Northwoods Flyer
Northwoods,
The car you illustrate is from the second, 1937 train. The shape of the original clerestory can just be made out in this photo.
I didn't know that car had been preserved.
The original train had a more rounded observation:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZavmIIRE95QC&pg=RA1-PT69&lpg=RA1-PT69&dq=B%26O+Royal+Blue+Train&source=bl&ots=DgghsfbfS-&sig=jVItuWHHXdPtjTsy6BUqWSprBuI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9UquT9aoEcShiQePt7GJCQ&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=B%26O%20Royal%20Blue%20Train&f=false
The link should be to page 101 of "The American Passenger Train".
The upper photo shows the former 1934 Royal Blue operating on the GM&O as the "Ann Rutledge". One of these two observation cars is in the National Railroad Museum in St Louis.
If you imagine this train in overall Royal Blue colour, that was the original streamlined "Royal Blue", which I think looks a lot like the Flyer models, apart from the windows.
The lower photo at the link shows the windows of the 1937 train, which are indeed in pairs.
M636C
The photo definitely helps me figure out the placement. Thanks Gary.
I recently bought an AF 3116. I wondered which locomotive the 3116 was modeled after, and think it might be the GE EP2. It looks pretty close, but I don't have any documentation that is the case. Anyone have more information or insight?
A 3116 in CM&SP colors might look good.
I don't think tyhat there can be any doubt that the American Flyer 3116 is indeed based on the Milwaukee Road class EP-2 locomotive. The distinctive arched hoods were not used on any other major electric locomotive, and the arrangement of windows and doors in the cab section and the deep grooves representing the articulation of the centre section leave little doubt as to the intended prototype.
However, a two axle model of a locomotive with twelve driven axles and two trailing axles is an all time high in selective compression...
I don't have details of these locomotives except those provided in Jim Scribbins' excellent "Hiawatha Story" which states that 5 units, numbered E1 to E5 were built in 1919-1920. It has some nice B&W photos of these units.
These were known as "Bipolars" since the motors were rigidly attached to the axles and two field poles were fixed to the locomotive frame. While simple, the large magnetic gaps made these motors relatively inefficient, hence the need for twelve motors producing just 3180 continuous HP.
Thanks for the information M636C.
Yep, a lot of imagination required with the "selective compression" of the wheels.
Thanks also for the mention of the book. I'll check it out. For me, the Milwaukee is a fascinating railroad.
Craig
Craig,
You picked up a nice example of the #3116. Its a bit scary, but I think you and I might be bidding on the same auctions. I already have a #3116 but finding one in a nice box with the original tape is a real bonus. Now all you need to do is find the matching cars and you will have:
The Potomac
The #3116 was cataloged in 1928 and 1929 and then again in 1931. In the first two years it was paired with the 3180 series of cars in a set called The Potomac. It was also available for seperate sale. The #3116 is a center cab locomotive and is referred to as a St.Paul Style by Flyer, which gives further evidence that it is modeled after the Milwaukee Road's Bipolars.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
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American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Northwoods Flyer Schuweiler mentions in his book that there is a factory prototype of a passenger set in Milwaukee Road colors that exists in a private collection. It uses a #3020 locomotive and 2 - 9 1/2 inch cars. I agree that a set in Milwaukee Road colors would have been spectacular. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Schuweiler mentions in his book that there is a factory prototype of a passenger set in Milwaukee Road colors that exists in a private collection. It uses a #3020 locomotive and 2 - 9 1/2 inch cars. I agree that a set in Milwaukee Road colors would have been spectacular.
The set that Alan mentions in his book is quite spectacular as I have seen it in person. It does not use a 3020, but rather uses a 3020 frame on which a machined brass bi-polar cab rests. The engine cab is unpainted. The cars are common Illini / Columbia cars (a baggage and a coach) that have been hand painted in the Milwaukee Road colors. Specifically the cars feature orange bodies and frames with a red stripe along the top of the car and red painted doors and window frames at either end of the passenger coach. The cars also have a red painted roof. Both cars are hand lettered "Chicago, Milwaukee, & St. Paul" across the top and the baggage is lettered "US Mail - 1801 - Express" and the coach is lettered "Butte"
NWL
Alas, Northwoods, the photo of the 3116 I used is not mine - it is originally from the internet, not sure where. I used it because it was a better example than the ones I have.
