I think there was a 2XX Navy B unit too. I don't remember the number right now. This one is rather rare, though.
There are later 6-XXXXX series B units out there too. The most common seems to be an Amtrack unit. I've also seen Santa Fe, Canadian National B units. Probably others, too. I suspect that the later units are very similar to the 2XX B units.
8n.......The 2XX ALCo FAs with B units that I know of: #217 (Boston and Maine), #218 (SF), #226 (Boston and Maine), and #229 (Minneapolis & St. Louis). Are there others?
Jack.
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
I've not acquired a 200 series B unit, or any 20XX A units yet. Maybe somebody else has made this comparison.
Since the comments in this thread about the 20XX A units call them smaller than scale, I'm going to guess that they are simialr to the 200 series Alcos, therefore, the 200 series B units should be close in size.
Early in the planning stages for my Frankenstein A-B-A unit, I floated the question of the switching capacity of a three position e-unit. Bob Nelson was kind enough to quote from a Lionel service manual that the three position e-unit was capable of running four motors. This information set the number of motors in the drivetrain, which set the locomotive configuration as A-B-A.
Welcome to the Forum, Artboy! 8N knows his stuff re ALCo pricing, and I agree with him that following the actual "completed listings" on Ebay over time is a closer measure of what the market will pay. What amazes me sometimes is the range of what people are willing to pay: some pay too much and some get a steal. Even in the same time frame! Judging from the pictures and descriptions, poorer examples often fetch higher prices than the better examples!
Re your 2031s, since they are from your childhood I would be inclined to hang on to them, especially because the RI is kind of like a forgotten railroad.
8N.....I have been following your 2XX AICo quest and really like the options you have with the availability of B units which I feel in an ABA or ABBA setup is far more prototypical of the era, particularly with the freight consists or the mountain-duty passenger lines.
Bob Nelson (earlier in this thread) mentioned he runs an interconnected 20XX AA set-up with both units powered, giving him the pulling power of the dual motored F3s. Your proposed set-up will give you twice the motors (4)! That ought to suck up some voltage and haul a bunch.
Have you ever placed a 2XX B unit alongside a 20XX A unit to see how they compare size-wise? Appearance wise? None of the Lionel postwar 20XX engines had an available B unit, powered or otherwise. And I was wondering if anyone ran a 2XX B unit repainted to match their 20XX AA engine sets. I sure would like to add B units to my 2023s and 2031s if they looked close enough to appear matched.
BTW.....no such thing as "over the edge."
Jack
Welcome to the forum, Artboy. Lots of knowledge here in this forum.
You can check the price guides for potential value of your 2031's, or closer to reality, watch similar units being sold on e-bay.
This is an interesting thread. I have been collecting bits and pieces of 200 series Alcos to put together an A-B-A set with 4 magnetraction motors. Each A unit will have one, the B unit will have two. All will be interconnected and operate off of a single e-unit.
I've picked up a couple of #205 A unit shells, so I'll end up painting the B unit to match. I still need a B unit, or at least a shell. I am considering cutting two A unit frames and welding the motor ends together to get the two motor B unit chassis - I have access to a MIG welder at work. I'll be sure to take pictures when I finally do the project.
This last step makes me wonder if maybe I've gone too far over the edge in this hobby......
Hey Jack, and others...
I have a Rock Island (2031) I am interested in selling. They run well, but need some tlc. One of the winshields is missing. There is a paint isuue on the rear unit, where the red band was painted over.
The trucks need to be cleaned. I have the engine services several years ago and she pulls well with the mag-wheels.
I am trying to determine what they are worth. I am the only owner since 1955,
Anyway, let me know, I am not sure how to download a photo , but I can if somone can tell me how to on this site,
thanks
Artboy
If you resort to spray paint, try the "bounce-spray" method for a very fine misting. You actually spray the paint onto cardstock strategically placed so that the mist & propellant bouncing off the card hits the intended target. Prevents over application when using spray cans.
Rob
asch and BF.........thank you for your suggestions. Well, I made some progress, but not enough, with a stiffer toothbrush and the Dawn/water solution. Think I will see what the use of an eyedropper and a masked and defined spot soaking will loosen if I keep the grill wet for a couple of hours before scrubbing with the toothbrush..
I too noticed the obvious "purple" cast to a loco or a car when trying to touch up a nick (formerly black) with either a sharp tipped wet ink pen and particularly with a Sharpie.
Sad to say I may have to either live with the ugly grill or cave on the black spray paint approach. A dusting as you suggest can always be repeated until the nooks and crannies get filled in. At least the surface will be free from loose dirt and lubricant residue!
