This argument or battle of the words have been going on ever since Mike Wolf started manufacturing electric trains in O Gauge. Buy what ya like and enjoy it. I have around a hundred or so command locos split pretty evenly between TMCC and PS-2, I have no Legacy locos. They all have their pros and cons so just run the heck out of them and just be thankful this Memorial Weekend that we have the freedom and ability to purchase and operate electric trains.
Bill T.
With the new MTH imperial Big Boy, it is a full 29 1/8 inches long, 1/8 of an inch longer than the Lionmaster. The proportions too are improved. And they are in others experience as good or better than Lionmaster big Boys. With PS3 the wire will be gone, and MTH smoke systems still pump out far more smoke. The removal of the battery with PS3 makes it more reliable than the PS2 as well. I agree the challengers are to short, but the Big Boy's quality can match or exceed Lionmasters at a much lower price. Plus, 2 flywheel can motors and all Diecast so it can pull just as well.
RickO Mth is $100 to $200 cheaper than ay comparable loco OPEN YOUR EYES IE RAILKING IMPERIAL vs LIONEL LIONMASTER and I wont even get into the far larger selection of locos MTH has!
Mth is $100 to $200 cheaper than ay comparable loco OPEN YOUR EYES IE RAILKING IMPERIAL vs LIONEL LIONMASTER and I wont even get into the far larger selection of locos MTH has!
And the old adage, that you get what you pay for really holds true here.
I have both the LionMaster Big Boy and the RailKing Big Boy, as well as having several LM Challengers, and have compared the RK Challengers at my LTS. The LionMaster versions are the Hands down winners in the detail and appearence categories, as well as the reliabity category in MY experience. The LionMaster Challengers have much better detail, and the proportions look better(IMHO), the RK is too compressed in the wrong places for my taste.
From the top of the right colum down
Lionel JlC Scale size Big Boy
Lionel LionMaster Big Boy
MTH RailKing Big Boy
K Line Big Boy
Lionel LionMaster Challenger (all the Challengers in this photo are LionMaster)
Lionel Scale size Southern Pacific AC-9
As I have said in previous posts, when I moved to the 3 Rail side of the Model Railroading Hobby(from HO), I came into it without any preconcieved biases for, or against any manufacturer. I felt if they all make Great trains, then GREAT for Me(and everybody else) because I would have more to choose from. In MY experience, I have many more Lionel, than MTH, but I have had MANY more problems with MTH, than Lionel, YMMV.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
"PS2, a patented MTH design that holds it's memory in flash ram, the battery only continues the sound when standing and assures good volume at low speed (voltage in conventional operation)."
All I know is that within my limited personal experience that when the PS2 battery is dead (fully discharged), PS2 locos do not function properly. I know of several other people with similar experiences. No battery = no function. Perhaps your experience is different. I know you can get them to work by briefly charging them prior to inputting any commands, letting them sit on the track for a few minutes prior to startup with the track power on.
It's the Lionel, Atlas, Weaver etc. TMCC/Legacy command locos that only require the battery for conventional mode sound, I believe. PS2 requires a battery for both conventional and command mode as far as I know.
Comparing catalog prices does not compute as lionel discount is greater than mth. If making comparsions use store prices and you will find little difference between the two.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Good morning all,
I like this thread. One thing in comparing the starter sets of the 1950s and today can be shown by example. The Scout set was Lionel's price leader for several years. 2010 brought back a new version. The original had special cars with non-compatible couplers. What is more important is that Lionel never expanded the product beyond the original three cars, but with the expansion set available, Lionel 2010 is already up to 5. The locomotive is a top of the line model for that type with smoke, headlight, whistle (air), and three position E-unit. While this unit may be aimed at the Wal-Mart/Target bunch, there is every reason to hope more rolling will be added to the line in future years.
Keep on training,
Mike C. from Indiana
To Neil,
I disagree with you about MTH. Yes, the PS1 system, labeled "QSI", combined both Sound and Reverse Function on one board that required a Battery Backup for continued operation. Dead Battery, dead engine, a bad idear, but that was 10 years ago. PS2, a patented MTH design that holds it's memory in flash ram, the battery only continues the sound when standing and assures good volume at low speed (voltage in conventional operation).
