LOU......welcome to the thread on postwar FA-1 ALCos and the RI 2031.
I seem to have whacked my own post that contained a list of this RI band of brothers that you quoted. In it I think I noted that while the ALCo's won't make the list of TOP 5 POSTWARS (smaller than the near scale F3s and lacking the pulling power of a dual motored engine set), they were an integral part of the train stable for countless postwar baby boomers. I think I mentioned that I have seen excellent (rated) examples of the Rock Island 2031s on Ebay in the past year that sold for $1,000+, one that got $1,515.....not bad.
I only wish that more would post on their FA-1 ALCos, including the Union Pacific (2023 and 2033) and the Erie (2032). Or the later postwar 2XX samples that introduced many more road names and sets that included a B unit.
These deisels got many of us into the train hobby when the retail price of an F3 was simply out of reach.
Jack
sessal wrote: RockIsland52 wrote: Back to the Rock Island 2031 and postwar ALCo discussion. There now seems to be just 4 of us band of brothers on the Forum with the 2031: ogauge/Dennis H., 3railguy/John L., you, and me.Please add me to the list RI 2031 AA owners.Two years ago I purchased a small postwar collection (no boxes) from a gentlemen whose real estate properties my son was doing electrical maintenance for. They were talking one day, and he mentioned to my son that he had some old trains for sale. The RI 2031 Alco AA set was included among a 2025 steam engine and tender, numerous freight cars, Chatham green passenger car (don't know if he ever had the complete set), operating cattle and milk cars, 456 Coal Ramp, Rotary Beacon, Highway Signal, and ZW transformer in the collection. Everything is in operating condition. Lou
RockIsland52 wrote: Back to the Rock Island 2031 and postwar ALCo discussion. There now seems to be just 4 of us band of brothers on the Forum with the 2031: ogauge/Dennis H., 3railguy/John L., you, and me.
Back to the Rock Island 2031 and postwar ALCo discussion. There now seems to be just 4 of us band of brothers on the Forum with the 2031: ogauge/Dennis H., 3railguy/John L., you, and me.
Please add me to the list RI 2031 AA owners.
Two years ago I purchased a small postwar collection (no boxes) from a gentlemen whose real estate properties my son was doing electrical maintenance for. They were talking one day, and he mentioned to my son that he had some old trains for sale.
The RI 2031 Alco AA set was included among a 2025 steam engine and tender, numerous freight cars, Chatham green passenger car (don't know if he ever had the complete set), operating cattle and milk cars, 456 Coal Ramp, Rotary Beacon, Highway Signal, and ZW transformer in the collection. Everything is in operating condition.
Lou
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
RockIsland52 wrote:Back to the Rock Island 2031 and postwar ALCo discussion. There now seems to be just 4 of us band of brothers on the Forum with the 2031: ogauge/Dennis H., 3railguy/John L., you, and me.
I won't mention the price I paid for everything, but suffice to say the seller was satisfied with my offer and I received far more than my money's worth from this collection.
AA Pair of 1950 Union Pacific 2023 grey nose ALCos went for $4,995 on Ebay, won by a bidder at a live auction. They must be rarer than I thought.
I have both the 2031 and 2041 Rock Islands Alcos. I am under the impression that of all the regular production early alcos, being the yellow UP, Erie, grey & silver UP, all siver UP, and Rock Island, that the Rock Island brings the biggest dollar. I know that I have seen less 2031's than any of the others. I also think it looks the best.
As has been posted, the 2041's were made in 1960 only. Folks who were in the hobby back in the early 1970's may recall that Lionel held a big parts clearance sale, and released a very large quantity of 2041 cabs, as well as 2024 cabs, and unpainted FM and F3 cabs. They may have done EP-5 cabs too. I am not positive on the EP-5. There were also horse car and caboose cabs.
Because these cabs were readily available, many people, myself included, used these cabs to replace broken ones, regardless of the original roadname. So both the 2024 and 2041 cabs often show up on the wrong chassis. Finding them on the correct chassis is actually rather difficult.
