(And yes, I know it's so don't or )
Interesting that Lionel will be making part of a boxcar near Philadelphia PA, and other parts in other places around the USA.
On another note, I know that I would be discouraged from buying something from somebody like Lionel(a major outfit) who can't keep things in stock that advertise in a catalog, and then take almost three years to come through if they made it. My comments are that Lionel's catalogs were wish books, wish they made it!! That is why I buy only what I can see at a hobby store or train show.
11th Street - Well stated.
When the toy train manufactures left the USA " to save money" I did not see any cost savings for anything I bought so whaere was the savings. Move over seas cheaper labor I would thing less expensive ptoduct. Not so though, If these companies move back I don't think there should be an increase in price since the shipping should certianly be a large saving in itself. With all the usa workers looking for work the job market would be rip for the picking. My concern is do these american companies really care about the US worker?
wfa When the toy train manufactures left the USA " to save money" I did not see any cost savings for anything I bought so whaere was the savings. Move over seas cheaper labor I would thing less expensive ptoduct. Not so though, If these companies move back I don't think there should be an increase in price since the shipping should certianly be a large saving in itself. With all the usa workers looking for work the job market would be rip for the picking. My concern is do these american companies really care about the US worker?
I would like to see the savings as well!!
When the large compnies talk about saavings it sure isn't for the buyer of produced goods like model trains. They mean it saves them money!! In otherwords they save the GREEN GOD(money)!! See the movie "Trading Places" with Eddie Murphy to understand the term Green GOD, if you don't already know what I mean.
Right youare Phillyreading
Do US Workers care about US Companies? I think it is a two way street.The move over seas was to reduce manufacturing costs and increase profits, not keep prices down.There are a lot of US Workers who are making more on Unemployment than they were making working a 40 hour week, so there is little incentive for them to want to return to work. My sister's company is having this very problem. Their orders are increasing and they need to bring machinists back, but they don't want to come back because they are making the same or more than they were when they were working and they can do it without actually doing anything.
It a sad day when you can make more on unemployement than in the work force. when large companies make huge profits and expect their workers to live below the poverty level. then move off shore to get labor from sweat shops and still rape the public and the us economy its pretty lame.
I would have liked to have known thier secret for doing that. I was lucky to collect half of what I used to make when I was on unemployment.
lionroar88.There are a lot of US Workers who are making more on Unemployment than they were making working a 40 hour week, so there is little incentive for them to want to return to work. My sister's company is having this very problem. Their orders are increasing and they need to bring machinists back, but they don't want to come back because they are making the same or more than they were when they were working and they can do it without actually doing anything.
In PA you UE benefits are based off your last 3? paychecks prior to claiming UE. They include OT in that calculation. The guys were working 50 - 60 hour weeks to get orders out based on quotes from the salesmen, when the orders stopped coming, the work wasn't there.
Phillyreading The parts are made here and there in the us and I believe if memory serves me correctly that there actually being assembled in N.J. I believe around where Lionel had a plant before. Close but not same location.
I suppose only the chief operating officers know both the upside and the down side of manufacturing overseas. By subcontracting a product's production certainly cuts down on the costs of fixed assets, and on the other hand, there are quality and transportation costs which cannot be insignificant, as well as communication and coordination issues as well as delays. All of this is sort of a microcosm of the larger world and brings home the issues of how one views the future. This hobby began with items made in Germany that were eliminated as an effect of WW1, then the whole hobby seemingly vanished due to material supply shortages in WW2, and then faced the decline of the railroads themselves and being out of fashion, which in my mind poses a greater challenge as the decline of the hobby in the postwar years was rejuvenated by a nostalgia factor, based on demographics, as the economic indicators predict a bumpy ride ahead simply to get back to square one. At the same time, maximizing profit is the name of the game in the midst of uncertainty, yet I cannot help but think that an investment and a vote of confidence in the future is just what we and the hobby itself needs. Remember when Mexico was the "go to place"? I cannot help but think that China, sooner or later, will be problematic beyond quality issues. The stability of the hobby largely depends on international politics, then and now, which in these times, if anything, are unpredictable.
The engineering Marx accomplished with less is exemplified with the #1998 switcher that looks as if it has two four wheel trucks. Turn it upside down and it has a simple four wheel drive with the additional front wheels being articulated. Ingenious in my book. .
If I had the wherewithal, I would begin making simple and very colorful tinplate here for adults. The engineering would be based on Marx as making more with less. Simple motors, inexpensive materials but reliable and easily repairable.Affordability. I would put some folks to work here by undercutting the current costs of the low end, which is not so low. What can be done with lithography alone is a whole subject in of itself, which has yet to reappear in the market.
Wally,It 'sounds' wonderful. The problem is assembly. I don't necessarily believe the companies are saving a whole lot on manufacturing because most of that is done with either injection molders or automated machinery. The problem is assembly, if you have 100 workers on the line that earn $5.00/hr and crank out 1000 units per day that comes out to an assembly cost of $20 per unit. I doubt HIGHLY you will find 100 workers in the US willing to work for $5.00/hr (our minimum wage is higher than that already!). It is also cheaper to opperate plants in China as their government controls the cost of fuel and electricity, the land is cheaper and the construction materials are less expensive. Shipping from China to the US is done in supersized ocean liners that carry 1,000s of shipping containers - and you pay by container, not weight if memory serves me correctly. So that cost is relatively fixed as well (at least from a cost calculation standpoint).This is why so many US companies are moving their opperations overseas. The Corporate Tax rate here in the US is somewhere around 38% on revenues, then you have payroll taxes (the company pays 1/2 of your SS and Medicare taxes), the list goes on and on. If you were to levy Import and Export taxes those costs would simply be passed on to customers - why? Because they can - it is called Price Inflation. The cost of manufacturing and assembly remains constant. The ONLY way this will EVER change is if other Countries were to implement the same 'base costs' that our Government has, Minimum Wage, SS/Medicare taxes, income tax, corporate tax, etc, etc.
If a corporation has the right accountants and lawyers, that corporation can get out of paying the corporate taxes. General Electric can get out of paying corporate taxes. Perhaps General Electric could mass produce O Scale and O gauge model railroad equipment.
Andrew
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