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Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:36 PM

 billbarman,

I can sure give it a try.  If you want to post the number or a description of the car, or a picture if you have it, I can try to identify it further.  If you don't have a picture of the item I can try to post one from my collection if I happen to have it, or I can try to find a picture of it.  It may take me a while to do some research and figure out what the item is.  Someone else might be able to identify it if I can't.

Northwoods Flyer

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:14 AM

PreWar Enamel Box Cars

Flyer's production of these cars illustrates their willingness to carry a theme throughout the Wide and Narrow Gauge lines. They used a similiar design and color scheme for both lines on their box cars.

Here is the 4018 Wide Gauge Box car known as the Automobile car.

 the 3208 Narrow Gauge  9 1/2" Box Car

and the 3015 Narrow Gauge 6 1/2" box car.

There are a number of variations of each of these cars, but I wanted to show the similarities between the lines. 

All of my collection is made up of 8 wheel cars, however Flyer did produce some versions in the Narrow Gauge line that were 4 wheel cars.

Northwood Flyer

 

 

 

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Posted by geeppe on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:49 PM
 Northwoods Flyer wrote:

Thank you for all the kind comments about the thread.  I started it because I enjoy American Flyer trains, and I look for any opportunity to read about them or see examples.  In my opinion part of the enjoyment of collecting anything is to be able to share the collection, the information about the items, and the stories of how I aquired them.

Good evening Northwoods Flyer, and everyone.  Have just discovered this thread, and am slowly reading all 13 pages (so far!).  What a wonderful thread - there is probably more pre war Flyer information here than has been seen in one place since Greenberg published their guides 20 or more years ago.

My own interets are mainly tinplate, which means mainly pre war, from Britain, Europe and, of course, the US.  My Flyer collection is modest, 0 gauge only, with a few locos and freight cars, plus a very few passenger cars. I do enjoy running Flyer, although do find some of the mechanisms to be a little idiosyncratic.  I'm slowly learning!

 

 

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Posted by sanvtoman on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:01 PM
Good collection! I used AF trains from 1968 to 75 or so but it got too costly. I think they went out of business in 66 or so. I used to get trains from a guy called Dan Olson. I once bought an "All Aboard" complete set at the Goodwill. It had the modular set up i called it.  A steam engine 2 freights cars and a cab.Anyway once again nice set!
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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:53 PM

Sign - Welcome [#welcome]  geeppe,

Its nice to hear from a fellow collector "across the pond".  Its an honor to have you join us in the forum and to have your first post be to this thread.  I hope that you do find some useful and entertaining information about tinplate here and American Flyer in particular.  You will find that there are many friendly folks who are willing to share their knowledge with you.  You will also find some interesting posts of tinplate in the Sunday postings.  I hope you will visit often and ask questions, or better yet post some pictures of the items in your collection.  I know very little about European trains, and I am always eager to learn.  What items of O gauge Flyer do you have, and do you have any idea how they found their way to Scotland?

AND

Sign - Welcome [#welcome] sanvtoman.

Its great to have you join us on the thread too.  I have a set of the All Aboard trains, mine is a 6 panel set, and a number of add on panels.  These came late in Gilbert Flyer production and were a pretty interesting product.  I've often thought that if they had been produced earlier they might have helped Flyer survive a little longer.  I think that one of our other members, Sturgeon-Phish has some of these panels and might be able to post some photos.  I'll try to locate my set and take a few pictures too.  (Jim, I think you really do need to start a Gilbert Flyer thread)

Thanks for contributing.

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Posted by sanvtoman on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 11:02 AM
I guess i was not clear I have  or had S-gauge flyer. I know they also had HO flyer in the 60s. I had about 150 pieces of flyer trains. I had UP geep also the GM Geep # 370 or 371 I think. The only problem with tinplate Flyer was the out of scale couplers. I hated the horn hook type of coupler as well. I sold most of my collection long ago. I still have a 980 series box car around in a box somewhere and a couple of early sixties catalogs also. I dont recall the whole history but i think Lionel bought Flyer then General Mills ceareal bought Lionel. Anyone know the story? I do recall a company called Cargraves that made track. And i still have copies of the S Gauge Herald from the 70s. This is a good forum I will look at others posts. Thank You for your nice response.
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Posted by skeptic49 on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:04 PM

Very interesting thread, Greg! There are lots of great photos and a lot of information.