Here are mine:
One is in pretty good shape, missing only a pantograph; the other is in need of re-wheeling, lights, etc. You can also see that I doubt we are bidding against each other, as I tend to buy "less than collector quality" items. I am considering repainting one of them in Milwaukee Colors along with a set of 8" lighted wide body cars that are currently all red,
I'm sorry if using the "internet" photo caused any confusion.
I passed on a Potomac passenger car set at a reasonable price a few months ago. Dumb.
I would love to see pictures of the factory Milwaukee Road set you and NWL are talking about.
On a completely different subject. I am looking to re-wheel a steamer (I think a 401). It appears though, as if the wheels are unique in having the square boss for the outer valve gear. Here are a couple photos to illustrate.
You can also see that rather than a press on gear like the electrics, these wheels have a gear as part of the wheel (I think).
I contacted TTRP, who informed me that their replacement wheels did not have the square boss. Any ideas where I could find replacements? Actually the drive wheels with the valve gear connection are usable, so I just may need two other wheels of similar appeaance.
The examples that you have of the 3116 actually look to be pretty nice. Most of these toys are closing in on the 80 year mark and have seen a lot of life and been loved as playthings. Not many of the items in my collection are collector quality. I have purchased the best example that I could afford and frequently the quality is not excellent by any stretch of the imagination. I bet your better example will clean up nicely, and I look forward to seeing what a 3116 looks like in Milwaukee colors.
I am not much help when it comes to finding parts. I haven't moved into that aspect of the hobby yet. I bet that when Nationwide Lines reads your post he will have some suggestions of sources for the wheels.
The Milwaukee Road has several iconic engines. The Hiawatha of course always jumps to mind, but for those of us who are fascinated by anything Milwaukee Road the BiPolars are another example. Even the Milwaukee Road understood this and used the images of their engines to their best advantage. Here is a paperweight immortalizing the BiPolar.
Unfortunately, I cannot provide a source of parts for this item. You may try Eric Trickel of Trickel Cast Parts. I believe that he has made similar wheels that have a steel gear mounted to the back of them.
Personally, I have been buying used motors and scavenging them for this type of wheel (wheels with open spokes and cast gears). The wheel you have looks like a spoked wheel with open spokes, which would be for an early type XX motor that shared the same cab as the 401. The wheels like you show were used on several engines, but they did not always have the square boss on them. I know that later type XX locomotives had simulates spokes, but no openings between the spokes.
Thanks for the information on the wheels.
That is a nice paperweight. The Bipolar is such an impressive and imposing engine. I would like to see what the cab was like inside. It looks almost like there is room for living quarters or something, but I doubt that. Perhaps one of the books on the Milwaukee Road has pictures or a description. It is interesting that the bipolar design was not very powerful as the engine gives a visual impression of great power.
UPDATE: Well, ask and the internet provides. I found these pictures of the interior. My imagination of some sort of roomy comfort was all wrong. As I've seen in most locomotives - strictly utilitarian. The center section housed a boiler for heating the train.
Also I learned that the Bipolars were considered to be powerful at the time and were used in the mountains where steam locomotives required double-heading.
The engine frames were hinged in several places. I wondered how it would negotiate curves otherwise.
There are lots of scale models of this engine (Lionel, MTH, HO, brass etc.) Flyer's model has to be the simplest and most impressionistic but, in my opinion, a really creative effort.
Congratulations! You have made the 1,000th contribution to the thread.
A tip of the old fedora.
I had never even heard of prewar american flyer 3/16th scale until reading this! I've found a bunch of it from dealers at train shows that assumed since it was american flyer, it was s gauge, and I've got it all cheap. I'm curious to know, is there any pointers to a postwar 565 that set it apart from the prewar one? I own one, and there is no jack on the wire coming out of the cab to plug into a tender. I find it hard to believe that it could have fallen off. I don't have the tender for it. Could someone also explain how to post pictures?
tjl0824 - to the best prewar American Flyer source of information.
