Rickster wrote: Great discussion! I run MPC, postwar and modern. But folks, don't talk MPC up too much. I don't want the prices to increase!!! Rickster, Mpls., MN
Great discussion! I run MPC, postwar and modern. But folks, don't talk MPC up too much. I don't want the prices to increase!!!
Rickster, Mpls., MN
I buy them [diesels] and convert them to command. A little dressing up with extra decals and etc, look just as good as some of the new stuff out.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
brianel027 wrote: I agree, and there are other bits too, like the one-day firing of nearly 2-dozen of the top exec's at Lionel after the MTH verdict came down, or the cheers over Maddox coming to Lionel, and then all of a sudden, he's leaving. And Gary Moreau too. But I think a lot of this stuff is probably off limits for a magazine that wants to build good will and keep advertising dollars. Although Lionel isn't advertinsg with CTT now anyways. Probably some of the stuff from the early MPC period would be safer to write about.
I don't think it would be fair to these individuals to dig up their career moves unless they volunteered the information. A lot of different people have worked at Lionel and at least one classic has evolved under thier control. That's the kind of thing that makes Lionel history so interesting.
III Rail Guy, your Avatar is great! What a hoot!
And Brianel027 I sure appreciate your discussion on MPC trucks and how to tighten them up. Thank you for enlightening us. I always assumed it was due to weight only. I learn a lot from these discussions. Thank you everyone!
And,......where did the savings go with the move to the orient? I am looking at the traditional line cars in the new catalog.
There are no cost savings being passed on to the consumer here. Home and consumer electronics may have gotten less expensive being made overseas but not our trains. Lionel makes a good profit on the traditional items where the tooling and dies have long been paid for. I've always felt the continued high prices on these items are in essence welfare payments for the high end products, where there are recent high development and tooling costs. Factor in the low production run numbers and these items, despite the arguements of many die-hard high end guys, do not make money. In fact many lose money (factoring in the high devvelopment costs) until they get into subsequent production runs.
As mentioned above, the development/research and tooling process is now different, especially for the high end items. While the computer generated and assisted engineering would on the surface, seem to make the whole process easier, the precision and accuracy demanded by some hobbiests, have factored out that advantage.
I'd rather run the trains than sit there and count the rivets and then send off a complaint letter. Or spend time on the phone trying to get warranty service on my fried electronics or figuring out what happened to the loco I sent back months ago, so MPC stuff is just fine and looking better all the time. I've said it before, but even my "cheap" MPC stuff still works great and certainly has a better, time-proven track record than many of the so-called advanced trains of today.
Fifedog, it would be nice to see the MPC/LTI story published in CTT (over a number of issues). Kind of like CTT did with the postwar era when they interviewed ex-employees. The move from New Jersey, the dealings with Johnny Cash, product devolopment, etc. There are bits and pieces floating around but I think there's a lot more to the story.
I agree, and there are other bits too, like the one-day firing of nearly 2-dozen of the top exec's at Lionel after the MTH verdict came down, or the cheers over Maddox coming to Lionel, and then all of a sudden, he's leaving. And Gary Moreau too. But I think a lot of this stuff is probably off limits for a magazine that wants to build good will and keep advertising dollars. Although Lionel isn't advertinsg with CTT now anyways. Probably some of the stuff from the early MPC period would be safer to write about.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
fifedog wrote:3railguy - In short, the savings to the corporation are in "Legacy" fees. (funny they should name their new system that) It would probably make us ill to know what the cost, per unit, is at factory, and what the mark-up is. ...and then there are the out-of-work minions that used to work for BIG L (howza-bout a follow up to that, CTT?) Sure, I like all the new product, but I still think of those unmentioned Americans that lost their livelyhoods...
Cheese,
My first set was real similar to yours, though mine was a Rio Grande 2-4-0. Mine still runs, but it's missing the drawbar and bell. The drawbar has been gone for better than 20 years; I use a plastic trash bag tie to attach the tender to it. It's always the first train to run on every layout I've ever built.