I found this discussion while doing some online research on AF. I collect prewar trains including AF Standard gauge trains and accessories. Here's a layout photo of mine that features a couple of my favorite AF accessories, the 108 Switch Signal Tower, and "The Monument" roadside flashing "Danger" signal, plus some AF street almps. This switch tower is a little unusual in that there is only one chimney centered on the roof. Usually there are two.

Some of my most favorite tinplate trains were made by American Flyer. Thanks for a really interesting thread on AF!

Jim Kelly

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:54 PM

sanvtoman,

The Gilbert era of American Flyer has a charm and look all of its own.  If you search for entries on here by Sturgeon-Phish you will find some great pictures of his S-gauge American Flyer trains.  As far as the history of Flyer goes there is a fairly credible and short history of American Flyer on Wikipedia.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Flyer  This link should take you to the article.  It discusses the prewar Chicago era of Flyer, the Gilbert years, and 1979 to the present.  With the 980 series of cars you kept some of the most desireable cars for collectors.  I must have about 300 pieces of S gauge Flyer from 1946 to 1957 - or at least until they went from the 3 digit to 5 digit numbering system.  I made a decision in the effort to limit my collecting to not collect 5 digit items.  For now the S gauge Flyer is boxed up, and the focus of my collecting efforts has been on pre-war o gauge.  I'm hoping someone will start an S gauge thread soon.

Thanks for posting,

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 2:02 PM

skeptic49

Sign - Welcome [#welcome] to the forum and to the thread Jim,

It is an honor to have the publisher of Tinplate Times have his first post to the forums be to this thread.  I have visited the Tinplate Times site many times, and have had some wonderful evenings of reading there.  I've learned a great deal.  If any of you reading this have not visited Tinplate Times and you like tinplate and prewar trains of any manufacturer, it is a must see site.  Thanks for posting the picture with the 108 Switch Tower and the 2230/4230 Roadside Flashing Signal.  I don't own either of them yet - but I have the collector gene so I keep looking.  The Flashing signal is very difficult to find in original condition, the head rarely survives intact.

Thanks for posting, and don't be a stranger,

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Posted by sanvtoman on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 2:17 PM
Thank You Sir for the info I will read the article. I dont know if the S gaugian is still in business or not. On the 980 series I always knew they were desirable as were a couple of the 24000 series i think. I think the Bible used to be a book called Greenberg for AF values.
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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Thursday, June 26, 2008 7:54 AM

The Ambassador

For a number of years the top of the line passenger set appearing in Flyer Catalogs in Narrow Gauge was The Ambassador.

I was recently fortunate to snag a complete set on eBay, and believe me it is just as impressive in person as it is in the catalog illustrations.

 

In 1928 and 1929 it was headed up by the manual reverse 3117

In later catalog listings it had the remote-control reverse 3187.  Some 3187s come with the 3117 metal plates.

The consist is made up of the 11 inch passenger cars (cataloged from 1928 to 1935).

The 3380 Club Car

The 3381 Pullman

And the 3382 Observation

 

The pieces of this set all match as far as color, and type of trucks and air tanks, so I am faily confident that it is an original set and from 1928 or 1929.  I should look so good when I am 80 years old.  The wheels on the 3117 are swollen but it still runs, even if it does look like a drunken sailor going down the tracks. Someone replaced one of the couplers on the Club Car which I will get around to replacing at some point.

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Posted by RockIsland52 on Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:14 AM

Northwoods, it isn't common to find the older AF stuff complete and in this exceptional condition, is it?  Or are you finding the Prewar AF availability better and the pricing more reasonable in the past year or two?  Pretty find.