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To Dave B in Tacoma,
I'll add another problem with "over engineered" model trains. Before retirement, I worked 47 years for one of the DJ 30 Industrial companys and became involved in microprocessor motion control. Microprocessors, chips, encoders from 1979 soon became obsolete. The original 16K EPROM went out of production (world wide), PC boards had to be upgraded to receive 32K, then 512K EPROMs. The TI 9900 Microprocessor went out of production, replacments were needed for our Maintenance Contracts, they had to buy a license and have "clones" made. In 1991 we went to an Intel based system with EEPROMs.
Now you can see what Lionel, MTH, and the repairman at your local hobby shop is in for in future years. The spare parts will not exist and will be too costly to clone. They will need to be "upgraded" or converted back to "Conventional Control" destroying the collector value. Enjoy the trains while they still run.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Coming from the low-end budget 027 perspective, I'll agree that MTH Rugged Rails is cheaper. The disclaimer is that the last time any significant Rugged Rails items were cataloged was 2008. Even then the typical Rugged Rails car was $25 with die-cast trucks compared to the Lionel starter car price of $35 with plastic trucks. Now, I don't mind plastic trucks, but one would think they would lower the list price. Hmmmm, not necessarily.
The Lionel seperate sale horn only PRR GP38 was $210 list compared to the MTH Rugged Rails horn only Dash-8 at $150. And though that Lionel loco waqs cataloged with die-cast truck sides and fuel tank, it was also cataloged with a single motor.
But MTH does little with the Rugged Rails line other than to have something there. The Dash-8's from 2008 have only now just been shipped. But it's a solid loco with value and styling unlike any similar Lionel starter loco. Too bad MTH doesn't agressively put more effort into the Rugged Rails line. I like the modern style no-frills (no digital extras) diesel locos they've done.
I do agree with others, that keeping their prices lower than Lionel's is part of their strategy. They're competing with Lionel and not the other way around, even though they do have a very loyal customer base. They still do only a fraction of Lionel's overall sales.
That said, I agree overall prices are getting high for the stateside economy. But then again, Lionel starter sets are still a good buy and many dealers offer breakups of sets at good prices. A couple of the Lionel two-packs including an operating car offer some value. On the other hand, $400 for the 027 PRR Alco FA's is absurd. I see prices like that, and then I quickly forget that the item even was cataloged. I don't focus on things I can't afford.
As far as ridiculous prices, (again from the 027 operator perspective) I think RMT gets the award this year. $300 for the BEEF? Not worth it at all. In my opinion they might as well not even bother making it and just cancell it along with the PEEP passenger cars. Even for the ones already made... $50 for their caboose? No way, not at that price. Some of the RMT rolling stock 2-packs are still a value, but who is to say those prices won't go up again before they finally (if ever) arrive.
And $170 for their K-Line S-2 copy? At least there's improvements being made. But who is to say the price won't go up even higher before it ever arrives? It's been promised for the past 2 going on 3 years.
In my mind RMT has a very serious credibility problem with both the price increases and the long, long delays for many of their products. Hopefully the deal with Aristo-Craft will make for some positive changes for both production and the consumer.
But they will always be train bargains out there. One might have to wait a bit to see them, or buy used. Or buy a road name they might not have chosen on first choice. I think we'll just have to look harder and be more patient, which has always been my attitude. And I have always eventually found items I wanted at the price I was willing to pay.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Seayakbill Lionel has and continues to be significantly higher on product in the same categories as MTH. Since MTH latest catalog has not been released yet we cannot compare 2010 prices but if you look at the last 2009 catalog issued by both companies there is quite a difference in catalog pricing for the premier product line ( excluding Vision product ), examples. Hopper - Lionel $80, MTH $50 Reefer - Lionel $80, MTH $50 2 stacker cars - Lionel $225, MTH $120 SD-70 - Lionel $550, MTH $430 AC6000 - Lionel $700, Dash8-40C - MTH $430 Unpowered - Lionel $350, MTH $200
Lionel has and continues to be significantly higher on product in the same categories as MTH. Since MTH latest catalog has not been released yet we cannot compare 2010 prices but if you look at the last 2009 catalog issued by both companies there is quite a difference in catalog pricing for the premier product line ( excluding Vision product ), examples.