Ever since I started paying attention to how pristine others' trains appear in the forum photos, I have grown somewhat dissatisfied with the condition of my own stuff which survived my youth.. Perfection I suppose is not the order of the day. Fun and memories are.
Rob's technique may work.
In my experience, the final resort has been to mask carefully and repaint, using very thin spray coats,* and as few of them as possible to get rid of the chalky look. (You don't want to lose any more of the detail than you absolutely have to.)
Some collectors wouldn't dream of any repainting, of course.
*Just the merest dusting of completely mixed black paint per coat. Some folks have tried ink from a felt-tip pen. It's thin enough, but I have had poor luck with them because the brands that I have tried seem to dry to an uneven sheen with an annoying purple iridescence.
A new stiff toothbrush, & Dawn detergent with water. The Dawn should float out the dirt.
Does anyone know of a safe way to clean out the roof grid on a postwar 2031 RI Alco? The black plastic really shows the crud in the textured grid. I suspect this is mostly dust and dirt from about 54 years ago when my cleaning skills as a 5 year old left something to be desired.
In the grill only......I started out with a toothbrush and plain water. Then a little solution of dish detergent and water, Broke out the toothpicks. They still look bad and stick out like a sore thumb when compared to the condition of the rest of the shell.
I don't want to soak the painted parts of the shell because I don't want to damage or remove the paint (red and the white) nor do I want to screw up the nose decal or lettering.
Thanks,
Mark......neither my Rock Island 2031s or Union Pacific 2023s have lenses in the portholes, and my 2023s never saw track time. Can't speak for the Erie 2032 or UP silver 2033. But I don't think any of the early FA1 ALCOs had porthole lenses in them. The Lionel F3s certainly had porthole lenses. The original porthole lenses yellowed with age, so if you lost one or two and replaced them, the replacements' clear appearance stuck out. More common problem than people think.
I wouldn't run your early 2031s much until you figure a way mitigate the heat that transfers to the roof of the powered unit's shell. As you pointed out, the 1952 versions of these engines had the plain flat roof while the small round dimple was added for 1953 and 1954 after the earlier versions suffered roof distortion from the heat. That's not an urban legend. You can see clearly see the distortion on ebay photos if the 1952 engines for sale have significant run time on them, exact same spot.
I don't understand why Lionel added a dimple to the plastic shell casting/mold rather than add a heat shield of some sort. For a manufacturer, it seems like a mold change or alteration would have been far more expensive than a simpler fix.
Also, it is very difficult to acquire 2031s with an intact white trim line on the shell as this was the first thing to chip or flake off, either from collisions or from box rubs.
Jack, got the 2351 milwalkee road cleaned/oiled and running. it runs great. fwd/rev and the horn works too. also had took the 682 steamer w/ 2026w tender and cleaned and oiled them up. had to resoder a wire for the tender. but both look great. with the 682 looking C7+. the rollers wheels and finish is close to like new. I did order a new smoke unit and the oil lubracator linkage for both sides. must of came off over the years ... found one original linkage but still ordered 2 to make sure a match plus the 2 screws too. both these going on ebay. I bought a set of F3's from 1951 all 3 units so have to get some cash to help pay for them. I have the Rock Islands in front of me and have been scoping them out. I am not a expert but they look C9 to me.. going to take them to a train shop and see what they say. rollers and wheels are cherry .. maybe a test run but a short one. battery compartment like the day it was made and no hits on the bodys. paint looks fresh. they came in the original carton from 1952. these are the rarer "flat roof" then that produced after 1952. I do have on question.. the round holes in the sides. did they ever have lenes? these dont. Mark
Are there any diesel B units out there, regardless of brand, that match up best by dimension and close enough in detail to the lionel postwar ALCo FA-1 AA units and, in particular, to the RI 2031 and UP2023s?
I suppose I should start looking again at pictures of the Lionel 2XX ALCo B units first from the late 50s and early 60s, but I would prefer the personal experience of someone and not have to rely on photos from ebay or elsewhere. None of the 2XX ALCos came in the RI roadname WITH a B unit, though the 231 was produced in AA and was a close match to the 2031 colors. I recall that Marx sold a ABA Rock Island Rocket set back in the 1970s, but those weren't FA/FB units. The 2XX ALCo FAs with B units that I know of: #217 (Boston and Maine), #218 (SF), #226 (Boston and Maine), and #229 (Minneapolis & St. Louis).