Jack

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:54 PM

RockIsland52

Jack,

I only get to about 3 train shows per year, and all of them are here in Wisconsin.  My hope is to one day get to York. I have not found much PreWar Flyer at these shows, although there is a smattering. The majority of my purchases come from eBay and I am only really familiar with what shows up on there.  It isn't common to find complete sets of PreWar Flyer, although some do show up, and some even come in their original boxes.  As you might expect those command premium prices.  Almost everthing that Flyer made in the PreWar era shows up at some point. One trend I have noticed is that when a particular piece shows up, and brings a good price, there will be a flurry of the same item showing up in the next few weeks.  It might just be the whim of the market, or it might be that people decide to part with an item when they see it for sale and bringing a good price.  I have also seen items be sold when a buyer upgrades. (I know who my main competitors are) Shopping on eBay has an art and science all its own.  One thing I have learned is that if I miss an item, there will always be another in a week or a month or a year.  These are afterall mass produced toys.

As far as price is concerned:  I haven't noticed a greater availablilty of Flyer, it really depends on the season.  More items show up as you get closer to Christmas, and now during the summer the amount tends to diminish.  I don't think the prices are more reasonable either.  It is all about what the bidders are willing to pay and the condition they are willing to accept.

The Ambassador is indeed a pretty set.  I only wish I knew the story of where it has been all of these years. 

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Posted by geeppe on Friday, June 27, 2008 3:39 PM
 Northwoods Flyer wrote:

Sign - Welcome [#welcome]  geeppe,

Its nice to hear from a fellow collector "across the pond".  Its an honor to have you join us in the forum and to have your first post be to this thread.  I hope that you do find some useful and entertaining information about tinplate here and American Flyer in particular.  You will find that there are many friendly folks who are willing to share their knowledge with you.  You will also find some interesting posts of tinplate in the Sunday postings.  I hope you will visit often and ask questions, or better yet post some pictures of the items in your collection.  I know very little about European trains, and I am always eager to learn.  What items of O gauge Flyer do you have, and do you have any idea how they found their way to Scotland?

 

Thank you for the warm welcome :-)

My interests centre around 0 gauge tinplate in general, and US tinplate in particular, with a little British, European and others, as well.  Rather than add non Flyer to this thread, which has remained remarkably 'pure', I'll try to take a few photos of non US models, and start a new thread.

Regarding  Flyer in Scotland, I have never seen any pre war Flyer for sale here, and therefore rely on eBay.  The pound is strong against the dollar, but the postage hurts.  I have managed to accumulate various locos, including 401s, 1218 electric, 417/419, 9900 Zephyr and a couple of the 3/16ths locos, 545 and 559.  Perhaps twenty freight cars, and a few passenger cars.

I am more an operator than collector, so quite a lot of my collection could be described as operator condition, but I enjoy it anyway.  I'm happy to mix Flyer, Lionel and Marx and run whatever takes my fancy.  There are a few photos of a temporary public display here :

http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/layouts/vic07/index.html

Regards,

 

Graeme, Scotland TCA 04-57743
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Posted by mersenne6 on Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:50 PM

 

    The American Flyer Passenger Car I

    The First Cars

   American Flyer trains were manufactured by Edmonds-Metzel Mfr between 1907 and 1910.  The first Flyer passenger cars were made by this company and are generally referred to as the "Chicago" cars because of the word "Chicago" lithoed beneath the windows of the cars.  The very first cars were made in 1907 and were solid metal sided cars with lithoed windows and doors and had "Pullman" on the letterboard and "Chicago" underneath the windows.

  It is the window count that is typically used to describe these cars.  The first were 3 window litho and came in either blue and white or red and white litho.

 

 

   In 1908 there were two sizes of cars offered. The windows and doors were punched out.  The two types were three and four window cars.  The lithography was far more elaborate than 1907 and the cars came lithoed with a base color of white, red, brown, blue and light blue. The letterboard now read "American Flyer".

