Some thoughts on MPC

[3railguy]

Lionelsoni, what you are saying is the kind of thing I was getting at. I should wait for the AC version to come out.

[lionelsoni]

There are a couple of ways to get speed information from a permanent-magnet motor.  One is to measure the armature resistance R and use the fact that the armature voltage E is equal to the back-EMF from the motor, which is proportional to speed, minus the ohmic voltage drop; that is, speed is proportional to E - IR, where I is the current drawn by the motor.  Another way is to drive the motor intermittently, allowing it to alternate between acting as a motor and as a generator and tachometer.  This has the advantage of not requiring knowledge of the armature resistance.  However, the on-off operation generally makes the motor run hotter than with pure DC.

These methods are not easily adapted to universal motors.  However there are other ways to get at speed information.  One is similar to the intermittent method, but with a small constant excitation current during the off period.  Another exploits the fact that voltage E is proportional to the product of current I and velocity.  Therefore velocity is proportional to E/I.  In other words, an ideal universal motor looks electrically like a resistance proportional to its velocity.  A real motor has the actual resistances of the armature and field in series with this ideal virtual resistance.  So it is possible to measure speed by dividing motor voltage by current, then subtracting off the real resistances.  What is left is proportional to speed.

[3railguy]

Chief, thanks for taking the time to post. The NS geep repaint looks sharp. I googled Electric RR's sight and it looks like the AC commander deluxe kit with sounds @ $120 is what I want.

I noticed the cruise commander is tachless and works with DC motors and they have an AC version on the drawing board. I wonder if they mean DC permag motors as pullmores will work off DC as well as AC.

[ChiefEagles]

Had to use the insert images to get it to work??????  Crasy software.

[ChiefEagles]

I just converted [tonight] a K-Line switcher [motors in the trucks] to TMCC.  Something as some MPC's.  Next converting two MPC GP9's to TMCC and sounds with cruise.

Chief, how much does it cost to do what you say? Who do you buy your stuff from? I'd like to convert a GP-20. It's got a pullmore motor however. I don't care about cruise if pullmores are an issue. What about smoke units? Ever tried that?

Was using Digital Dynamics but switched to Electric RR.  Mini commanders worked great if no sound is needed.  Last purchases were Electric RR Sound Commander Combos [TMCC, Cruise and Sounds].  Going to install them in the MPC GP9's and moving Mini Commanders from them to the K-Line switchers I have.  One switcher will have to be a repaint/decal to get NS.  

Smoke units:  I mainly use Lionel smoke units.  They will not fit in some narrow shells.  Since I am using command, I build bridge rectifiers to reduce voltages as 18V produces too much smoke and might burn out the element. 

For headlights in dummies, I am now using LEDs that I got form a company and you do not have to install diodes.  They are small and fit in the headlight places in shells.

 

I built my own brackets and use one side sticky closed foam insulation from ACE [the wide type used to seal camper shells and etc.].

This was the test of the first one I tried.  Ended up using only three rectifiers to get good smoke.  

Will try to paste a converted MPC GP9 repaint/decal that I removed mini commander kit and going to intall Sound Commander Combo.  If room, will add smoke.

[suddenly CTT will not paste from Shutterfly????]   

[ADCX Rob]

I just got a brand new, in the box, never run MADE IN THE USA Lionel!!! been picking up some Pennsy "Baby Madisons". got the 9510  Combo yesterday. nice detail,look good behind my 675. watching a few more, just need to find one of the observations. I'm liking MPC more and more.

I've heard the roofs of these cars are hard to get off. any tips?

 Thanks

The secret seems to be to squeeze the notched windows in from the bottom or sides instead of trying to reach over the top... hold the car in front of you with the windows facing to your left & right between your hands.

Press in on the "notched" rear windows with both index fingers using a pushing up motion at the same time to "unlock" the raised tabs from the windows. Switch to the front windows and do the same. Repeat on back windows again... usually by this time you have opened up the roof enough to get a grip on the roof panel and raise it straight up & out of the car.

Over 30 years using this method and I've never cracked a window frame/strut. 

Rob 

[3railguy]

This car has no box, so if that's a problem, go to the next listing!