A large quantity of 2041 cabs with the red band, but no lettering also became available a while back. I don't recall exactly when, but it was after 1984, and before Madison Hardware closed in NYC. According to what I was told by the owners, the cabs came from Madision Hardware.
I just got home from a train show, where I paid list price for a 1950 773 with 2426W tender.
For those who might not have been following this topic, the list price was $50. I put it on the track and just now powered it up. It runs fine, the e-unit works, the headlight lights, the smoke unit smokes, and the whistle blows. It's a little dirty; and the tender is missing a wheelset, some railings, and some steps.
It was in one of those big plastic tubs that venders push under the table. I saw the tender first. It took me a second to realize that one of the locomotives in the tub belonged to it. The vender was a G-scaler and seemed anxious to get rid of the stuff. When he asked for $50, I paused a second, trying not to seem too eager, before agreeing. I tipped a few three-railers off. I hope he asked a little more for the rest of the early prewar pieces that he had when he saw how popular they were.
Bob Nelson
This is the closest I could come matching the Lionel postwar 2031 ALCo FA-1 paint color and scheme to the real deal.
The FB-1 was the B unit in real life and, as discussed in a previous post, was a common part of various engine configurations, though Lionel never produced a dummy B unit to go with the AA pair. The 2031 engines were released as an AA pair and were not sold as part of a set.
While I read the ALCo FA-1 was utilized in both a freight and passenger capacity (including commuter rail), I could only find pictures of Rock Islands hauling freight. I also could not find where any of the 16 original RI FA-1 ALCos survived the scrap heap. More research needed.
CLICK ON PICTURES TO ENLARGE
Another way for people to understand why folks may have bypassed a postwar F3 and chose an ALCo FA is the 24% price differential between them. Or the 54% price differential between the two Hudsons!
Jack;
You make a good point. $ 20.00 or $ 30.00, or $ 45.00 doesn't seem like much today, but back in the 1940's and 1950's that really was a good size piece of change. I was always thankful for whatever I received for my train, even if it was just a Plasticville building or two!!!
Mel Hazen; Jax, FL Ride Amtrak. It's the only way to fly!!!
Thank you Bob and Mel for the retail pricing on these 1950 engines.
It is easy wonder why folks wouldn't spring for the pricier units when so few extra dollars were involved. The fact of the matter was, post war, things were not all a bed of roses. I lived in a 2 bedroom apartment with my parents, 2 sisters, and my grandfather. Housing was tight until new housing caught up with the explosion in population.
Birds.....you read my mind. Interesting stuff. I had just gotten to the point of determining with Bob's help that on the front end one would have paid 54% more in 1950 for a 773 Hudson versus a 2046 Hudson of the same year. Most of us wish we knew back then what time and rarity would bring now?
Need to hunt down an inflation chart.
Thanks,
Here's a fun perspective.
According to one inflation calculator, in 2007 dollars (adjusted for inflation from 1950) those products would cost the following today...
2343 & 2344 = $370.91
2343C & 2344C = $101.89
2330 = $319.75
622 = $213.16
736 = $319.75
6035 = $319.75
681 = $277.11
2036 = $182.32
The Fa's you refer to came out in 1952. The F-3's that year were $ 47.50 for the double A and $ 13.75 for the B unit. I have Greenburg's Lionel Catalog book that has all catalogs from 1945-1954.
Bob........thanks for the help. How do you know this stuff? Anyone know what the retail price tag was on an F3 way back then?
In 1950, the 2023 was $35, the 773 was $50, and the 2046 was $32.50.
I've been following with interest the "Top 5 Postwar Engines." Fortunately for me, my father got (me/us) into the hobby at an early age, beginning by buying Lionel during the year before I was born.....which tells you he was betting on a boy. And if he lost the bet, nasty break. He was stuck with them.