 

 

   In 1910 Flyer introduced five window, eight wheel passenger cars in  red and blue livery.  The litho was simplified from the earlier cars. The letterboard and labels under the windows were the same as before.

  

    Six and one half inch Passenger Cars

 

  1914-1916 Flyer introduced the #1103 passenger car with dark green lithographed body with yellow, red and black detail.  The side litho treatment had "1103 Parlor Car 1103" under the windows and the letterboard read "American Flyer Line". 

 

 

In 1917 Flyer changed #1103.  The letterboard read "American Flyer" and the lithography under the windows was that of a winged engine hearld.

 

 In addition to the Yellow with red, green, and white trim illustrated above these cars also came in:

1. Blue with red winged engine herald.

2. Green with red winged engine herald.

3. Red with a winged engine herald

  In the early 1920's the #1103 was offered in dark green litho with Oriental Limited/Great Northern markings on the letterboard.  This car is particularly interesting because of its attempt to adhere to the look of the prototype.  The real Oriental Limited cars had the same letterboard markings.  Of course, the real cars were 80 feet long so the distance between the words "Oriental Limited" and "Great Northern" was much larger than on the Flyer car.

 

 

  The #1104 baggage car was first offered in 1917.  The first version was a yellow car with a brown five panel door, a black roof, "American Flyer Line" on the letterboard, and a panel with a winged locomotive herald on either side with the words "Express Baggage" underneath the panel. 

  In the early 1920's #1104 changed to a three window baggage with the words "American Flyer Lines" in a panel on the left, the number 1104 on the bottom left, and "United States Mail Railway Post Office" on the lower right and the Great Northern goat herald in a panel on the far upper right.

 

 

   Side Note: About this time back in 2008 there was a problem with shrinking pictures.  These were corrected by reworking the posts.  The reason for noting this is because there are posts following this one which reference the problem (July 2021).

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Posted by mersenne6 on Sunday, June 29, 2008 12:45 PM

 

  The American Flyer Passenger Car II

   1105, 1106

   These cars were offered between 1914 and 1916.  In 1917 the litho changed to have the winged engine logo below the windows.  Also around 1916 Flyer began selling to the Canadian market.  The cars has "Dominion Flyer" on the letterboards and "Canadian National Railways" in a box under the windows or, in the case of the baggage in a box on the left side.

  Baggage

 

  Passenger

 

 1917 With Winged Engine Logo under the Windows

 

  In 1917 Flyer offered the 1106 with a UP herald under the windows.  The litho treatment for the lettering was either white or red.

 

 UP Hearld Car

  1200 Series

  Beginning in 1918 Flyer changed the litho treatment and offered the first of the 1200 series.  These cars had a lightning bolt on either side of the letterboard and   a circle with three lightning bolts under the windows. The cars came with either 4 or 8 wheels.  The car colors were red, green, brown, and blue.  The baggage car numbers were 1200 and 1202 while the cars were numbered 1201, 1203.

 

  1203 in blue

 

 

  1200 and 1201 - 4 wheel

 

   In 1923 the litho treatment and the numbering of the 1200 series changed.  The baggage was now 1205, the passenger car was 1206, and new for that year, an observation numbered 1207.  The cars came in red, green, blue, brown, orange, and dark green litho.  The first cars had the same style of stamped roof as the earlier cars but in 1924 another style of roof with more rounded corners was introduced.  Also in 1924 Flyer began offering 1200 series cars with railroad names on the letterboard.

  The Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul cars were the first. The baggage was offered with two styles of litho treatment and the passenger car carried the railroad name on the letterboard.  The observation, however, retained "American Flyer Lines" on the letterboard.

  common baggage litho treatment

 

 alternate style

 

 

 Passenger car

The cars also came with Pennsylvania and Oriental Limited markings.  The latter with a two tone litho treatment - the body a medium green and the letterboard a light green with "Great Northern Oriental Limited Great Northern" or just simply "Oriental Limited" in yellow on the letterboard.