My intention is to secure and repaint the B unit(s) to match my 2031 Rock Island and 2023 Union Pacific AA pairs since Lionel never made B units for these original Postwars, nor one for the 2032 Eries or the Silver 2033 UPs. Yet in real life B units were very common to these.
I realize that I asked this question about 5 months ago, but it drew a blank. Hoping some newer members or revisiting old Forum members may have ventured down this path and have stumbled upon this thread and post.
Mark......sorry for the two week delay in answering your post, but I've been awol from the Forum.
Regarding your track cleaning question with older rusted and oxidized O27 tubular track. Do a search on "Cleaning old stored track" or visit this link http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/139448/1555083.aspx#1555083
The track cleaning process is long and tedious, but simple. I took the advice of some forum members who advised to buy new track since the O27 tubular is relatively inexpensive. Got myself up and running. Then added track to the set-up as I slogged through the cleaning process with the older stuff.
Another alternative might be to make an investment in upgrading your track to something more realistic looking (and more expensive), like Lionel Fastrac (another Forum search for track ideas) for the longer term. Also, I soon realized that O27 replacement wasn't such a great idea because the curve radius was a too tight for some of the O gauge scale or near scale engines and cars, both in realistic appearance and for functionality, now but especially for the future.
You have built a stable of what I consider some choice pieces. This is a hobby that can grow and change since the choices are limited only by time, money, and your imagination. But for me, there is more fun in running than collecting.
Personally, when getting back into the hobby after taking my stuff out of decades of storage, I found it daunting to try and tackle everything at once. I wanted a Christmas layout to start. So I simply got some of my stuff serviced, worked on puttering myself with some other engines, cleaned up/lubricated cars one at a time, and bought track. In the short term I could play. Instant gratification so to speak.
Regarding storage, I use Rubbermaid or similar plastic storage bins with dehumidification packets and also commandeered closet space in a climate controlled area of the house so whatever progress I made was not surrendered back to the elements. Many of my original boxes were beyond help, so many of the freight and passenger cars are wrapped in old cotton t-shirts to prevent scratches when not in use.
It sounds like you have what I consider some choice pieces. The original 2343 Santa Fe F3 AA units you seek are plentiful and reasonable in price until you focus in on C6 and above items.....then the price really escalates rapidly. Since these postwar 2343s are prodigious pullers (dual motored) and the among the most detailed of the F3s, you pretty much are going to get what you pay for from the cosmetic sense, unless you want to spring for a (shell) restoration, professional or otherwise.
My 5 year old granddaughter came over right after Thanksgiving and asked me why the Christmas layout wasn't set up yet. So I looked knowingly at my daughter and son-in-law and asked if they were sure Santa had his priorities straight. She seems to gravitate toward the steamers. A postwar Baldwin Berkshire would sure look fine running on Grampy's track. I'd even supply the cars and store it at my place for free.
Jack, thanks for the links, most helpful. One problem I have is some of my 1957 track has tarnished over the years, what would be the best cleaning method to bring back the original luster without causing any deteriation of the metal? as for my zw275, I did purchase a new lionel cord via ebay to replace the died cracked one. The patina on the 2351 milwaukee road I hope to remove with mild detergent or pledge. I would think it grades a high C-6 or C-7 but its original, complete with pantagraphs and battery compartment is gem. I do buy off Ebay and Nette now and then but am not schooled in what to look for in replacement parts. I noticed you can buy alot of repo parts like wheels and rollers. So that makes me wary of really getting a C-8 or higher car and finding out its wheels, rollers, lenses, ect. have been replaced. Cause your are bidding on original and may end up with repo. I hope to have the 2031 Alco units up on board and running by early December. Pulling a line of period early 1950's cars. Would like to have the 2351 running on a inner or outer track at same time hauling a set of mid to late 50's period cars. Have to have the timmings to... that to me is just as important... period trimmings. lights, beacons, towers, derrick, tunnels.. ect. Like I stated before, I am just amazed at the scope and quailty of post war lionel out there. As I am typing, I had to go grab my 2351 and scope it out again.. for a engine from 1957 .... no rust, one hair line crack by a end rivet on one end. otherwise some patina and dust and a few minor play wear scuffs. wheels and rollers show the wear. along with that diesel are 2 smokers with tender from back then. a 682 C-7 and a 2020 C-6. those I will drop off at a local lionel shop for a going over. The 2046W-50 tender too and the box is in decent shape. I have the time over the winter now to dive in and get them up and running. So any other info on boarding these up, just drop me a line. And I will keep you posted on my progress. Aol has taken my picture posting space away now.. I guess they are trying to make more money. otherwise I would of posted up some pics. anyway thanks for now.. I will keep posting. Mark
Mark.....what I and others have found with the postwar ALCos (2023, 2031, 2032, and 2033) is that they are quite capable of pulling a respectable number of cars. They are not prodigious pullers, however. Not so much because the motor isn't up to it but because on a relative basis they are lighter than the dual engined F3s and steamers, for example.
