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Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Thursday, May 28, 2020 9:19 AM

JonEddy

Hey Northwoods do you have any catalog pages for the 1680 Hudson with the set options? 

   Thanks for any info.

           Jon

Hi Jon,

As you know the Hudson (Type XII engine) was cataloged from 1936 to  1939. The catalogs from 1937 to 1939 are posted online in their entirety.  If you Google American Flyer catalog 1937 you will see this entry.

Search Results

Web results

American Flyer Trains 1937, page 6 | AC Gilbert Catalog Archive

I believe that all of the Prewar Gilbert catalogs are posted there.  You will get a good idea of the sets that the Hudson headed up.

I can probably post some photos from the 1936 catalog. Is there a particular set you are looking for?

The passenger sets are my favorites.

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Posted by JonEddy on Thursday, May 28, 2020 3:04 PM

Northwoods Flyer
Hi Jon,

As you know the Hudson (Type XII engine) was cataloged from 1936 to  1939. The catalogs from 1937 to 1939 are posted online in their entirety.  If you Google American Flyer catalog 1937 you will see this entry.

Search Results

Web results

American Flyer Trains 1937, page 6 | AC Gilbert Catalog Archive

I believe that all of the Prewar Gilbert catalogs are posted there.  You will get a good idea of the sets that the Hudson headed up.

I can probably post some photos from the 1936 catalog. Is there a particular set you are looking for?

The passenger sets are my favorites.

 

Hi Northwoods,
    The set I got was a freight set, or at least when I bought it it had a freight set with the tender and engine. Thanks for the info, I'll see what i can find in the online catalogs.
 
    Thanks,
        Jon
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Posted by JonEddy on Friday, May 29, 2020 5:49 PM

Did the 1936 version with the whistling tender come in a freight set or passenger set only or both? I tried testing the whistle with my transformer on a wheel and the forked trip and it hummed. Does it use the same brushes as other O-gauge motors?

    Jon

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Monday, June 1, 2020 4:31 PM

Narrow Gauge

The Oriental

Set #1337   1928 -1929

3112 Medium Boxcab

Notice the doors on the baggage car

A previous owner installed some opaque material in the windows on the coach and the observation.

I like the looks of the window material

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Monday, June 1, 2020 6:44 PM

JonEddy

Did the 1936 version with the whistling tender come in a freight set or passenger set only or both? I tried testing the whistle with my transformer on a wheel and the forked trip and it hummed. Does it use the same brushes as other O-gauge motors?

    Jon

 

It came with both a freight set and a passenger set.  Yes the motor uses the same brushes as the engines.  Check the whistle motor gear, I believe it used a fiber gear and they go bad sometimes.

 

NWL

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Tuesday, June 2, 2020 11:21 AM

Jon,

Here are the sets headed up by the Hudson from the 1936 catalog.

What cars did you get with the Hudson?

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Posted by JonEddy on Tuesday, June 2, 2020 5:57 PM

Northwoods Flyer

Jon,

What cars did you get with the Hudson?

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Northwoods Flyer

 

I got the whole freight set, I just wasn't sure if I had the right cars with it because I got a couple of freight car sets with the same style of couplers. The only difference was the style of truck and color variation. I thought the tanker car(last pic) was from this set but it has a different style truck than the others.
 
 
 
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Posted by Nationwidelines on Tuesday, June 2, 2020 6:51 PM

JonEddy,

The tank car in the last picture looks to be from 1930 and is much earlier than the rest of your set.

NWL

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Posted by JonEddy on Tuesday, June 2, 2020 7:29 PM

Nationwidelines

JonEddy,

The tank car in the last picture looks to be from 1930 and is much earlier than the rest of your set.

NWL

 

Thanks, for confirming that one was older. It looks like a previous owner may have touched up the base of that tank too. I tried testing the tender like you suggested, the motor turns but not very fast. I'm going to take a look at the brushes and clean it up and see if it helps. I'll also take a look at the gear.

     Jon

   Jon

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Posted by JonEddy on Tuesday, June 2, 2020 10:30 PM

Nationwidelines

It came with both a freight set and a passenger set.  Yes the motor uses the same brushes as the engines.  Check the whistle motor gear, I believe it used a fiber gear and they go bad sometimes.