Passenger Cars With No Number Identification

  Flyer made a series of cars without lithoed numbers in the same series of colors as listed above.   These cars were offered in a number of sets such as the Bluebird and the Prairie State.

  The later versions of these cars came with simplfied trucks and sold in uncataloged sets. 

  

  Another series of unnumbered cars are the orange cars which came with the 1932 Dictator Set as well as others. They have "American Flyer Lines" on the letterboard and either the name "Lexington" or "Paul Revere" under the windows.  It is easy to overlook the name under the windows and it is obvious that this was a problem in the factory too.  As a result it is common to find one of these passenger cars with mismatched sides - Lexington on one side and Paul Revere on the other.

 

  Lexington car from Dictator Set

   The five window litho gave way to enamel in 1933.  The cars can be found in red, green, or blue-gray.  Labels are either rubber stamps or decals.

 

  1122, 1123

  In the 1930's Flyer produced uncataloged litho passenger cars in either a red or a light blue.  The light blue cars carried " American Flyer Blue Streak" on the letterboards while the red cars said simply "American Flyer"

  Uncataloged Blue Streak Set

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Sunday, June 29, 2008 1:39 PM

Shrinking pictures

As mersenne6 has noted a large number of pictures have shrunk on this site.  I will be going back and reposting the pictures as I have the time. I apologize to those of you who are frustrated by the tiny pictures.  I have no clue as to why this has happened, there doesn't seem to be a pattern to the shrinkage.

Thanks for your patience.

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Posted by RockIsland52 on Tuesday, July 1, 2008 12:21 PM

Patience is a virtue; and while some of us have little virtue, we do have patience for you guys and this spectacular thread.  Thank you again.

Jack

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, July 2, 2008 12:53 AM

I spent some time this evening reposting the pictures that have shrunk.  I hope that solves the problem.  mersenne6 and I will be adding more pictures in the days ahead.  Thanks for stopping by and viewing.

 

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Posted by Cubster on Wednesday, July 2, 2008 4:54 PM

This thread absolutely rocks! I just arrived on a tip from another forum. There's enough photos and information to keep me entertained for a long time!  I collect prewar trains of all types, but I seem to be acquiring American Flyer more rapidly than any other brand. You folks have some stunning examples in your collections - thanks so much for sharing them! Big Smile [:D]

~ Chris

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Posted by RockIsland52 on Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:19 PM

Welcome Chris/Cubster,

As you can see, Northwoods and Mersenne each have a meager assortment of AF and an even more meager knowledge of the AF brand.  You are permitted to post here only after you have read all of the 260 posts and have closely examined all of the 2,748 pictures of their stuff.  There will be a quiz afterwards on your knowledge of the brochures they provided, 1911-1955.  Laugh [(-D] 

Jack

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Posted by mersenne6 on Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:56 PM

 

  Thanks for the compliment Chris.  This was just a maintenance and repair visit - as near as I can tell I've managed to replace all of the shrunken pictures - hopefully they will stay full sized for awhile but since nothing is certain I'd recommend copying whatever you are interested in keeping as a record to your computer ASAP - just in case.

 

                                      Mersenne6

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, July 2, 2008 9:28 PM

Sign - Welcome [#welcome]  to the forum and to this thread Chris. 

It is always great to have another collector who appreciates American Flyer join us. Please feel free to post some pictures of Flyer items in your collection.  As I have said earlier in the thread, once you start aquiring PreWar Flyer its hard to stop. By the Way, what site provided the tip for the forum?

 I have to admit that I enjoy going back and reading the entries and looking at the pictures that others have posted.  And ask questions when you have them. Oh and by the way there is no quiz at the end of your reading.Laugh [(-D]  We reserved the test for Jack.

