I have been reading and posting on this forum for a couple of months as well as checking the forum's archives and have not seen anyone else post about their Lionel Rock Island 2031 Alco AA (FAs ?) that were manufactured between 1952 and 1954. I have this engine set.
There have been discussions about the 2023 UPs (1950-1951), the 2033 UPs (1952-1954), and the 2032 Erie Alcos (1952-1954). I have the yellow nose AA 2023s as well, and the mechanicals are very similar to the 2031s.
Of the whole bunch, I think that the 2023 Grey Nose seems to be the rarest because the production run with this color scheme ran only a few months.
I thought the others including the 2031s that I have were quite common and that there would be a lot of baby boomers on this forum that had a pair. There were old forum threads from time to time whose topics were generally "your first train," but these 2031 Alcos were not mentioned by anyone. They're on ebay, so I know they are out there. The 2031s don't even come up in forum discussions of the Rock Island railroad and the rolling stock.
Does anyone else besides me have this 2031 engine set? I don't think it was ever sold as part of a train set with cars, passenger or freight.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Regarding the pulling power, as you said when properly serviced they can do a decent job of pulling a moderate consist. Clean track, lubed cars of course. Selecting lighter cars. I never tried more than 12 cars, and some of them were superlights from a starter set.
Jim A. (Jumijo) provided this link (below) a while back in the forum. The poster of the video makes no mention of any modifications, but there has to be a second motor mounted in there, perhaps the dummy is now powered too. The car count on one of the videos is 15 and 21-22 on another.
The youtube poster of the video is BoxcarFrank, so if you want to see two more videos of the 21 car consist, just click on "more from." Then do a search of his available videos, type in Rock Island 2031. You'll get a good look at the Chicagoland Lionel Railroad Club layout.
I picked up a pair of Rock Island Alcos a couple years ago and they are my favorite amongst all the early Alcos. I felt fortunate to find a pair with origional red paint at a reasonable price. There is nothing rare about them and they show up occasionally at shows and on ebay. But, not as frequently as UP and Erie. They are coveted more than anything due to their sharp graphics. Most of the grey nose UP Alcos floating around are fakes. Despite the cheapy stamped frame and motor, my favorite of all the Alcos is the blue Santa-Fe freight scheme.
Rock Island and the New Haven Alcos had beautiful graphics. The blue Santa Fes are beauties also. The B&Ms - yuck! We have a set of silver 2023s.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Jumijo wrote: Rock Island and the New Haven Alcos had beautiful graphics. The blue Santa Fes are beauties also. The B&Ms - yuck! We have a set of silver 2023s.Jim
I don't agree on B&M's I always liked the black and blue
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
I have been doing some searching on the net for some background info. on these Rock Island ALCo deisels. A lot of guys on this forum seem to know quite a bit of toy train and heritage on their steamers, so I thought I'd try to do some research on my ALCos.
The 2031 is a reproduction of the ALCo FA-1, the real deal manufactured from 1946 to 1950. They were manufactured with engine designation 244 which came as either a 1500 hp 12 cylinder or a 2200 hp 16 cylinder. They were used in both a freight and passenger capacity. And they were produced for a number of different RR lines.
Lionel produced the Rock Island 2031s from 1952-1954. The 2031 shell details are fairly faithful to the real loco's physical detail; some guys have posted detailed FA-1 sketches in various places on the web.
Color and paint schemes for the Rock Island are another story. The Lionel 2031, 2041, and 231 all have essentially the same red stripe over black color and paint scheme, same with the Williams repro. But when I search for the real Rock Island engines from which they are derived, I can't find a match. The RI FA-1 colors are maroon stripes over black. And the paint scheme is arranged differently. Is this a case where Lionel went their own way with color and paint scheme? Why would they bother?
Second, ALCo FA-1s are shown in real life as AA arrangements or with a B unit. Lionel did not offer a B unit for the Rock Island, Union Pacific, or Erie FA-1 variations between 1950 and 1954. Was not offering a B unit for the FA-1 done for economic reasons? Lionel did offer B units for their F3 offerings, albeit some were separate catalogue items. B units were also offered FA-1 rereleases a few years later.