These engines should go for next to nothing on eBay, get that set running again!
J White
Cheese wrote: Indeed,This is my kind of topic. My first Lionel set was an MPC set. It was a Pennsylvania 2-4-0 with a chugging tender. There was also a blue Great Northern hopper, yellow Union Pacific flatcar, red Southern Pacific gondola, and a green Penn Central Caboose. It served me well, until I got my next set.The 2-4-0 has since stopped working, and sadly, lies in pieces in a junk box. I hope to ge a newone soon to replace my old set. I have always been fond of MPC products. and I have my eye on the Southern, Great Northern, and Union Pacific FARR sets. The Blue Comet is high on my list of acquisitions.Has anyone had experince with these sets?Cheese
Indeed,
This is my kind of topic. My first Lionel set was an MPC set. It was a Pennsylvania 2-4-0 with a chugging tender. There was also a blue Great Northern hopper, yellow Union Pacific flatcar, red Southern Pacific gondola, and a green Penn Central Caboose. It served me well, until I got my next set.
The 2-4-0 has since stopped working, and sadly, lies in pieces in a junk box. I hope to ge a newone soon to replace my old set. I have always been fond of MPC products. and I have my eye on the Southern, Great Northern, and Union Pacific FARR sets. The Blue Comet is high on my list of acquisitions.
Has anyone had experince with these sets?
Cheese
With your 2-4-0, it could be the brushes are shot, a bad connection, or it just ceased up. The motor assembly was made in huge quantities and the entire assembly is easy to replace. Used ones in good working order show up on ebay pretty frequently for around ten bucks.
The Great Northern and UP Farr sets are good. They are headed by berkshires made the old school way. Magnetraction, Pullmore motor, etc. Sometimes you have to adjust the motor shims slightly to get the best performance. Practically all berks since day one are like this.
Nick! :)
jwse30 wrote: I'll settle this MPC is dung debate once and for all. If you don't like MPC, you're unAmerican! J White
Yes! And to settle it even more, put an MPC power truck up to your nose and take a big wiff. Now that's American.
And,......where did the savings go with the move to the orient? I am looking at the traditional line cars in the new catalog. MSRP on these is $50 to $60. Even when discounted that seems way high because there isn't a lot to them. Do you agree? Yet, the scale standard O cars with all the crispy detail and graphics are only like $15 to $20 more. I'm OK with that and pre-ordered three (at discount of course).
I'll settle this MPC is dung debate once and for all. If you don't like MPC, you're unAmerican!
A bit more serious, about a third of what I run is MPC. I don't own many MPC engines (four off the top of my head). I own about 15 or 20 9700 series boxcars, which are the most run cars of mine as far as MPC goes.
What I really like about MPC is the accessories. Most are identical to their postwar counterparts (aside from the NY and MI locations on the underside of the unit), and usually cost less than half of a postwar original. With the exception of my gateman, I think all my "postwar" accessories are MPC lookalikes if there was one made.
Just my two cents,
lionel2986 wrote:MPC era was from 1970-1985, right? What about 1986 and onward? Is that modern Lionel?
That is correct. MPC (General Mills) sold out to Richard Kughn in 85. Kughn also bought the Lionel name from the Lionel Corporation (General Mills was paying royalities for the name). It became Lionel Trains Incorporated or in short, the LTI era. Many collectors still refer to the MPC era as the beginning of the modern era.
MPC takes alot of flack for cheapening the product which they did in some ways. But, America had entered the throw away age and wasn't willing to spend serious cash on trains. MPC really had no choice in the matter. Either cheapen the product so it sells or do away with the company all together.
A lot of parts from the Lionel corpation made it to the MPC plant and got used up. This makes some interesting variations with early MPC such as the 634 switcher mentioned earlier or some ATSF boxcars. For even more trivia, MPC and LTI continued making track clips with the Ives Corporation stamped on them (Lionel bought Ives tooling back in the early 1900's).