Just so this isn't all words, here is a picture of a great lamp I'd like to find for my train room.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Thursday, July 3, 2008 12:06 PM

1200 Series Passenger Cars

Here are some examples of 1200 passenger cars from my collection to augment the examples that Mersenne6 posted back on page 13.  There are a few interesting variations to what he has shown.  My examples are not complete but they may help illustrate the variety in the lithography that Flyer used. Once again you could make a mini collection just out of these.

1205 Baggage Car

The brown version

Closeups of the lithography on both ends

The orange version - which is not the Milwaukee set

The orange version from the Milwaukee set (all of my examples from the Milwaukee set are from an original boxed set so I believe that they are original to the set)

The red version

The 1206 Passenger Car

The orange version - with the Seattle name under the windows

Note the American Flyer Lines name in the letter board

The orange version from the Milwaukee set

And the lithography from the letter board

The red version

Be aware that there is also an orange 1206  that is not from the Milwaukee set that is an observation. This one came as a set with the two other orange cars listed here.

I have read that there is a 1206 Observation lettered for the Milwaukee set with the "Seattle" name under the windows too.  The Greenburg guide asks for reader confirmation.  I have not seen one yet, but I believe that it exists because of the stories I have heard about it.

And a 1206 red Observation.

Obviously Flyer used the same lithographed sides for the passenger car and the observation, and just ran it through a different cutting die to make the observation.

1207 Observation

The orange version that came with my boxed Milwaukee set

Note that it is lithographed with 1207 at each end, "Chicago" beneath the window and

American Flyer Lines above the windows on the letter board.  I have not heard of a 1207 observation lettered for the Milwaukee set. If someone has a version like that let me know

The red version

Please post any other 1200 series cars that you may have. If I come across any other examples I will post them as well

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Some 1200s from Cubster
Posted by Cubster on Thursday, July 3, 2008 3:30 PM

First I'd like to offer pictures of my latest AF aquisition, and ask a couple questions about it. Another member on the OGR forum pointed me here in answer to my quest to identify the number for this loco. I understand this is a 3195X. The engine was repainted before I got it. The tender looks 100% original.

 

I need to replace the wheels and possibly axles (swelling and wobbles). Does this take the standard AF steam engine wheels, or is there something unusual about them? I'd also like to add the side rods: I'd be very grateful for a part number and/or a nice close-up of the original side rods.

I thought this would look good pulling my 1200 cars. I got the reds as a set. The blues were purchased individually. I believe the roofs on all of them have been repainted.





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Posted by mersenne6 on Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:27 PM

 

  Since that engine, in original finish, has the markings "3195X" rubber stamped under the cab overhang everyone I've ever known uses that designation to describe the engine.  As I mentioned in my post on this engine Greenberg refers to the two superstructures as the early and the late #3195 but as I also noted I think there is a possibility that Flyer might have been trying to offer a cosmetically altered version of #3195 (early) in addition to the early version in 1931. 

 As was noted over on the O gauge forum, Flyer went crazy when it came to numbering.  They had a number for the tender and a number for the engine and a number for the engine tender combination and you can go crazy trying to keep all of them straight particularly since the engine-tender combination number changed every time the tender for a particular engine changed. 

For example:

 3182 - Consists of the #3195X and a 3181 Type II tender

 3192 - Consists of a #3195 or a #3195X and a #3196 tender

 ?? - possibly 3182 or perhaps something else. Consists of a #3195X and a modified #119 Type 3 tender - Greenberg doesn't mention this but I've seen two boxed sets of the Red Bird with this combination and, until Greenberg published the revised book, I assumed this was the tender the catalog meant when it referred to a "lighter tender" - that is the #3181.

  You could call yours by one of the numbers above but you won't go wrong when it comes to communication if you just refer to the engine and tender types separately when describing what you have.

    No one makes accurate wheels for this engine, however, Trickel does make a replacement wheel for the Zephyr Part #AO17 which, according to his catalog, can be used with a #3195.  He also makes the side rods AOC2A and the hex screw AO81.

