Southern Colorado Marx Flyer There seem to be three different types of couplers with O gauge cars. I am assuming the tab-and-slot couplers came first, then the curly-q, then the link couplers. I don't know, however, what AF was thinking in this progression (if indeed that is how the progression occurred). What advantages did the later couplers convey? I don't think any of them are capable of automatic uncoupling, though I think the curly-q and link couplers could be coupled automatically. Perhaps the curly-q looked more prototypical than the tab-and-slot? The link couplers seem to be the most secure - almost needing explosives to separate them. I can't imagine that any were cheaper to manufacture than the tab-and-slots.
There seem to be three different types of couplers with O gauge cars.
I am assuming the tab-and-slot couplers came first, then the curly-q, then the link couplers. I don't know, however, what AF was thinking in this progression (if indeed that is how the progression occurred). What advantages did the later couplers convey? I don't think any of them are capable of automatic uncoupling, though I think the curly-q and link couplers could be coupled automatically. Perhaps the curly-q looked more prototypical than the tab-and-slot? The link couplers seem to be the most secure - almost needing explosives to separate them. I can't imagine that any were cheaper to manufacture than the tab-and-slots.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer;
American Flyer used the tab and slot couplers for a long time. Schuweiler identifies eight different variations of the tab and slot coupler that were used from 1907 until 1939. The Wide/Low Profile cars that you have shown were cataloged from 1930 through 1939.
The sheet metal knuckle coupler was used in 1938 and 1939 and is actually a design introduced by Gilbert when they took over the company in 1938. "The curly Q" coupler can couple remotely if you push the cars together just right, but it does not uncouple remotely. I have read that it will also couple with a Lionel knuckle coupler, but I have never tried it personally.
The "automatic" link and pin coupler is also a Gilbert design that was introduced in 1939 and was used on the O gauge line until production was shifted to war work in 1941. This type of coupler with a few changes was used on the S-gauge line after the war. The link and pin coupler does couple when two cars are pushed together - just right. It also uncouples remotely with a special track section. When the couplers are positioned over the track section the operator pushes a button that energizes a solenoid (I think) and two long pieces of metal pop up and push the two links upward off of the pins. Its simple but it does work
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
I like link couplers as they will couple on curves and straights equally well. The die cast prewar ones on the heaver truck frame are more reliable the the post war plastic ones that become sticky and not drop down consistently. They couple the cars closer together that earlier tab couplers (pre war) or later knuckle couplers during the post war era.
Northwoods Flyer ... I have read that (the curly "Q" coupler) will also couple with a Lionel knuckle coupler, but I have never tried it personally. ... Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
... I have read that (the curly "Q" coupler) will also couple with a Lionel knuckle coupler, but I have never tried it personally.
...
i tried this today and they mate almost perfectly. odd since i didn't think the Lionel knuckle coupler was produced until well after 1938(?) the earliest L catalog i have with automatic knuckle couplers is 1946.
Thanks for the coupler information.
From your descriptions I can see how the link pins could be remotely uncoupled. There are a number of AF uncouplers on eBay, but all look to be for 2-rail (S) track. As a matter of fact, it isn't clear to me how an uncoupler with solenoid controlled arms would work with 3-rail track as the middle rail would be directly below the links. I suppose if I saw a picture - I'll look for one.
Found one:
It looks like the entire middle rail section lifts.
Also, maybe it is just an adjustment, but on the cars I have if the link pin coupler is not coupled, it hangs low enough to contact the center rail with predictable effect.
I have some prewar Lionel passenger cars with several different types of couplers (1938-1942). None of these will hook up with the curly-Q. Postwar Lionel knuckle couplers, however, hook up fine as overlandflyer stated.
Type XXI Steam Locomotive
(Pennsylvania Locomotive) 1936 - 1939
In 1936 American Flyer introduced the Type XXI Steam Locomotive that was patterened after Pennsylvania streamlined locomotives.
The locomotive has a sheet metal body and a die cast boiler front. The wheel arrangement is unusual in that it is an 0-4-2.