"No childhood should be without a train!"
brianel027 wrote: Kurt, I assume you are talking about MPC rolling stock, and there is a solution. The number one problem for derailments on rolling stock is not the weight of the car, but the wobble caused by the loose truck mountings via the metal or plastic snap rivets.On the MPC or LTI cars, drill out the rivet and replace it with a 8-32 truss screw and a 8-32 lock nut. Tighten it all the way, and then loosen it enough so that the truck spins to and fro, but doesn't wobble. Trust me, THIS REALLY WORKS! 100% guaranteed.
Kurt, I assume you are talking about MPC rolling stock, and there is a solution. The number one problem for derailments on rolling stock is not the weight of the car, but the wobble caused by the loose truck mountings via the metal or plastic snap rivets.
On the MPC or LTI cars, drill out the rivet and replace it with a 8-32 truss screw and a 8-32 lock nut. Tighten it all the way, and then loosen it enough so that the truck spins to and fro, but doesn't wobble. Trust me, THIS REALLY WORKS! 100% guaranteed.
Thanks for the tip! This is exactly the cause! The front of the car rears up and off it goes. I installed modern sprung trucks on some of my more used models. I will give it a try!
Kurt
3railguy wrote: sir james I wrote:MPC and some dedicated older PW employees brought Lionel back from the dead.I have lived in the Lionel area since MPC went from model cars to toy trains and I can tell you there were many obstacles. They worked from old blueprints,went through crates looking for dies,anything that they could use to make a train. When they revived PW items that gave the collector a new source of parts and saved many a PW item from becoming a parts only peice.They had budget issues, if it cost to many $$ they were not made. Thats the reason the first MPC TM's did not have horns, they could do it but the budget said no. As for the wobble it still exists on the low cost items and if you watch close at slow speed you will see the wheel is off center on the axle.Yes, tool searches were a huge deal at the Mt Clemens and tool making was a huge cost which is why they were so slow at coming out with new models. According to the TM history book, they spent $100,000 tooling the SD-18 truck frames.
sir james I wrote:MPC and some dedicated older PW employees brought Lionel back from the dead.I have lived in the Lionel area since MPC went from model cars to toy trains and I can tell you there were many obstacles. They worked from old blueprints,went through crates looking for dies,anything that they could use to make a train. When they revived PW items that gave the collector a new source of parts and saved many a PW item from becoming a parts only peice.They had budget issues, if it cost to many $$ they were not made. Thats the reason the first MPC TM's did not have horns, they could do it but the budget said no. As for the wobble it still exists on the low cost items and if you watch close at slow speed you will see the wheel is off center on the axle.
Yes, tool searches were a huge deal at the Mt Clemens and tool making was a huge cost which is why they were so slow at coming out with new models. According to the TM history book, they spent $100,000 tooling the SD-18 truck frames.
Thank you Sir James and John. Not to flog a dead horse, but there are some in this hobby who just don't understand this undeniable fact. Consider that 100 grand was a while ago, though probably done stateside. But even in China, development, research, design, tooling and making the final dies for an accurately proportioned and scale proportioned engine CAN cost half a million, one million or even more! Even the paint masks are costly considering the small runs of many higher end products.
I won't defend list prices for everyone. Take for example the $36 Lionel starter cars with plastic trucks and then compare to Atlas Industrial Rail or K-Lionel with die cast trucks. And those kinds of trains sell in quantity! Accurate detailed high end products, which don't sell in quantity and have new development costs ARE going to be expensive... even from China.
Fife,
The trackwork,and signals are done and in service.(I miss the CPL's)
Earlier this week a new platform was put in on the Old Main side.
I hang out there a few times a week,usually after work in the evenings.
Carl T.
Fifedog,
I use Plasticville,and K-Line autos to fill my MPC auto racks,they work well also.