  His address is

   Eric Trickel

   541 North Charlotte St.

   Pottstown, Pa. 19464

  As for up close shots - here they are:

   Underside of Cab showing rubber stamped ID

  

 

 

  Close up of side rods - these are reproductions

  

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
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Posted by Cubster on Thursday, July 3, 2008 9:28 PM

mersenne6:

Well I must say I'm very disappointed that you were only able to come up with everything I asked for!  Big Smile [:D]  I sent an e-mail to Mr. Trickel requesting a catalog and the parts you identified.

I'm working my way back from the first post in this thread, learning an amazing amount of information.  I honestly feel someone should be getting paid for this: if you published just what's in this thread (text and photos), I'd certainly buy it!  I can't overemphasize what an invaluable resource this is. Thank you all so very much!

~ Chris Smell that. You smell that? Ozone, Son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of ozone in the morning.
  • Member since
    March 2004
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Posted by mersenne6 on Friday, July 4, 2008 9:18 AM

 

  Chris,

    Glad to be of help - next time I guess I'll just have to toss in some unasked for information so as not to disappoint. Smile [:)]

    As for publishing - both Northwoods and I have asked about this and every time the answer was - not enough interest to justify the effort (we don't know each other personally but we have kept up a side communication as this thread has evolved). 

  Frankly, prewar Flyer is fringe and I'm pretty sure it will always remain so.  Please understand this doesn't bother me in the least but as with all things fringe it means the resources (references, magazine articles, replacement parts, etc) that are part and parcel of mainstream interests will never be available. While the number of hits on this thread puts it in the top 3 in the Classic Toy Trains Forum (we are counting all the editions of the coffee pot thread as one topic) the fact is that when compared with hits on mainstream threads over on some of the other Kalmbach forums the count for this thread doesn't amount to sparrows tears. 

  I can't speak for Northwoods Flyer but I do know that for me it is a lot of fun to be able to post pictures and information in a place where interested people can see it.  As I said in an earlier post - most of what I have is nothing more than pictures I took as part of an effort to build a reference library for myself.  My only regret is that I quit taking pictures when the Greenberg references came out.  One of the many things I like about this venue is that the site allows me to go back and edit earlier posts.  Thus both Northwoods and I were able to fix the odd problem with the drop in picture resolution and, from time-to-time I've received information from others that I used to correct errors in some of the posts I've made.

  So, as I said before, if you want to hang onto some of the information in this thread copy it to your home computer and back it up so it won't disappear.

 

                              Mersenne6

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • 27 posts
Posted by Cubster on Friday, July 4, 2008 11:02 AM

mersenne6 and Northwoods,

Yes you have a niche market, but this sounds like a perfect situation for web/desktop publishing. I have the technical expertise and resources to accomplish everything that follows, and absolutely no interest in compensation for my services. I'm sure others here have equivalent or better skills. I would recommend one or more of the following approaches, which really involve very little or no cost. You have the option of providing the information as a public contribution, or charging a fee. For all options you should (of course) copyright your material.

The quickest option is to take each subject you have here (with the photos) as a separate article, and turn them into .pdf files. CTT already does this with their material. You can then charge a fee to download them, or make them publicly available on the web. You could also collect several articles together as one volume, and then add volumes - charging a higher fee. The beauty of this is you can use high-quality photography without cost: the purchaser has the option to print it if they desire, and can also control the cost of printing (quality).

Another public option would be a full web site. I can provide everything you'd need at no cost to you: hosting, web development, graphics, maintenance, etc. You could use a subdomain to my personal site, or I would be willing to contribute the purchase of a separate domain name (regardless of who built/maintained the site).

There is also the elegant option of contributing articles to Jim Kelly's "Tinplate Times", http://www.tinplatetimes.com.

I'd be very honored to help spread the wealth and depth of your knowledge to those who need it most (like me!). I see myself as an enabler: I don't have your knowledge, but I do have expertise I can contribute. Smile [:)]

If interested, you can contact me via e-mail (address is in my profile) for technical advice or references.

... and now, back to the trains!