I have an unmarked engine in rough shape that I was trying to identify. while this one looks like it with the accent copper pipes and all, I am missing the trucks in front and rear, with no markings. Looks lik AF underside with the motor pickups. I do not have, however, the front or rear car-connects, no do I have space in the front cowcatcher.
I will post photo: whoops, I dont have a photobucket account.
http://s1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/frank77433/
Thanks for your thoughts. Scot
Scot - Welcome to trains.com!
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miggy2007 I have an unmarked engine in rough shape that I was trying to identify. while this one looks like it with the accent copper pipes and all, I am missing the trucks in front and rear, with no markings. Looks lik AF underside with the motor pickups. I do not have, however, the front or rear car-connects, no do I have space in the front cowcatcher. http://s1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/frank77433/ Thanks for your thoughts. Scot
Scot, what you have is an uncataloged American Flyer Type XX locomotive from ~1935. the good news is that you are not actually missing the trailing truck for this was made as a 2-4-0 with the whistle mechanism taking up so much room, a trailing truck was not put on this version. some further bad news, however, is that you seem to be missing both the main drive rod and side rod from at least the side you show.
the whistle motor is not extremely rare, but it is nice if you have a functional one.
cheers...gary
I loved the pictures of the three types of AF streamlined engines. I especially loved the shot of all three on different tracks. Nice!!
From photos I found on the Internet, it looks like they were patterned after the PRR S1 and NYC Streamlined Hudson (other than wheel arrangement of course).
They must have been something to witness.
In relation to AF streamlined steam, I recently acquired this O scale clockwork Hiawatha "Atlantic" that in my book rates among the most detailed American clockwork engine I have ever seen. Separately applied chrome handrails, domes and stack, four color lithography and the cab being molded to offset the outline from the rest of the body, as well as faux piston guides. It just confirms what a quality product AF was in that era along with my other acquisitions. The photos don't do the bright colors justice. I am keeping an eye out for the articulated cars. Looking at the front and how the headlight position was cut, I suspect I am missing a chromed cowling, maybe not.
.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
i don't have access to my clockwork version right now, but i do have an electric motor Hiawatha on my shelf and you're right about this model; it sure is purdy!
the good news is that there is no headlamp cowl missing from your piece. not sure if any of the c/w versions supported a battery/headlight, but on the electric version, there is merely a screw-base socket behind the hole and the globe of the headlight bulb is all that shows externally. if you had the headlight bracket, that hole in front would be filled with an attachment rivet.
with my electric version (a whistling motor), there is also a lead weight (marked "W.O. 6027") attached by yet another screw up front sadly detracting from that nice wing logo.
overlandflyer i don't have access to my clockwork version right now, but i do have an electric motor Hiawatha on my shelf and you're right about this model; it sure is purdy! the good news is that there is no headlamp cowl missing from your piece. not sure if any of the c/w versions supported a battery/headlight, but on the electric version, there is merely a screw-base socket behind the hole and the globe of the headlight bulb is all that shows externally. if you had the headlight bracket, that hole in front would be filled with an attachment rivet. with my electric version (a whistling motor), there is also a lead weight (marked "W.O. 6027") attached by yet another screw up front sadly detracting from that nice wing logo. cheers...gary
I suspect you are right as after reading your comment I turned it upside down and there is no evidence of the rivet holes on both the body and the frame had ever being used for anything. I suspect that the rivet holes were put in all and depending on what was produced, added or subtracted, they were used as in your example and in mine, as a less expensive clockwork..nada.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer I loved the pictures of the three types of AF streamlined engines. I especially loved the shot of all three on different tracks. Nice!! From photos I found on the Internet, it looks like they were patterned after the PRR S1 and NYC Streamlined Hudson (other than wheel arrangement of course). They must have been something to witness.
While there is no doubt that the NYC streamlined J-3a was the prototype for the later version of the Flyer streamliner, the PRR S-1 was only introduced in 1939 at the New York Word's Fair and could not have served as the prototype for the earlier Flyer streamliner.
There was an earlier PRR locomotive, a K-4 Pacific numbered 3768 (I think) which was streamlined by Raymond Loewy using the same basic styling as he later used on the much larger S-1. In particular, the Pacific had the Keystone emblem with wings either side on the domed nose as reproduced quite accurately on the Flyer streamliner, and had the multiple fine striping on the tender.