HOWEVER this car  is in Superb condition....CLEAN  It has the slightest sign of wheel wear from minimal usage. In short, it's a Sweetie!!!

I love this guy's ebay listing. LMAO! I'm gonna spring for it. It's a car I want.

[3railguy]

I just converted [tonight] a K-Line switcher [motors in the trucks] to TMCC.  Something as some MPC's.  Next converting two MPC GP9's to TMCC and sounds with cruise.

Chief, how much does it cost to do what you say? Who do you buy your stuff from? I'd like to convert a GP-20. It's got a pullmore motor however. I don't care about cruise if pullmores are an issue. What about smoke units? Ever tried that?

[ChiefEagles]

I just converted [tonight] a K-Line switcher [motors in the trucks] to TMCC.  Something as some MPC's.  Next converting two MPC GP9's to TMCC and sounds with cruise.

[sir james I]

The tabs are easier to see if you hold the car upside down. Get one end loose and then the other.

[lionelsoni]

The window inserts are attached to the roof.  Several of them are shaped to protrude slightly out through the window openings.  You locate these and press them into the car a little bit to release the roof.

[LL675]

I just got a brand new, in the box, never run MADE IN THE USA Lionel!!! been picking up some Pennsy "Baby Madisons". got the 9510  Combo yesterday. nice detail,look good behind my 675. watching a few more, just need to find one of the observations. I'm liking MPC more and more.

I've heard the roofs of these cars are hard to get off. any tips?

 Thanks

[3railguy]

There are still a lot of good deals on MPC with ebay and the prices sort of fluctuate all over. I've seen auctions close for more money than the asking price of the same item in the buy-it-now section. Same condition and everything. If it shows any play wear and is missing the box, it goes real cheap. That is fine with me because I only add to the play wear and the boxes only take up real estate.

[Lionelking313]

Point Blank.....MPC IS ON A COMEBACK!

I have been collecting it for years and have an almost complete collection of all the "collector line" items and top of the line sets, engines, etc. I have all the FARR sets, and Service Station Sets. All 5 FARR sets are worth to get, Just becareful buying sight unseen on the union pacific set, because the gray paint used on this engine has a tendency to turn to an olive color due to where the engine is being stored. Sounds funny, but the best is to keep this engine out of the box, and in normal room temperature settings.

The aluminum passenger sets are great! I recommend putting traction tires on the passenger F3-s to pull well, and slightly upgrade.

As for the 8206 and 8603 small hudsons, check for wobbling, some engines were built with off center drive wheels, I have never encountered this problem, and i have 3 of each engine, and they all work flawlessly, even the first sound of steam board with the newly designed whistle in the 8206 Hudson works great! I love railsounds, but I still get a kick out of the electronic sound of steams and whistles, its NOT THAT BAD. Plus you can tweak them a little and make them sound better. I have many replacement circuit boards for sale if anyone needs to replace theirs, however usually they dont work, because the foam pad has rotted away making the circuit board come in contact with the metal frame. If your operating these steam engines with electronic sound of steam, I urge you to check board pad, if its rotted away, use double sided foam tape!

People laughed at me for the past several years for slowing down on collecting postwar and LTI, etc when i was concentrating on MPC, but I am laughing now, Latley, I have seen prices skyrocket on certain pieces, and ebay, well, just watch the bids on even the common cars. I think some people are getting tired of all the electronics, shipping delays, and high price in the new toy trains, and are starting to turn to reliable, and decent priced MPC trains. I still am looking for certain MPC items, and collect Postwar, LTI, and pick up some of the new Lionel, but MPC is still my favorite! Hey, its my generation, I am 31!

I would love for someone to come out with a new and updated MPC book, I offered to help Daivd Doyle, but I dont know what happened with project.

Mark G.

 

[3railguy]

There is nothing to be ashamed of collecting MPC. MPC made a lot of great stuff. A lot of it may not be made as well as postwar but it is made well enough. The graphics are often better. MPC is a 70's kind of thing. The 70's rocked.

Yep, Chief still has his liesure suit and a pair of plaid polyester slacks...

Ahh yes, the plaid polyester era. And it all started with the New Haven Mc Ginnis scheme.

[dougdagrump]

There is nothing to be ashamed of collecting MPC. MPC made a lot of great stuff. A lot of it may not be made as well as postwar but it is made well enough. The graphics are often better. MPC is a 70's kind of thing. The 70's rocked.