NWL

Well I guess the whistle motor went out. I did try changing the brushes and either I caused a short in the motor armature or it was just giving its last couple of turns when I tried it earlier. If I can get that fixed it does look like the fiber gear is going out on it too. A couple of the gear teeth are worn down. Does anyone know if they make replacements or is it the idler gear for an Ogauge Engine, if so where? I didn't see them on Hennings or Train Tender's sitesSad 

       Jon

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Wednesday, June 3, 2020 7:11 AM

JonEddy

 

Well I guess the whistle motor went out. I did try changing the brushes and either I caused a short in the motor armature or it was just giving its last couple of turns when I tried it earlier. If I can get that fixed it does look like the fiber gear is going out on it too. A couple of the gear teeth are worn down. Does anyone know if they make replacements or is it the idler gear for an Ogauge Engine, if so where? I didn't see them on Hennings or Train Tender's sitesSad 

 

       Jon

 

I don't know of anyone who has reproduced the fiber gear for the whistles.  

NWL

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Posted by overlandflyer on Tuesday, June 23, 2020 7:50 PM

i recently picked up two Am Flyer, Type V clockwork locomotives.  both have early clockwork motors (pre 1917, 6-spoke wheels) and both motors have right side SQUARE key posts.  they bear little resemblence to the other pre-1917 motors i know of found in early Flyer Type I locomotives.

anyone care to weigh in on this motor?

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Tuesday, June 23, 2020 8:06 PM

Post some photos.

It sounds like you are referring to the #15 locomotive from either 1914 or 1915.  I believe those motors were manufactured by Ansonia for American Flyer, which is why the key was on the other side and why it looks different.  

 

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Posted by overlandflyer on Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:24 PM

yes, the No. 15 locomotives... here are both motors.

ever seen a key?  luckily it seems to be a fairly standard size.  a Marx key i have works.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Wednesday, June 24, 2020 5:31 AM

overlandflyer

yes, the No. 15 locomotives... here are both motors.

ever seen a key?  luckily it seems to be a fairly standard size.  a Marx key i have works.

 

The 1 with the red wheels is from 1914 and the one with the black wheels is from 1915.

If you look at the wheels, you will find they are cast iron wheels that have been machined.  

They are relatively rare motors, simply because production numbers were lower in that era and because of the passage of time.  

You have the castings?

 

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Posted by overlandflyer on Wednesday, June 24, 2020 8:10 AM

here are the three locomotives i have.  i am suspicious that the 6-spoke red wheel motor may be in a later (roof vent) casting, but the other two look legitimate.  Schuweiler lists the ventilator roof casting as appearing with 10-spoke wheels, but i tend to believe there may have been some overlap with the 8-spoke wheel motors into the late casting.  it does have the more conventional, later Flyer motor design.

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Wednesday, June 24, 2020 1:16 PM

I would guess you are correct in that the red wheel version has a later cab on it.  I say this simply because the red wheel version is identified as being from 1914, which is the earliest year of this locomotive.  There would be no overlap in the first year of production to a later design that came out a number of years later.

NWL

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Posted by bearestir on Tuesday, July 7, 2020 6:06 PM

Is this a 1928 or 29 "Oriental Limited" set?   The extra locomotive box is apparently tied to some paper found in the set box where the owner ordered an AF locomotive from Ward's in 1930.    The locomotive was not in the box (unfortunately). 

 

AF Set 1337

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Tuesday, July 7, 2020 8:07 PM

Yes, that would be a 1928 or 1929 Oriental set.  There is an extra coach with your set, as it normally would have come with the engine, a baggage, coach, and observation.  

NWL

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Posted by JonEddy on Thursday, July 9, 2020 8:09 AM

How many different versions of Hudson tenders did American Flyer have? I know there was also a green striped version and the whistling tender version too. I already have the whistling tender version that came with my Hudson. I found these two recently in a box of tenders I bought. In another box from the same purchase I also found this set of chrome streamliners that came in a set with the Hudson in 38-39. Can anyone tell me if either of these tenders are correct for the passenger set? I think it is a 321 Passenger set from 1938, does that sound right?

     Thanks,

         Jon

 

 

 

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Posted by JonEddy on Saturday, July 11, 2020 6:50 AM

I think I found the set for this, in another box I found what was left of this 4322-4 engine. Could this be the no 315 passenger set? I know the gilbert catalog shows it was available with the blue streamline cars instead of chrome, but was the chrome also an option?