So I assume that if you wanted in at a lower price, an FA-1 was your choice with a single motor unit. It seems an F3 was your choice if you wanted a strong puller with dual motors and a B unit option at a higher price, though the SF F3 2333 from 1948 and 1949 was single motored. Price wise, the Rock Island 2031 FA-1 AA pair sold for about $38.95, but I don't know what the F3s were going for back then. What were the Lionel F3 AA or ABA sets going for when they were released?
That got me wondering why did Lionel release the F3 before the FA-1, the SF single motored 2333 for 1948-1949? It's like, "Lets produce one of the modern deisels, like the F3." And the FA-1 was an afterthought when they were trying to expand both product lines and price points. I don't know manufacturing quantities or how well any of these faired in the marketplace.
Any help here would be appreciated.
The F-units were bigger and sexier. The FT is the diesel that finally signalled the end of steam locomotives. When Lionel tooled up theirs, they conned GM and possibly the NYC into paying for some of that tooling.
The 2333 is a dual motored loco, sans Magnatraction.
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
Lionel's Rock Island scheme is fairly accurate. The attached link is for a Precision Craft HO model with the correct scheme that Lionel is close to. The most noticeable difference with the version I linked is Lionel used a white stripe along the bottom instead of red. Rock Island painted their FA's in a variety of schemes over the years. I've seen pics of the real deal but cannot recall where.
https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/588-267
If you study the link, you will see Lionel's FA's proportions are close in all directions except width maybe but they are scaled down for 027. The trucks Lionel used are an EMD design which were carried over from the NW switcher.
It's hard to say exactly why Lionel chose to do scale sized (1/48) F3's first. Before the war, hobbiests raved over Lionel's scale and semi scale Hudson, B-6 switcher, and freight cars. Lionel was proud of this line and it is likely they wanted to continue with it. EMD came out with F units (FT's) quite some time before Alco came out with their FA's. So it's only natural Lionel had F units on the drawing board first. Alco was nowhere near as popular as EMD because they were late getting diesels out. Alco had one over on EMD because they could rip some healthy ground shaking farts during start up and literally fumigated the right-o-way with black smoke.
As far as AA verses AB, paint scheme, and EMD trucks, Lionel was making toys. Not 2 rail O scale. Cost was an issue. They did come out with a B unit during the cheapened stamped frame era. Several stories have been published on Lionel's Alcos. TM's postwar book and the Sept 99 issue of CTT for example.
EMD (General Motors) was at that time (and for several more decades) far and away the biggest builder of diesels. The FT (introduced before WWII and then built through the war years) clearly demonstrated the capabilities of diesels for general freight service, and the F-3 was the improved successor that carried out the diesel revolution on American railroads. (In fact, by 1948, the F-3 had given way to the F-7 which was even more successful sales-wise.) So EMD was the premier diesel manufacturer, and it is no surprise that Lionel chose to go with their streamlined cab units when time came to offer a diesel model. GM, the Santa Fe, and the NYC each joined Lionel in financing the tooling for the new locomotive, 25 percent each.
Lionel generally tried to "spread the wealth" around (various roadnames, etc.) Alco was definitely second to EMD in diesels, and so after two EMD engines (the F-3 and the NW-2 switcher), they picked Alco's FA for their new 0-27 cab unit in 1950. As an 0-27 engine, they made it smaller (the prototype is just about the same size as the F-3), and they were also able to use the motor and trucks from the 622/6220 Santa Fe NW-2, which may have influenced the size of the model.
okiechoochoo wrote: I was not aware the 2333 SF and NYC F3s were single motored. Are you sure about that?
Okie, OOOPS......you're right. Both the SF 2333 F3 and NYC 2344 F3 were duals.
The SF 2243s (55-57) were single motored but came as an AB set, and both the NYC 2343 and NYC 2353s were dual motored. I thought there was one more postwar F3 from Lionel that was single motored, though.
John/3railguy, thanks for the reference material. I saw that HO site when I was searching and that is the closest in color and scheme I've seen to the 2031 (copied?) but nothing in real life photos.