~ Chris Smell that. You smell that? Ozone, Son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of ozone in the morning.
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • 913 posts
Posted by mersenne6 on Friday, July 4, 2008 2:57 PM

 

       That's a kind offer Chris and I appreciate it but I'd prefer to keep going as I am.

   So....as you said, back to the trains.

  

    American Flyer Passenger Cars III

 

    1107 and 1108 5 ½ Inch Cars

   The 1107 passenger cars (and their associate 1108 baggage cars) were first offered in 1914.  The cars, with changes in litho and frame styles stayed in the product line until the mid 1930's.

  The first cars were lithoed to resemble wood sheathed passenger cars.  The 1914 cars have "American Flyer Lines" on the letterboard, yellow lettering, and lithoed wood-sheathing in brown, green, or red.  Matching baggage cars have been recorded only for the brown and the green.  The baggage cars have "American Flyer Line" on the letterboard, "Express Service Baggage" on the side to the left of the door and "United States Mail" to the right.

Woodside litho Passenger Car

 

Woodside litho Baggage

 

 

 

In 1915 specific railroad names were added - Pennsylvania, Northwestern, and Union Pacific. There were baggage cars to match each of these road names.

 

Pennsylvania ca. 1915

 

 Northwestern Passenger ca. 1915

 

 Matching Northwestern Baggage

 

  Flyer also offered cars to the Canadian market with the letterboard carrying "Imperial Limited Line" and C.P.R. below the windows.  This gave way to "Dominion Flyer" on the letterboard and "Canadian National Railways" under the windows.

  Around 1916 the litho treatment changed from wood sheathing to steel sides. 

Steel sided litho passenger car ca. 1916

 

Steel sided litho baggage car - the baggage cars came with and without doors.

 

In 1917 Flyer trademarked the Winged Engine herald and began using it on various cars.  This emblem - below the windows - remained until the late 1920's.

  Like the wood sheathed cars the steel sided cars were also manufactured with railroad heralds - B&O, Erie, Pennsylvania, Northwestern, Santa Fe, NYC, Continental Flyer Line, Dominion Flyer (Canadian National, and Canadian Pacific), and Jefferson - this a car name under the windows.

  The cars came in a wide variety of litho treatments (car side color, trim color, lettering/number color).  The basic litho treatments for the steel sided cars were as follows:

  1. Cars with "American Flyer Line" on letterboard- ca. 1916-1917 (as above)

  2. Cars with "American Flyer" on letterboard and Winged Engine Herald under the windows. - ca 1917-27

 

 

 Orange Litho

 

Green Litho 

  

3. Cars with "American Flyer" on letterboard - no engine herald. 1922-27

4. Cars with "American Flyer Lines" (note the "s" on line as opposed to #1 above)  on letterboard 1928-34  - This series introduced an observation car to the Flyer line up for the 1107 series.

 

 

and...

5. Cars with no name on the letterboard

 

#1108 No Name (no nothing actually Smile )Baggage

   

A Herald Car and its Associated Baggage

 Steel sided Litho - Pennsylvania

 

 

 Some Herald Cars

B&O

 

Canadian National - Note the Dominion Flyer on the letterboard

 

 

New York Central

 

 

 

Erie

 

  Over time there were changes in the frame style and coupler type. The earliest frames are those of the wood sheathed litho cars.  These are designated Type III by Greenberg and were in use from 1914-1924. These were followed by the Type IV frames like that on the green #1107.  The rounded part at either end of the frame have "A" and "F" embossed in the center.  These were made from 1921-1925.  The last frames, Type V, were made from 1925-1933 and were embossed to give the impression of end steps and an air tank in the center.  The passenger car with no name on the letterboard has this style of frame.

 

....And A Stranger

 

  Cars with the words "Overland Flyer" on the letterboard look like American Flyer cars and they are often advertised as such, however, they are Hafner.

 

   I hope everyone has a happy and safe 4th of July.

                 Mersenne6

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