I think I might have met you at St. Denis station a year or two ago.(had my baby son in a stroller)
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
I collect the 40' Hi-Cube boxcars, as well as the open autoracks, from the 70's. They are great trackers, lots of Fallen Flags to choose from, and look good with a consist of more scale proportioned equipment.
* Let you all in on a little secret: 78 VW Rabbits are the perfect fit for the autoracks.
"I too have been eyeing a few of these...I agree they run very well, as long as they are connected to like cars, or at least the PW cars are located in front of them. I tried to run these between PW items, only to have them yanked off the track in 'S' curves, because of their light weight. If you want to run long trains, these are the perfect choice!"
Hold a train car in your hand, and grab the coupler and wobble it up and down and you will clearly see what I mean... this is your cause.
Think of it this way: on a real train the coupler is mounted to the car body itself, not the truck. So on our trains, where the coupler is mounted to the truck, if the truck has wobble, when you push those cars the force on those couplers is going to push the truck upward if there is play in the mounting - thus causing the derailment. This is also true for the "C" clip used to mount the postwar metal staple construction trucks. There was an article in CTT many moons ago about inserting a very thin washer between the top of the truck and the bottom of the car body, and then recrimping the "C" clip.
On the MPC or LTI cars, drill out the rivet and replace it with a 8-32 truss screw and a 8-32 lock nut. Tighten it all the way, and then loosen it enough so that the truck spins to and fro, but doesn't wobble. Trust me, THIS REALLY WORKS! 100% guaranteed. I've run 8 inch plastic MPC flat cars, no load on them with plastic trucks, pushing a 12 car train with all postwar trucks and have ZERO derailments. I just did this last night. I'm telling you my method absolutely works.
On cars like gondolas and flat cars, you can use a blackened buttom top or cap type screw that will require a small Allan Wrench, with the lock nut. The blackened screws look nice on cars where the screw is visable.
There are some other rolling stock specific causes for derailments, which are the wheel gauge (more a problem with the cheaper Asian knock-off fast angle wheel sets) and the shape and inner opening space inside the closed knuckle coupler. Industrial Rail cars suffer from this problem big time, espeically when backing up through 027 curves. The couplers bind, thus causing a derailment. Though it might not be as bad a problem on wider radius curves. Also the coupler shank is a good quarter inch longer than on Lionel or K-Line cars. Because of this and the way the trucks are mounted, I'm positive the Atlas versions of these cars have the identical problem.
Also John and Jim, I'm not a "big" steam engine operator, but I talk a lot to guys that do repairs... I can still listen and still learn. I've heard a couple guys speak of this similar trouble with some larger Lionel steamers, and it is fixed one of two ways: by the insertion of a washer over the axle, keeping the driver wheel aligned. Or by inserting the washer on the face of the wheel to align the driving steam rods. I don't remember which, but I know guys have fixed this problem so the engines run perfectly with no wobble.
brianel027 wrote: In response to the MPC is crap school of thought, under the subtitle of "bang for the buck" it would be far more justified to call many of today's advanced scale trains "crap, junk and garbage." We've all seen the countless threads how many of these new high end products fail to work straight out of the box, or how details are easily broken off, and how replacemernt parts are not available.One thing for sure... the Lionel people at MPC were far more forward thinking than many give credit for. MPC did a lot of new tooling and many products introduced by MPC are still being made today. Really, the last big rash of newly tooled products that will work on 027 track and looks right for the traditional operator was done by MPC.
In response to the MPC is crap school of thought, under the subtitle of "bang for the buck" it would be far more justified to call many of today's advanced scale trains "crap, junk and garbage." We've all seen the countless threads how many of these new high end products fail to work straight out of the box, or how details are easily broken off, and how replacemernt parts are not available.