To post some pics is easy. I personally use www.photobucket.com it's free and it's easy, just set up an account.
As for the 565. It was cataloged in 1941; 1945-1946. There were no differences between prewar and postwar. The Locomotive had no pickup shoes on them and reliel on the tender for its power.
As for the 564 or 564C Tender. The 1941 version has journals and the 1945-1946 usually have none. The 564C Tenders has a choo-choo mechanism inside. I personally have 2 and neither have the correct "sound" as they are not as reliable as the later choo-choo Loco's that A. C. Gilbert produced.
I hope this helps.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
I have a post war 565 and it has a fahnstock clip on the front of the tender for the pick up connection with the locomotive. Another interesting thing is that one of the box cars I have is made with identical halves that have the mounts for the brake wheel. The other pre war box cars I own only have the mounts for the brake wheel on one end. AC Gilbert was probably using up existing stock on this post war O gauge pressed steel box car.
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I was sort of assuming that my engine was postwar, due to the fact it would connect to a fahnstock clip on the tender, which I believe should be lettered Reading, and would be postwar. Although in need of parts such as the trailing truck, it runs like new after I cleaned it. This was surprising to me because my 561 is on it’s third frame after the original and a replacement crumbled. I got lucky on the third try! That leads me to another question. The 561 has the 558-C tender with “chugger”. Only problem is that it doesn’t move enough air to produce a “choo-choo” sound, just the noise of the loud motor running. Is there a fix to that? I’d imagine it has something to do with the piston.
tjl0824,
First of all let me offer my to the forum and to the Pre War American Flyer thread. Its good to have you here. It looks as if you have gotten some good information from some of the participants here. I think you will find that someone will be able to answer most of your questions.
As far as posting photos to the thread. As AF53 pointed out you will need to use an online photo hosting site to be able to post photos here.
It is a relatively simple process, and if I can do it, you will be able to as well. The first step is to establish an account with an online photo hosting site. There were several that were suggested to me when I first started posting photos. I tried Shutterfly and I have stuck with it. http://www.shutterfly.com/ I take the digital pictures of my items, store them on my computer and then upload them and store them at my Shutterfly account. You can set up a number of "albums" and organize your pictures any way you like on the site. When I want to add them to my post on the thread I keep the message box open and open a second window with Shutterfly. I have the picture I want in the viewing window on Shutterfly (this will make sense once you see how the site is set up). I right click and copy the picture from shutterfly and then right click and paste it into the message as I am writing it, (or after I have written it).
It is a relatively simple process, and if I can do it, you will be able to as well.
The first step is to establish an account with an online photo hosting site. There were several that were suggested to me when I first started posting photos. I tried Shutterfly and I have stuck with it. http://www.shutterfly.com/
I take the digital pictures of my items, store them on my computer and then upload them and store them at my Shutterfly account. You can set up a number of "albums" and organize your pictures any way you like on the site.
When I want to add them to my post on the thread I keep the message box open and open a second window with Shutterfly. I have the picture I want in the viewing window on Shutterfly (this will make sense once you see how the site is set up). I right click and copy the picture from shutterfly and then right click and paste it into the message as I am writing it, (or after I have written it).
You can also use the icon in the tool bar at the top of the Post Message window and insert the URL of the photo that you want to post.
I look forward to seeing photos of your items.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
I started messing around with youtube and got a video of both my 561 and 565 up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB6KCagp2p4 Enjoy!
Trevor
Trevor,
Thanks for posting the video of your 561 and 565. Its great to see these old toys in operation. As a static display they are very impressive but when you can observe them running you get an entirely different impression. They even sound substantial; and yours are in great running condition. The long straight runs on your layout give these trains a chance to stretch their legs and show off.
I hope that you will post more photos of your collection and more videos of your trains in action.