Yep, Chief still has his liesure suit and a pair of plaid polyester slacks...

The 70's, hopefully all of my photos from that time period will NEVER see the light of day ! 

[ChiefEagles]

Had several of those.  Had shirts with pictures on them.  HUMM long time ago.

[fifedog]

There is nothing to be ashamed of collecting MPC. MPC made a lot of great stuff. A lot of it may not be made as well as postwar but it is made well enough. The graphics are often better. MPC is a 70's kind of thing. The 70's rocked.

Yep, Chief still has his liesure suit and a pair of plaid polyester slacks...

[twaldie]

I'm not sure if 1979 falls into the MPC era (The box says Fundimensions), but the Trainmasters from that time period are great engines, too. I have four (Espee, Virginian, CNW and Southern) and they all run great, and didn't set me back too far financially. (All four for @ $700.)

They have two pullmors so they have no issues with pulling power.  The paint jobs aren't perfect, but I cant see the problems as the engines run by, so I don't care.  Maybe some day I will upgrade them to TMCC, if I can ever find a real Fairbanks-Morse sound chip.  The ship I was stationed on had F-M engines (still does), they sure had there own sound. A generic prime mover just wouldn't sound right...

Time to head to the salt mines, estimating production costs today! Some fun. Have a good day.

Tim 

[ChiefEagles]

There is nothing to be ashamed of collecting MPC. MPC made a lot of great stuff. A lot of it may not be made as well as postwar but it is made well enough. The graphics are often better. MPC is a 70's kind of thing. The 70's rocked.

[3railguy]

There is nothing to be ashamed of collecting MPC. MPC made a lot of great stuff. A lot of it may not be made as well as postwar but it is made well enough. The graphics are often better. MPC is a 70's kind of thing. The 70's rocked.

[cattle buyer]

I have quite a bit of MPC in my collection and not ashamed to admit it.  MPC came along in my early teen years.  As a teenager working in a poultry house, I wasn't getting rich but was able to make enough to start my collection.  With the first catalog and the 9200 series box cars, I was hooked.  Then the 9700 series started with Southern as the first car.  No turning back now.  I am with all my MPC purchases as the engines have been good runners and the rolling stock moves free and easily.

Over the years, there have been many who loved and many who disliked MPC.  But we must give credit where credit is due.  MPC was the bridge that's brought us trains guys to where we are today.  In the early '70's, railroading was dying, Lionel was dead.  If those were lost or destroyed, where would we be today?

 

 

[Warburton]

Cheese -- I have had several of the sets you mention. The F-3 passenger sets (UP, SP, IC, etc.) are excellent. Gorgeous deco and the engines are dual motored postwar style for the most part. Smooth runners.

Much of what they called their "Collector Series" from the 1980s is high qiality and, while lacking command control and Railsounds, is well worth having and running.

[Warburton]

Tom McComas (TM Books & Video) did a very thorough review of the early MPC days by interviewing those involved in the handover from postwar Lionel. This was first published back in the seventies and has long been out of print. If you can get hold of a copy, it makes fascinating reading!

[brianel027]

Well, on the upside, many of those cheaper items like the plastic DC steamers and the Kickapoo cars have loads of potential for improvement. My plastic bodied DC steamers, after my revisions, pull as good and even better than some postwar locomotives. They absolutely pull equally as good as any die-cast 4-4-2 I own, and at bargain prices too. They have plenty of nice cast in detail to the plastic shells, which with a little creative repainting, can be highlighted and made to look far better.

I bought a whole load of those Kickapoo Dump Cars super cheap, made some mods, put metal wheels on them and now have them painted in a wide variety of roads: Chessie, Penn Central, NYC, Norfolk Southern, Conrail, CSX, Lehigh Valley, B&O... I use HO decals for those cars. I operate the cars with a simple mechanism I made.

I can't defend the quality of many low end MPC sets. But on the other hand, I can't count the hobbiests I've talked to now who are in the hobby because of one of those cheap sets. And somewhat akin to the postwar guys, many of those younger guys have a fond attraction to that cheap MPC set they started with.