What is curious to me is that for the most part the gifts from my father are not the engine items most posters list in the Top 5. My collection is nonetheless priceless to me because of the zillions of hours of play time, some of which was spent with a father who worked 7 days a week and had precious little time to spend with me. But he made the time.
I know money was a factor when he started buying back then because we lived in an apartment, a family of 5 plus a grandfather. Tight squeeze. While financial matters were not his area of study or profession, he did ok over time; and we were able to live comfortably.
That brings me to my question: can anyone tell me the original list price differential on a couple of things?
(1) My cartons for the FA1 2031 and 2023 Alcos have a printed price of $39.95. Does anyone know what the list price was of the F3 diesel engine sets which were released during the same time frame?
(2) In 1950, the 3 window 2046 Hudson was released. So was the 773. I have the 2046 which is what my father selected. Does anyone know the list price of these 2 Hudsons back then?
The purpose of my inquiry is simple. To backfill some family lore about my trains: where, when, how, and why they were acquired. And what they have meant to me and my father. Being somewhat of a wise guy, I always think of that Indiana Jones Harrison Ford Holy Grail movie where the knight, protecting the Grail, deadpans to the greedy bad guy who drank from the cup: "You chose unwisely."
This is the same guy (my father) who talked me out of a large block 1967 Corvette convertible and a 1966 Jaguar XKE convertible when I was buying my first car back in the early 1970s, couldn't afford one until then. I followed his advice and wound up with another Corvette, but today's classic car market prices demonstrate "I chose unwisely." Yuk yuk.
The Top 5 postwars thread demonstrate the value of a crystal ball. If my father had chosen a 2343 F3 or a 773 Hudson..........
Thank you for your help.
I've been wandering around the net, looking at some of the RI Rocket sets and the Marx #99. Does anyone have these, and what has been your experience? I have not ventured outside Lionel, yet, for this RR line.
krapug1 wrote: RockIsland52 wrote:I think the only numerical identification on the Lionel postwar Rock Island 2031 ALCo FAs is the lighted number boards, nothing to rub off.In the Boxcar Frank videos I linked, he describes the the power unit as a 2031 and the dummy unit as a 2041. Did the 2041 have lighted number boards?JackLet me correct what I said, as I reversed it. The 1969 Rock Island AA alco was numbered 2041, both powered and dummy. The number 2041 appears below the cab on the lower part of the engine body, this is the number to watch out for being rubbed off, as it can make a 2041, LOOK like a 2031.The 2041 has solid black, number boards, with no numbers, no plastic glass in the cab windows, and a 2 position reverse. As noted the 2031 AA combo, has no 2031 number on the engine itself, but it should have 2031 lenses in the number board slot.It's my MCComas/Tuohy book that makes mention of the fact that the much cheaper 2041, can easily be made to look like the 2031.Ken
RockIsland52 wrote:I think the only numerical identification on the Lionel postwar Rock Island 2031 ALCo FAs is the lighted number boards, nothing to rub off.In the Boxcar Frank videos I linked, he describes the the power unit as a 2031 and the dummy unit as a 2041. Did the 2041 have lighted number boards?Jack
I think the only numerical identification on the Lionel postwar Rock Island 2031 ALCo FAs is the lighted number boards, nothing to rub off.
In the Boxcar Frank videos I linked, he describes the the power unit as a 2031 and the dummy unit as a 2041. Did the 2041 have lighted number boards?
Well, loosely maybe becasue it (2041) has a sheet metal frame and the 2031 has a diecast metal frame and front skirt. On the 2041 the skirt is part of the body shell. So you would have to cut of the 2041 skirt and add the shell installation brackets on the inside, with rivits to try to fake one. Heck, I've thought of cutting the front skirt off an old 224 Navy alco I had and to install on a nice early diecast frame. Maybe someone else has done it!
Jack, these are 1994 cars, 16068 through 16074, two sets less one combine and one observation.