Bob Nelson
I saw Marx Rock Island 99 diesels on the ChooChoo Trains auction site. I don't do a lot of train browsing outside of ebay, mostly out of ignorance and lack of familiarity with the other auction alternatives. The listing had the A unit as "very good" and the B unit as "good." The pics were not much help. The picture when blown up deteriorated quickly. The item description was equally poor.
I know nothing about this one or Marx trains in general. Does anyone have some experience with this engine set?
The Marx Rock Island 99 listed was made I believe in 1976 by Louis Marx & Co. which went bankrupt in 1978 (1919-1978) and got broken up. Continued under new ownership as K-Line and parent MDK.
The Marx Rock Island color scheme is very similar to and perhaps better than the Lionel 2031 from 1952-1954. From the ChooChoo picture, the Marx offering appears more detailed. Sizewise, the Marx looks longer than the earlier O27 Lionel offering.
The ChooChoo Auctions listing says AA units, the picture shows AB, and the description is for AB. While bumbling around on the internet briefly last night I read where the Marx AA was the set and the B unit was available.
The historical pictures on the net I have found show the real RI diesels from the latter part of the 1940s and 1950s in many configurations: A, AA, AB, ABA, and ABBA. Rock Island operated both in a freight and a passenger capacities.
I know nothing about Marx quality and parts availability under K-Line. While Marx trains had been around for a very long time, I find it curious there is not a lot of their stuff out there at auction unless folks list the stuff as K-Line.
I am originally from Chicago. It was my father who selected a more local railroad for my first train. In the toy trains hobby, I see others interested in relatively small, nearly regional railroads as well.
Those Marx RI diesels are beauties, Jack. You better act fast and snap them before I do!
All the Marx locos I have are quite easy to disassemble, clean and get running again. Elegant simplicity. The only rare Marx is the one that doesn't run.
jpc675 wrote:The all black Lionel RI Alco went for $750 the other day on the bay.
JPC.....I have never seen a Lionel 231 Rock Island Alco (1961-1963) in all black. NIB 231 wouldn't fetch $750. Repaint for $750? Doesn't sound right. Yet there were both live floor bidders and the ebay bidders who thought it was worth it. Hmmmmm.
Jim, my birthday is coming up...... Hint hint.
It looks like Hillside had part of a bin full of all-black 231's(no red stripe painted on). It is still debatable whether any completed ones left the factory, or if they were assembled outside.
My guess is they were assembled this way by Lionel as there is no glut of regular 231 shells that were excessed when the switch was made, and there have been many all-black units sold/traded with 231P boxes.
Rob
ADCX Rob wrote: It looks like Hillside had part of a bin full of all-black 231's(no red stripe painted on). It is still debatable whether any completed ones left the factory, or if they were assembled outside. My guess is they were assembled this way by Lionel as there is no glut of regular 231 shells that were excessed when the switch was made, and there have been many all-black units sold/traded with 231P boxes.Rob
Here's another one, but check out the ebay buy it now price: $1650 !
http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-231-ROCK-ISLAND-ALCO-WITH-NO-RED-STRIPE-LN-OB_W0QQitemZ170150469637QQihZ007QQcategoryZ4146QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem
I don't believe any of the earlier Lionel postwar ALCo FA diesels from Lionel were ever available with an unpowered B unit: #2023 (UP), #2031 (Rock Island), #2032 (Erie), and #2033 (UP). Is that right?
Some of the later Lionel ALCo FA diesels from the late 1950s and into the 1960s were released with B units: #217 (Boston and Maine), #218 (SF), #226 (Boston and Maine), and #229 (Minneapolis & St. Louis).
1.) Has anyone here seen how the later ALCo B units look along side one of the earlier AlCos sizewise? I don't think any of the B units' detail would match up.
2.) Has anyone here tried to repaint one of the B units to get a close match to one of the earlier ALCos?
3.) Has anyone attempted to power one of these B units?
Thanks for your help. Bet I'll be hearing from Brianel on this one since he's really up on this era of Lionel diesels and is a repainting maniac.