Hopper - Lionel $80, MTH $50
Reefer - Lionel $80, MTH $50
2 stacker cars - Lionel $225, MTH $120
SD-70 - Lionel $550, MTH $430
AC6000 - Lionel $700, Dash8-40C - MTH $430
Unpowered - Lionel $350, MTH $200
Also it apears that Lionel may have learned something not sure on all items but did see a few that were about 12% less than last year example the train set I just bought in lionels catalog volume 2 for 2009 it was listed for $799.99 this year its listed for $699.99 12.5% less than last year and this is a lionmaster with legacey SD-90 engine in the set with five cars including a illuminated smoking caboose, transformer, and 50" x 90" of Track (O-48 curves) . Cool Jock mention he notice the prices were less this year on items than last year also.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
Lou Palumbo, he's a nice guy. This friday I'm going down to his underground shoppe. Unfortanetly I'm returning an engine I bought from him.
I don't worry about the prices of trains as much as I do more necessary items... Can't say that a Visionline engine would make me any happier.
I will settle for a pair of Plutonium cars and a couple good laughs.
Hi Don U,
Thanks for the comment, you are completely correct about the current values of the 700E, The March 2010 CTT had a great article on the restoration of one. They estimated that only around three thousand of them have survived, or about half of what was produced.The article is a testiment to the enduring value placed on that engine. There have been a few recent sales of them on ebay, for significantly more than the $1600 than I put in my earlier post. I would argue that even those sales prices are not indicative of a longer term value of 700E, but until the overall economy improves, top value will be hard to get.
That said, my point was that by most historical standards, $1600 for a new engine is steep for most people to pay for, a one in a lifetime type event. With the electronics included in today's high priced engines, and the references in this thread about lack of parts etc, the risk is that these engines turn out to be like cell phones, when they stop working you need to get a new one. Lou Palumbo in one of his CTT articles made a good case a while back that the industry needs some low-priced generic parts to make repairs.
All the best, Dave
"Mth is $100 to $200 cheaper than ay comparable loco OPEN YOUR EYES IE RAILKING IMPERIAL vs LIONEL LIONMASTER and I wont even get into the far larger selection of locos MTH has!"
Street prices are very much different from what you suggest. You are noting one particular line or loco. MTH's discount structure is much less favorable to consumer pricing. I can find Lionel locos for about 100-150 dollars. Try finding an MTH loco for less than 250-300. Sure the MTH has PS2, but it also has a pain in the behind battery inside, and you have to use an MTH transformer to access even the basic features easily. The last thing I want in my locos is PS2. I'd rather have conventional than that command system.
Frankly, I don't care how many different color schemes MTH makes locos in. They still have PS2 and batteries inside, which I consider an undesirable system and design.
In any case, I'm a three railer, not a scale model railroader. Varied locos and road names mean nothing to me. Enjoy your MTH and I'll enjoy my Lionel :).
To me its the TRACK - even tho I am using Fasttrak, MTH switches are still unbelievably lower that Lionels crazy $92 + per switch. And on top of that hardly anyone has any track in stock right now. At my LHS, one can still get MTH track for $3, and an O31 switch for $45, so that can still be a factor for some people.
I have often wondered why there is not a market for O gauge kits, as there are in HO, but then again as I understand it, the blue boxes of Athern are a thing of the past.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
Another factor to consider is that the cheapest Lionel set in the 1950s was about $25, which was perhaps 3 day's pay back then. The cheapest Lionel set now is around $200, which is about a day or two's salary for the average individual wage earner. This is despite the fact that back in the 1950s the volume of sets made was probably 10 times the number today. The economies of scale no longer remotely apply to this cottage industry. You get much more product for your inflated dollar now than you did in the 1950s when you buy a starter set.
High end stuff is even smaller volume now than then. The most expensive locomotive was probably around 50-60 dollars, which was more like a week's salary, but most families did not own automobiles, their own homes and have a plethora of other responsibilities (college education was for the rich). So it's hard to make direct comparisons, but your buying power today is, by and large, much greater today than back then when it comes to the average salary and the average cost of trains, in my view.
Bob Keller
Item #1,
You can not use the CPI index to gauge product value. How much did your first Cell Phone cost? How about now? How much were HD TV sets a few years ago? How about now? The CPI may rise but any given product must lower cost over time or lose its market. This is done by raising Efficiency while cutting Production Cost. You can not compair the 1930s "700E" cost to todays trains. The 700E was the first, mass-produced, detailed Scale Model with a price to match. The average construction worker in the late 1930s made .75 cents per hour, They bought the $10 train sets and were unable to commit 100 hours of gross pay (over two 44 hour week's labor) buying a locomotive.