311131 Sand Car
This car was offered approximately in 1936 and 1937. It never appeared in the Flyer catalog but it is listed in the 1936 Dealers' Price list as #1131. I have seen it most often included in the lower priced sheet metal Hiawatha set along with several other uncataloged freight cars. There are two major variations: one is a four wheel version with the axels riding on holes punched in the side of the frame, and the second is an eight wheel truck (Type X) fastened to the floor of the car with a rivet.
This is Variation (B) with Type X trucks.
I have had a 570 hudson for a few months, but never got into fixing it up until now. It needs a rear truck, and I can't find a replacement anywhere. Does anyone know where to get one? I also have a tender frame minus the shell, and I was going to buy an early s-gauge tender shell from a 320 or 321, but wasn't sure if they attached the same way. Also, are the side-frames for the trucks on the tender the same as the s-gauge ones?
A S scale tender shell will fit. The tender trucks are similar and you can by reproduction S scale truck sides but I am not sure if the studs on the S scale truck side frame will match the O scale truck. But it is worth a try. I know that Fred Jester had the O gauge trailing truck for sale as I have personally seen them. But since his death access to his parts have been problematic. Relatives did have them at the pre TCA train show in York back in April. Port Line Hobbies may now have some O scale parts.
Just posting some pics of my budding young Prewar O 3/16" collection. Hope to see more of this stuff posted. It was only manufactured for about 3 years prior to WWII (1939 to 1941) and then A.C. Gilbert switched over to S gauge. Which for those that don't know is the same 3/16" scale as his Prewar O but with the more scale and realistic (as advertised) two rail track. It's been interesting to see the development of this line.
This first pic would be the O gauge Pennsy K5, this is the same casting used on the post war 310 series.
This next pic is a 545, it uses the same boiler casting as the 561 however it is a 4-4-2 where the K-5 is a 4-6-2 and even though the boiler casting is 3/16" scale the 545 uses an earlier "Coleman" type O gauge tender.. this was also curious as the 545 was sold with 3/16" rolling stock. It was not advertised in the 1940 catalog as "3/16"".. I wonder what A.C. was thinking? I threw this pic in for comparison as I don't really consider this true "3/16""
This next pic is the O gauge Hudson which would later become the 320 series in S. I might add a personal opinion, these "TruModel" train engines were glorious representations! of the real thing.
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
Here is a pic of a Prewar O 3/16" Atlantic. This was more than likely a "budget" set or possibly a postwar sale of a prewar train as there are no journals on the trucks.. same with the cars that it came with.
Note that prewar and early postwar production engines listed the name of the line rather than American Flyer Lines.. in his bid to make the "Tru Model" line more realistic the engines would read "Reading Line", "New York Central" and "Pennsylvania"
Here are a couple of PW O lumber cars and the variations.. one has straight sided straps to hold the load on the other has formed straps to better grip the load. On the straight sided strap the logs have a tendency to work loose and slide out. There are also other load with square lumber, I don't have any of these yet.
Some Prewar Cabooses and the variations in my small collection. One is a regular lighted caboose with white handrails. Then a lighted caboose with black handrails. and lastly an unlit caboose with an odd stamping on the bottom. I don't know what this caboose was stamped for? So if anyone can add to this please do.
It seems this unusual stamping on the bottom of my Caboose is the same stamping used in the bottom of a Chugger Tender. I wonder if this was the same stamping used just to fill in the bottom? of did they ever make a caboose with chugger (that seems unlikely).. I wonder how uncommon this tender floor is?
Here are some more pics of rolling stock. The line was not that extensive as compared to post war Flyer S, however collecting variations and searching for super nice condition can be fun and challenging.
The searchlight car is always a favorite, I have a girder car and am currently looking for a crane car to go with as well as the unloading car which has a Tank for it's load.
Finding one of these yellow hoppers with all it's paint intact is a challenge. no primer used so the paint has a tendency to "pop" off..
and the same is true for this green gondola.
Here are a few pics of Passenger cars. I'll add more sets and detail later.
The baggage car in red
Passenger car in red. These came in lighted and unlighted versions.
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