Jack, you are correct they never made the early alco with a B unit. Sure, with some work, you could power a later alco B unit, but it would be easier to use the later cheap motor truck instead of the good early motor and seperate truck. The two different combos might not run well together. I don't know that the detail is all that different, I suspect the original tool was modified for the later alco front skirt. Well, My two Alco sets have made it through another sell time period in tact.
Jack,
A good source for answers to many of the questions you have posed on this thread is: postwarlionel.com.
And to clear up any lingering confusion, both the 2343 (SF) and 2344 (NYC) F3s by Lionel were dual motored with Magnatraction...and they run beautifully. I'm currently pulling 25 cars with one of them with power to spare.
I like the looks of the early Alcos, but don't currently have any, perhaps because they seem somewhat undersized.
runtime
They are indeed undersized. The prototypes were very nearly the same size as F3s. Lionel's F3 models are almost perfectly to scale, while the Alcos are obviously smaller. But they do make a better match for the also-undersized 2400-series streamliners.
The postwar Lionel site can be very useful. But you have to take it with a grain of salt. It includes more than a few mistakes.
Ogauge (Dennis H) and 3rail (John L) have the 2031 RI postwar ALCos. Does anyone operate a pair of motorized postwar ALCo FA A units (2023, 2031, or 2032s) to crank up the pulling capacity and compete with the dual motored F3s?
Lionel 2031s in action
I've been thinking of picking up another pair of 2023 and 2031 AA to accomplish this if the bang is worth the buck and the condition is near what I have.
Jack, Yes same as Bob, I've run two powered 2031's and its much better than a single. Also used to run two powered single motor early 2245 Texas Specials and that was nice as well, of course with the 2245 F-3's it would be no big deal to add the second motor and powered truck!
Dennis and Bob.....in pulling power, how would you rank your dual motored powered ALCo A units vesus the postwar F3 dual motored power units?
I may scuttle the idea of securing a non-matching unpowered B unit like a New Haven 209, repainting the shell to the appropriate RI color scheme, and motorizing it. The NH B unit detail still would not match up to the RI AA pair.
I know the actual Rock Island ran F1 ALCos with B units. I have seen photos of A, AB, ABA, and ABBA combinations. And I suppose in real life a railroad didn't much care if the A and B engines matched up when additional power was needed.
The video link to Boxcar Frank on youtube shows what he describes as a 2031 powered unit and a 2041 dummy, but he makes no mention of perhaps dual motors in the powered A unit. The layout is the Chicagoland Lionel Railroad Club, and no grade is shown in the video. The cab lights in the engines are fairly bright, so I would assume a higher voltage used to pull that many freights.
The youtube videos show the postwar ALCos pulling 15 freight cars in one and 22 in another. Granted, the cars selected may be lighter than the 24XX series passenger cars. But based on my experience, I can't see a single motored ALCo doing that without at least some sort of tractive assist (tires?).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPIARnbkVLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhywesFtQtM
Bob, you mentioned pulling 12 of the 2400 series passenger cars, but you didn't say which ones. I have to go back to my inventory as all my stuff is packed away (no layout). But I believe I have 5 of the 242X and 3 of the 243X.
Jack, these are 1994 cars, 16068 through 16074, two sets less one combine and one observation.
I just coupled the two-motor 2023 and a 2383 for a tug-of-war. It was a draw. They sat in one spot, on O27 tubular track, with both locomotives' wheels slipping.
I think the early adopters of Diesel locomotives did worry about which units went where, often not paying the extra cost of couplers between units, to support their theory that multiple Diesel units were still one locomotive, not requiring a crew per unit. Santa Fe in particular made a point of running theirs in ABBA sets. The manufacturers co-operated with the railroads in this. The first paragraph in the operating manual for the F3 says,
"The F3 locomotive consists of one or more units rated at 1500 HP each....The 1500 HP locomotives are single 'A' units, the 3000 HP either 'AA' or 'AB' arrangement. The 4500 HP locomotives are 'ABA' or 'ABB' consist while the 6000 HP are 'ABBA' or 'ABBB' arrangement."
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month