     Jon

 

 

 

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Wednesday, July 15, 2020 8:45 PM

JonEddy

How many different versions of Hudson tenders did American Flyer have? I know there was also a green striped version and the whistling tender version too. I already have the whistling tender version that came with my Hudson. I found these two recently in a box of tenders I bought. In another box from the same purchase I also found this set of chrome streamliners that came in a set with the Hudson in 38-39. Can anyone tell me if either of these tenders are correct for the passenger set? I think it is a 321 Passenger set from 1938, does that sound right?

     Thanks,

         Jon

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the late response, but I have been unable to login for several days.

The chrome cars came in 2 different sets, a 4 car set with the 1680 Hudson in 1938 and a 3 car set with the 447 Hudson in 1939.

Of the 2 tenders you have, the one in poor condition would have came with a 447 Hudson in 1939, but it would not go with your chrome cars as it has a freight coupler on it.  The other tender is restored with an incorrect decal on it.  

The correct style tenders for the Hudsons are

The sheetmetal streamline tender with whistle in 1936 only, the cast aluminum tender with green stripe American Flyer Lines decal in 1937 only, the cast aluminum tender with a white American Flyer Lines lettered decal on a clear background in 1938 only, and the cast aluminum tender with silver rubberstamped American Flyer Lines lettering in 1939 only.

See this link for a description and photos

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/american-flyer-prewar-hudson-variations-1680-447

NWL

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Wednesday, July 15, 2020 8:49 PM

JonEddy

I think I found the set for this, in another box I found what was left of this 4322-4 engine. Could this be the no 315 passenger set? I know the gilbert catalog shows it was available with the blue streamline cars instead of chrome, but was the chrome also an option?

     Jon

 

 

 

 

The chrome cars with that engine was not a standard option; however, there could be a possibility of an uncataloged set.

Or there is a possibility that it may have been a 1940 set, as there was a 1940 set cataloged with the 435 engine and 3 streamline cars, with no color specified.  It appears that the 1940 set used differing colors of cars to use up leftover stock.  A well-known 1940 set includes the yellow Union Pacific type cars with belly pans removed and 6 wheel streamline trucks installed.  

NWL

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Posted by JonEddy on Thursday, July 16, 2020 9:26 AM

Nationwidelines
The chrome cars with that engine was not a standard option; however, there could be a possibility of an uncataloged set. Or there is a possibility that it may have been a 1940 set, as there was a 1940 set cataloged with the 435 engine and 3 streamline cars, with no color specified.  It appears that the 1940 set used differing colors of cars to use up leftover stock.  A well-known 1940 set includes the yellow Union Pacific type cars with belly pans removed and 6 wheel streamline trucks installed.   NWL

Thanks for the info!

    Jon

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Posted by JonEddy on Thursday, July 16, 2020 9:28 AM

Nationwidelines
Of the 2 tenders you have, the one in poor condition would have came with a 447 Hudson in 1939, but it would not go with your chrome cars as it has a freight coupler on it.  The other tender is restored with an incorrect decal on it

What type of coupler would have come with the tender on the passenger set?

    Thanks,

         Jon

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Posted by Nationwidelines on Thursday, July 16, 2020 11:50 AM

JonEddy

 

 
Nationwidelines
Of the 2 tenders you have, the one in poor condition would have came with a 447 Hudson in 1939, but it would not go with your chrome cars as it has a freight coupler on it.  The other tender is restored with an incorrect decal on it

 

What type of coupler would have come with the tender on the passenger set?

 

    Thanks,

         Jon

 

 

A simple hook coupler similar to the couplers used prior to 1938.  When Gilbert took over, he changed the coupler styles, but the new couplers did not work with the streamline cars, so the tenders for the streamline cars retained the hook couplers.  The cast aluminum tenders contined to have the coupler pointed down, but the semi-scale tenders that came with the 432 and 435 engines had to have their couplers pointed upward, because the tenders sat lower than the cars.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Monday, August 24, 2020 2:59 PM

Wide Gauge 4021 Caboose

"Sold as Shopworn"

This is a caboose that I recently acquired. I have several of them, this one however had the occasionally seen "Sold as Shopworn" stamp. 

There is an interesting discussion currently on another site that is focusing on the origins of the stamp.