Even with the magnetraction, wheelspin comes into play when the number of cars' weight becomes excessive. I have hauled as many as a dozen freight cars, carefully chosen for their lighter weight. Or 6 of the 242X and 243X passenger cars. No problem. There is a a couple of threads in the Forum where guys posted the number of cars they have been able to pull with their engines! Once moving, however, the Alcos can fly with a decent consist.
The real Rock Island ALCo FA-1 pictures I have been able to find and their history indicate that a more correct consist would be freight set up. Sadly, the early postwar Lionel ALCos did not come with an avaulable B unit. And many of the actual road sets did contain the B unit.
Without engine modification, you want the magnetraction to be strong, the track super clean, engine's drive wheels clean, and the cars being hauled well oiled with no axel debris. I have not read of anyone adding weight over or proximal to the drive wheels on the ALCos to increase traction, though the motor seems up to it without overloading it.
If you visited the links I previously posted, you will see a pair of AA 2031 ALCos hauling over 20 freight cars. I suspect the dummy A unit isn't a dummy but is actually powered. And the freight cars are primarily box cars. Bob Nelson who posted in this thread powered his ALCo dummy unit, giving him 2 powered A units. And he reported that he played tug of was between his ALCos and a dual motored F3........a stalemate.
I grew up about 2 miles from the Milwaukee Road tracks in Chicago. In 1957 I would have been 6, and I recall them fondly. So your Milwaukee Road set would be of interest to me. The Hiawatha, sadly, was a little before my time.
If you want a quick on-line reference, check out www.postwarlionel.com. for pictures and descriptions of postwar engines and rolling stock.
I like to tinker, but I know my limitations. I do all of the simple stuff like cleaning and lubrication, rewiring, changing brushes and brush springs and light bulbs, and similar stuff. When it comes to something like a balky e-unit or horn, I read this Forum and ask questions, then apply. If it's a no go, I bring my stuff to my repair shop. I would suggest with the AlCos you open them up and just take a look. Also, I will find an illustration from Classic Toy Trains with an illustration of the 2023 UP ALCo for your reference. Just take it slow and note how it comes apart so you can get it back together. It really is a fairly simple engine. Try this for the ALCo illustration: http://www.trains.com/ctt/default.aspx?c=a&id=786. And for some good general info on getting your old stuff up and running: http://www.trains.com/ctt/default.aspx?c=a&id=543.
Like you, my stuff is primarily 1950-1960. I am not a collector but spend my time tinkering with and operating what I have. There is another thread in this Forum on the top 10 postwar engines. Look it up and read it.......it will get the juices flowing! I have started an acquisition list of engines, and an F3 like you mentioned is on my list of must haves. Even if I need to do some restoration including the shell. Especially want an ABA combination. I've been torn between some of the Williams F3s or the postwar Lionels. With Williams, I could get a C8 or better for a very reasonable price; but I am drawn to the older stuff. Check this Top 10 thread out: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/137508/1552395.aspx#1552395
I'm using the same ZW, and it's never been serviced! It is time for an electrical cord replacement, though. You'd think they's make these things a little better!
Hope you stick around and post. You'll like it here.
Jack, Thats what my interest is now to get one nice operating set going. you guys have more uptodate knowledge on operating and what to look for than I. I have gotten the lionel set catalog and ref books to bring me up to some idea of a period set with the trimmings. My childhood set is still here. Its a 1957 Milwalkee Road and there are some smokers in the boxes too. I am scoping out the Stout auctions which go off tonite for some 1950 to 1959 lionel to keep in that time frame. and have the game room all cleared to get the board up and rip into the stuff I have packed away the last few years. I like originality ... period contained presentation. so the trimmings like train stations.. deriks...towers ect will be from the same frame. learnig from the lionel catalogs which shows the different trucks , box type .. track difference ect was interesting. I will use the the 1952 2031 Rock Islands I have. like the look and hope the are enought to pull a string of cars. there are two Rock Islands going off in the stout auctions... a single A from 1960 and a set yellow from 1963. On the operating set do you think it would be wise to have a train guy check over everything before use or more of a doit yourselfer path? And what do you look for in quality and scarcity when you add to your set and accesories? For transfromers... I have one ZW 275 from the 1956 set which still works fine. Mark
Mark......after reading your posts, I took a trip to ebay to check out the current prices on the postwar 2023, 2031, 2032, and 2033 ALCos. In another thread about the effect of the economy on ebay pricing, some had a gut feeling that prices had moderated or fallen, the number of bidders was down, and a lot of not so fresh older stuff was being pulled out of storage and being sold off.