One fellow really wanted another Lionel MPC Cannonball Set like he got when he was a kid. He wanted me to find him one and was willing to pay up to a couple hundred to have one sealed. I told him with patience we could find one for less... maybe not sealed, but in near mint condition. But he was willing to pay far more than BOOK value because the real value of the set was in his heart... that it was his FIRST set!

And that story should sound familiar to most of us.

Seems to me, as HighrailJon pointed out, most of the criticism of MPC comes from the postwar collectors who remember how the trains were once made, and couldn't accept the new manufacturing techniques. Heck, there were plenty of el-cheapo original Lionel sets like the Scouts and the single axle drive Alco's and the other forward-only locos with no e-unit.

've read, regardless of the quality, most guys would never part with their first childhood train set if they still have it. And many go on buying quests to get it back. So those cheaper MPC sets certainly did their part. And the amazing thing is that many of them still work today... I know because I have a bunch. We'll see how many of the much nicer new electonically loaded trains are working 35 years from now... and if parts are available. 

[3railguy]

I think the worst MPC sets were the ones with DC powered plastic steamers with cars that had two fixed axles, plastic wheels, and fake truck side frames. The postwar carry over of the Pennsy A-5 style switcher is one of my favorite MPC steamers. SD-18's and SD-28's are my favorite diesels. They are brutish looking, good pullers, and have the better roller assembly.

[krapug1]

I have a large amount of MPC in my collection and since I only operate conventional engines, MPC fits right in.

Yes, there were some issues with MPC equipment, and some things done during the MPC era that we can question all we want. As an example, MPC took the PW Prarie Steamers, last made in the PW era as the 2-6-4, 2029, and created a 4-4-2 version. This die-cast 4-4-2 was used in the first sets with the 9500 seris passenger cars. These engines ran great, smoked well, had the Mighty Sound of Steam, BUT only had a 2 position reverse. The first whistle and horn developed by MPC sounded good, but required a faulty external controller (however my always reliable 8305 Milw Road and 8206 baby Hudson's whistles work just fine for me from my internal ZW whistle controller). The "wheel wobble" that was mentioned before mostly affects the 8206, and 8602 C & O baby Hudson's, if you buy one of these "sight unseen", and it was sold "as is", try removing the traction tires, sometimes this simple step eliminates the wheel wobble. The 8600 NYC, is a recreation of the PW 646, and this was the first MPC engine to have Magnetraction (sometimes the set box lists it, sometimes it does not).

MPC starter sets can sometimes be found for bargain prices, BUT MPC did make some entry level starter sets that were sub-par. When it comes to MPC starter sets stick with sets that had a plastic 2-4-2 steam engine as the base level, and go up from there. The aforementioned die-cast 4-4-2's were also used in some freight sets. The Empire State Express from 1976, and the Service Station Specials are sets to be on the lookout for.

MPC Geeps can be fun to collect, and come in a huge range of road names, the main problem here to avoid is an easy one, on SOME of the early IC, or CN Geeps, MPC used a hollow roller, all in one pick up truck that has a tendency to fall out at worst, and stall like crazy at best. The GP-20 was an MPC creation (with a simple modification of the GP 7/9 mold), and some of the graphics are superb, some like the LIRR are very plain.

Late in the MPC era, they did recreate the 773 Hudson, with the 783, stock number 8406. Granted this scale length chunk of metal is not the greatest puller, but it makes for a handsome, slowly moving freight train, it smokes like a beast, and has a geat sounding MSOS. Further this monster looks far more at home on 036 Fastrack, than it ever did on 031 tubular, the overhang is far less on Fastrack.

Most of the books written about the MPC era (Greenberg, Tuohy, etc) are good at pointing out both the good and the bad. The Tuohy book goes into great detail about how the MPC era came about in the furst place, and it's early years and struggles.

Enjoy!

Ken

[ChiefEagles]

SHHH SHHH.

[3railguy]

Great discussion!  I run MPC, postwar and modern.  But folks, don't talk MPC up too much.  I don't want the prices to increase!!! 

Rickster, Mpls., MN

I buy them [diesels] and convert them to command.  A little dressing up with extra decals and etc, look just as good as some of the new stuff out.

So that's why the origionals on ebay are rare! You're altering them!! And driving the prices up!