I just coupled the two-motor 2023 and a 2383 for a tug-of-war. It was a draw. They sat in one spot, on O27 tubular track, with both locomotives' wheels slipping.
I think the early adopters of Diesel locomotives did worry about which units went where, often not paying the extra cost of couplers between units, to support their theory that multiple Diesel units were still one locomotive, not requiring a crew per unit. Santa Fe in particular made a point of running theirs in ABBA sets. The manufacturers co-operated with the railroads in this. The first paragraph in the operating manual for the F3 says,
"The F3 locomotive consists of one or more units rated at 1500 HP each....The 1500 HP locomotives are single 'A' units, the 3000 HP either 'AA' or 'AB' arrangement. The 4500 HP locomotives are 'ABA' or 'ABB' consist while the 6000 HP are 'ABBA' or 'ABBB' arrangement."
Dennis and Bob.....in pulling power, how would you rank your dual motored powered ALCo A units vesus the postwar F3 dual motored power units?
I may scuttle the idea of securing a non-matching unpowered B unit like a New Haven 209, repainting the shell to the appropriate RI color scheme, and motorizing it. The NH B unit detail still would not match up to the RI AA pair.
I know the actual Rock Island ran F1 ALCos with B units. I have seen photos of A, AB, ABA, and ABBA combinations. And I suppose in real life a railroad didn't much care if the A and B engines matched up when additional power was needed.
The video link to Boxcar Frank on youtube shows what he describes as a 2031 powered unit and a 2041 dummy, but he makes no mention of perhaps dual motors in the powered A unit. The layout is the Chicagoland Lionel Railroad Club, and no grade is shown in the video. The cab lights in the engines are fairly bright, so I would assume a higher voltage used to pull that many freights.
The youtube videos show the postwar ALCos pulling 15 freight cars in one and 22 in another. Granted, the cars selected may be lighter than the 24XX series passenger cars. But based on my experience, I can't see a single motored ALCo doing that without at least some sort of tractive assist (tires?).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPIARnbkVLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhywesFtQtM
Bob, you mentioned pulling 12 of the 2400 series passenger cars, but you didn't say which ones. I have to go back to my inventory as all my stuff is packed away (no layout). But I believe I have 5 of the 242X and 3 of the 243X.
Jack, Yes same as Bob, I've run two powered 2031's and its much better than a single. Also used to run two powered single motor early 2245 Texas Specials and that was nice as well, of course with the 2245 F-3's it would be no big deal to add the second motor and powered truck!
Ogauge (Dennis H) and 3rail (John L) have the 2031 RI postwar ALCos. Does anyone operate a pair of motorized postwar ALCo FA A units (2023, 2031, or 2032s) to crank up the pulling capacity and compete with the dual motored F3s?
Lionel 2031s in action
I've been thinking of picking up another pair of 2023 and 2031 AA to accomplish this if the bang is worth the buck and the condition is near what I have.
They are indeed undersized. The prototypes were very nearly the same size as F3s. Lionel's F3 models are almost perfectly to scale, while the Alcos are obviously smaller. But they do make a better match for the also-undersized 2400-series streamliners.
The postwar Lionel site can be very useful. But you have to take it with a grain of salt. It includes more than a few mistakes.
Jack,
A good source for answers to many of the questions you have posed on this thread is: postwarlionel.com.
And to clear up any lingering confusion, both the 2343 (SF) and 2344 (NYC) F3s by Lionel were dual motored with Magnatraction...and they run beautifully. I'm currently pulling 25 cars with one of them with power to spare.
I like the looks of the early Alcos, but don't currently have any, perhaps because they seem somewhat undersized.
runtime
Jack, you are correct they never made the early alco with a B unit. Sure, with some work, you could power a later alco B unit, but it would be easier to use the later cheap motor truck instead of the good early motor and seperate truck. The two different combos might not run well together. I don't know that the detail is all that different, I suspect the original tool was modified for the later alco front skirt. Well, My two Alco sets have made it through another sell time period in tact.
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