Item #2,
The price of some 1/4 inch scale "O Gauge" cars now exceed the price of, often more detailed, 1/29th scale "G Gauge" cars.
Just for the record, Lionel, being a well recognized brand name for close to a century and spending a lot more on advertising and public involvement/profile, has always been significantly more expensive for most items than MTH. The notable exception was track (tubular) and sets. MTH puts command electronics in all its sets, so Lionel undersells them by hundreds of dollars in some cases. The simple truth is to the public, MTH is an "off brand" so they HAVE to underprice Lionel. That said, Lionel is sold at slightly higher discounts to dealers in many cases, so the street price is often quite comparable for many items, but not all. If saving 5-10 bucks on a freight car or 20-50 bucks on a command loco is your thing, then MTH is for you :). If you like conventional, or traditional O27 stuff, Lionel is a lot cheaper than MTH. It's not as straightforward as some like to paint it, particularly MTH dealers :). You get more for your money with some MTH locos, in terms of functionality, but you have to put up with a kludgy interface and the poor design of having an internal battery that must be charged or viable for any operation. Personally, I prefer Lionel for the simplicity, predictability, nostalgia and toy approach, and just personal taste.
Good post Dave.
The prices in this catalog are actually on the whole slightly less than last year's. But there are some scary issues on the horizon regarding the value of the dollar vs. the yuan, and the fact that we've just made the costs associated with manufacturing in the US MUCH higher ( look up Caterpillar, John Deere, and ATT&T's reaction to recent legislation).
We may face the perfect storm of way too much money supply driving the value of the dollar down, increasing interest rates to get a handle on it, massive new regulation making domestic manufacturing unstable, and the possibility of "skyrocketing" energy costs if Cap & Trade passes.
If all these things come to pass, we may look at the prices in the current catalog as the good old days.
Jon
Hi Guys, Interesting thread. I enjoy hunting for bargains on ebay. I have found many orginal PW cars on ebay for less than what a similar item is going for in the catalogs. For example, I recently bought a 6464-450 GN box car that was in slightly above average shape, for $56. It had no box, but that was fine for me because I plan on running it on my layout. Based on what others in similar condition have sold for, I think it was a fair price. On the other hand, a pair of 6464 box cars went for $115 in the 2009 Signature Catalog. I am sure there are some that want the brand new cars, but at least we have a choice. I have acquired some cars that have needed new parts and a good cleaning and I take pride in the before and after pictures.
The new Lionel Catalogs have a wide range of priced items. I believe that the orginal 700E went for $75 in 1937. I don't have the consumer price index (inflation index) back that far, but I went to freelunch.com and pulled the CPI from 1947. If you inflation-adjust $75 from 1947 to 2010, it would be about $1611 in today's dollars. In the 1947 Catalog, the highest end set went for $75 and the lowest end set went for $22.50. You could argue that even the lowest end sets were expensive back then as well. I suspect that for most of us, buying a $1600 engine would be a once in a lifetime event. It reminds me of Mickey Mantle Rookie cards, even though I would never buy one, it didn't mean that I would not enjoy looking at one if one was for sale at a card show.
I have encouraged some of my friends with young families that a good starter set costing around $300 is a great investment for a lifetime of fun! (especially when you compare what an xbox and games cost.)
The prices are set up for limited editions. They apparently expect everybody to be selective because they have limited space.
They make a few because they expect everybody to either be focused collectors or they expect people to run out of space in their layout room.
Who is the person who can buy at near full price first, then sell it on E*bay. Who will spend the money to get everything then sell what they do not like?
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
That's why I'm always thankful for EBAY !!!!!
I agree that the prices are way to high and as for parts from a popular big manufacture-Forget about it!!!!!
They AIN"T got none and if they do, you have to buy a whole shell, just for the needed part.
Forget about it!!!!
Ralph
What? Having problems with the Vision Thing? Visions don't come cheap.
(Buy used & out of season ).
I agree about the prices going way to high. Freight cars reaching $80/90 mark. Caboose at $95 no thanks i'll play with what I have and buy when I see a good deal. Another thing that concerns me is three year parts inventory. Big dollar engines and no parts.
I just love my post war stuff more and more- plus I can make any needed repairs myself.
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