 In the July 1982 TCQ (pp 28-30) Joseph Kotil cited paperwork from Chicago Flyer which were Coleman's instructions for disposing of old or discontinued items.  On page 3 of the memo cited/illustrated in Kotil's article Coleman indicates the remaining old style #1096 engines are to be sold at the store.  From the article "The store he refers to was a retail outlet in the Flyer building at 22nd and Halsted in Chicago which was open during the Christmas season.  Obsolete items, as well as returned, repaired, and sample items were sold at the store, some stamped "Sold as Shopworn" to eliminate complaints of appearance irregularities."

NationWide Lines did some research and discovered additional interesting information.  He quotes from a copy of "The Collector", the publication of the now defunct American Flyer Collectors Club.  

Since my memory of the Maury Romer interview was not so good, I scanned through my "Collector" magazines and this is what Maury related to Ed Bernard DDS in a taped interview and was later transcribed, on Page 7, Volume 13, Issue 2, Summer of 1990

"The Company Store"

On the first floor of the plant, we had the Company Store, where a lot of shopworn merchandise was sold.  Some was just dusty, some finger-printed and handled, some was obsolete merchandise  We would get all of these items and lay them out on the second floor where orders were assembled for packing, segregating the locomotives, freight cars and passenger cars.  Guy Schumacher would make these up into train sets.  We would take a certain locomotive, say we had 12, use them as a basis and start with whatever cars we could to make up sets: substituting where we had to until we had 12 sets of passenger or freight cars to go with these locomotives.  We would call that set "Number One" and then we would take the next group of locomotives and build set two, set three, etc.  We would list the basic components of the set.  If it was a four car set, they all had four carss but it did not necessarily mean that all of the cars were the same in each set.  One set might have two or three box cars and the next one might have none.  It was just to get rid of the merchandise.  

The stuff was then sent down to the Company Store.  One set of each kind was put on display and it was assumed that the rest were just like it.  So if someone said give me one of "Number One", you would reach under the counter and get one.  These were at very low prices, real bargains.  Of course some of them had scratches, some dents; maybe part of a pilot was broken off or missing.  After making up a lot of these sets and sending them to the Company Store, I was called downstairs a day or two later to see a man who had brought a train to the front door for repair.  He said he had bought it at Goldblatt's Store and when he got it home, found it was broken.  He took it back to Goldblatt's and they said they didn't have any others but he could take it right down to American Flyer and they would fix it.  I took the train upstairs to the Service Department, unpacked it to see what was wrong and I couldn't help but notice that this was a train that we had packed for the Company Store just a few days before.  There was some telltale mark on it that I recognized  I went down and questioned the fellow again and he insisted that's how he got it so we didn't argue any further; we repaired or replaced whatever was wrong and gave him his train.

I went up to Schumacher and explained to him just what had happened and assured him that this particular train was one we had sold at the Company Store.  Right then and there a decision was made that every train sold in the Company Store from then on would be marked.  Schumacher sent out and had handstamps made which said something to the effect that "this item was sold as shopworn merchandise."

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Posted by pennytrains on Monday, August 24, 2020 6:52 PM

And now I've had a good day, because I learned something!  Big Smile  Thanks!

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Monday, August 24, 2020 7:23 PM

You are welcome.  I'm glad that the post contributed to a good day.  Big Smile

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:30 AM

The 6 Million Happy Owners tag on this caboose was unfamiliar to me.

I asked about the unfamiliar tag on the other forum where I had posted photos of the caboose and its Sold as Shopworn marking.  Rob English replied with the following information:

"There are 4 different 6 million plates... Orange background around dark blue shield was used on 4011 Buff/ Yellow cabooses and 4008 Orange / oxide red roofed cars only.  Distinctly different plate design.  Next is the Orange background, black shield smaller "million" plates on 1927 cars. There is now an aluminum outline on the shield. It had a reddish orange background, black shield and Aluminum letters, and plate outline. The third plate has the same color scheme, but had larger "Million" lettering and the "million" was in a serif font. The shield was widened to accommodate the bigger word. In 1928 the 7 Million plate appeared with a fancier shield design, and a sans-serif (except for the 7) font. The 8 Million plate was a return to the middle 6 million plate design, with changed number and reversed color scheme. This happened about 1930. There were 6 million plates on the latest cars (different shades of colors Like pale orange, rich 2017 green, etc.) were like the 8 million plate design, albeit with a 6 and on the black background, reddish orange shield.This plate was likely around 1932, a year before they pulled the plug on SG production."

Thanks Rob

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