One thing for sure... the Lionel people at MPC were far more forward thinking than many give credit for. MPC did a lot of new tooling and many products introduced by MPC are still being made today. Really, the last big rash of newly tooled products that will work on 027 track and looks right for the traditional operator was done by MPC.
Postwar collectors coined the term "Modern Plastic Crap" which like you say really isn't. "Fake-a-traction" was the term coined for the rubber band wheels. Back in the 60's and 70's, postwar Lionel was written off as plastic crap by prewar collectors who pretty much dominated the collector scene then. So, we've always had and always will have the debates. I like MPC for its graphics, simplicity, and ruggedness. Like just about anything, it has its weak points such as sloppy mechanical tolerances and nylon gears. They used a lot of artist liscence such as putting EMD trucks under GE diesels but that's what makes it funky and interchangeable. To me, a scale SD-40 looks rather comical on 036 curves but MPC's shortened version of the early eighties looks much better on small curves. Same goes for their SD-18's and 28's.
Be careful there, John. Some of those MPC Hudsons had a wheel problem that makes them wobble down the track like a duck.
Thanks for the warning. I never heard that. Something to watch out for.
3railguy wrote:The Santa-Fe hudson is really sharp and so are all the cars in the set. What's really nice aboI've been eyeing the FARR 1 set as well as no 2 (UP). ut the hudson is it's practically old school all the way with metal gears, magnetraction, and pullmore motor.
The Santa-Fe hudson is really sharp and so are all the cars in the set. What's really nice aboI've been eyeing the FARR 1 set as well as no 2 (UP). ut the hudson is it's practically old school all the way with metal gears, magnetraction, and pullmore motor.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
I too have been eyeing a few of these...I agree they run very well, as long as they are connected to like cars, or at least the PW cars are located in front of them. I tried to run these between PW items, only to have them yanked off the track in 'S' curves, because of their light weight. If you want to run long trains, these are the perfect choice!
I bought the Oppenheinmer boxcar a while back, and have really enjoyed it, and have been looking for additional weathered wood sided cars to go with it.
Did Lionel make any wood side cabooses to go with these cars?
The debate over the MPC period will probably go on for a while. You either like it or you don't. BUT I have always disliked the broad swath criticism that the MPC stuff was all plastic crap. It's really an unfair generalization. YES, plastic was more dominant on MPC trains - but it was becomming more dominant in all manufactured products as that was the trend.
As mentioned above, MPC locos are actually pretty decent for the dollar and fairly easy to fix or improve or even modify. And no, I don't like the plastic truck rivets MPC used on rolling stock, but those are a breeze to replace. And I'd prefer an AAR or Timken truck to the Symington that MPC used, but when I'm running trains, I don't notice it all that much.
One thing for sure... the Lionel people at MPC were far more forward thinking than many give credit for. MPC did a lot of new tooling and many products introduced by MPC are still being made today. Really, the last big rash of newly tooled products that will work on 027 track and looks right for the traditional operator was done by MPC. Though to give credit where it is due, MTH also did aimned products at this market under the early Railking banner.
The roadname selection for Lionel under MPC is unequalled by either postwar Lionel or Lionel today. The only other company that comes close is MTH. MPC had good graphics and gave homage to many rail lines ignored in the past and still ignored today by Lionel.
MPC was quick to make products that reflected current railroading. When the formation Conrail was announced, Lionel quickly released products that reflected the lines going into Conrail, as well as making new Conrail products. And that happened at Lionel at the same time it was happening on the real rails. Today's Lionel has yet to ever do a starter set in Norfolk Southern or BNSF, two of the biggest railroads in the nation. The last affordable Lionel Conrail starter set was in 1993 and the last CSX one was in 1991.
Yep, I would absolutely agree... MPC rocks! It looks nice, is affordable, American made (mostly), easily repaired and improved, parts are readily available along with service, and with proper care, will run and operate as well as anything. I have plastic geared MPC locos that are still running fine after 35 years. There's value there that some of today's current products haven't lived up to.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month