I don't know if this is the case, but there has been a significant increase in the number of the 2031 Rock Islands on the market in the past 4 weeks. My impression was that the offerings were in generally poorer shape and the condition ratings and descriptions inflated more than usual. Prices seem unchanged or flat.
My postwar stuff is operator grade since I got it starting at age 4 in the 1950s, and each piece has the evidence of play. That being said, compared to the condition of even the highest priced 2031 sellers, I'd keep mine. C6+. I have resisted cosmetic touch ups......so far, focusing on keeping my collection clean and operationally sound.
Did you go far enough back in the thread to see the pics I posted of the Lionel ALCos and the real FA-1s?
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPIARnbkVLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhywesFtQtM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtWMMIHOC7Q
Jack, Haven't run them yet. been trying to get some more quality postwar pieces to put together a detailed layout. I like the lionel era from 1950 to 1959 and thats where my collecting focus has been over the years. I am one of those guys who has enough for a layout but always waiting for another piece. I am just amazed at the availibility of choice lionel post war pieces still around. Mark
WELCOME TO THE FORUM, MARK. OUR 2031 ROCK ISLAND FA-1 NUMBERS ARE GROWING, ALBEIT SLOWLY! ARE YOU RUNNING YOURS?
JACK
New to this form... Just re-energized my interest in Lionels Post-War. Been collecting over the years mostly C8 to Mint with original boxes. So in reference to the 2031 posts... I purchased a set box 2175W 1951 with a complete set quite a few years ago.. when it arrived, instead of the Santa Fe 2343 twins... there was a seperate sale set box of 2031 Rock Islands.. C8 to C9 depending on your view point and whose selling and whose buying. the 1952 rarer production flat roof. with boxes and inserts all orig. the rest of the cars in the 2175W set where in the same conditon and the original set cars from the 2175W set. Set box too was and still is in C-8 to C-9 Shape. Been looking for a set of Santa Fe's 2343 from 1951 with original boxes and inserts to finish the set.... in C8 to C9. anyway.... I love the look of the 2031.. paint and striping are great. So as I am re-energized..... I would appreciate anyone pointing me into a direction of quaility lionel Santa Fe 2343 1951 to finish that set up ... Mark
Jack, in fact, I have been kicking myself ever since for not making him an offer for the whole thing. I even heard him say to his friend before I bought the 773 that he would like to sell the lot. But I was so surprised by his low number that I didn't have the presence of mind to ask his price for all of it. I never imagined that he would go so low.
The local modular club is having a public affair this afternoon. I'm thinking of taking the locomotive up there to show it off.
Bob Nelson
Bob.......I'm surprised you didn't clean the guy out. Maybe you wanted to run as fast as you could with the 773, worried the guy would change his mind.
I ran into one of the guys today that I tipped off about the vendor who sold me the 1950 773 for $50. He said that the vendor continued to sell off the rest of the tubs at ridiculously low prices even after the word got out. I think he said the 2343 and 2344 ABA sets went for about $30 each and a 2332 for something similar.
LIONEL # 2023 UP ALCo FA-1 DIESEL AA UNITS (1950-1951)
UNION PACIFIC ALCo FA-1 #1632
LIONEL # 2031 ROCK ISLAND ALCo FA-1 DIESEL AA UNITS (1952-1954)
I actually really like that prototype paint scheme above, always have. I have the 2032 Erie's as well. I was lucky enough to aquire them via my father from a fellow employee. The lot included the complete 1467W outfit and a 44, 6844,3410 helo car and a bunch of other stuff all really nice. Its neat when you can find trains that way and get the story. Funny thing was here, my dad paid him some money and the co-worker, being a big gun guy, wanted to buy another gun. Story goes the wife decided they needed a fence instead. Good stuff, we all go through it!
There now seems to be just 5 of us band of brothers on the Forum with the postwar RI 2031 ALCo: ogauge/Dennis H., 3railguy/John L., sessal, cwburfle, and me.
Dennis has actually gone out on a limb and included this one as an honorable mention in the Top 5 postwar engines thread. I may have to join his bandwagon before the poles are closed on the Top 5 thread.
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