It was painted a dark metallic bronze colour, and the original black is probably the closest Flyer came to the real PRR colour. The gunmetal grey was always the colour of the NYC locomotive that the later version represented.
M636C
[quote user="M636C"
[/quote]
Aha!
Then it was this one then:
I sure can see now how that is much closer. Thanks for the correction and information.
Thanks for the photos of the prototype engines folks. I like seeing how closely toy train manufacturers modeled the real thing.
Since we are on the topic of streamlined steamers; Gilbert had a streamlined steamer that they introduced into the product line in 1940. There were actually two streamlined steam engines introduced into the 3/16" O gauge line that year.
The #556 Royal Blue appeared in the 1940 catalog.
Wonderful posts Northwoods Flyer. Terrific pictures and descriptions.
I am trying to keep up with you - to the extent of my interests - and find this thread to be the definitive source for Pre-war American Flyer information. I must say you have had a major impact on my wallet, but I am in no way complaining. I love this stuff.
I recently picked up an AF 420 and Vanderbilt tender from eBay. I had been looking for the tender and found one too pricey for my taste, then happened upon an engine and tender for a fraction of the price I had seen for the tender alone. eBay is interesting to say the least. Of course now I am interested in the double-headers. You have posted before on these so no need to repeat what you have posted before. I am interested in the "dummy" engine." I may not be able to find one in my price range on the internet, so would be interested if there are possible substitutions. The "dummy" obviously does not have a motor. How did AF accomplish this? Did they use a normally motored loco and disconnect the drive? Could you provide more detailed images on the dummy? That would be very interesting to me.
Thank you again, for this thread, and your continued contributions.
Craig
Craig,
The dummy locomotive is a frame, wheels, axles, power pick up, headlight, and leading and trailing trucks. There is no guts or armature installed in the frame. ie no windings of any sort or armature.
The first dummy engine that I purchased confused me as I bought a double header set minus the 420 locomotive and I could not figure out why there were two tenders and an engine with no guts in it.
One additional thing I have discovered is that the correct 420 for the double header set will have a big lead weight mounted above the trailing truck. This is something that not all 420s have.
NWL
Thanks for the information NWL.
I know this is not the correct tender for the double header, but on the 420 engine, is this the trailing truck weight you referred to?
As for the dummy, going strictly by pictures in this thread on page 33 it looks to be a 2-4-4 . . .
, , ,while the one on page 53 looks to be a 2-4-0. . .
Maybe there was more than one wheel arrangement for the dummy?
No the weight you have is the standard weight for the trailing truck. See the photo below for the extra cab weight that I have seen with the correct 420 for the double header set. There is a screw on either side, below the cab window that holds this weight in place. I do not have the correct screws in mine, but the weight is original. I suspect that additional weight was required in the cabs of these engines, so that the weight of the larger double header set could be pulled.
As for the dummy engine, it should be a 2-4-4 configuration.
Thanks again NWL.
I wondered what the extra screw holes were for. Now I know. I have a 420 coming. I'll have to see how she pulls without the extra weight.
The pictured 2-4-0 from page 53 must have been missing the rear t ruck.
Northwoods Flyer The prototype was designed by Otto Kuhler and must have been wonderful to see racing along the track. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
The prototype was designed by Otto Kuhler and must have been wonderful to see racing along the track.
It appears that Gilbert, like the earlier Flyer, chose their streamlined prototypes poorly and B&O 5304 pictured above with its bullet nose was a one-off (like PRR 3768) and only lasted from 1937 until 1940 in its streamlined form. To add insult to injury, B&O 5304 was streamlined again post WW II to a different and somewhat more conservative design.
This may have influenced Gilbert in using the dies for "Freelanced" designs post WW II and not issuing the matching blue passenger cars post WW II. Of course B&O obtained the very first EMD E units for their crack passenger trains in 1937 and by 1946 these trains were predominantly diesel powered.
However, the reproduction of the streamlined Pacific was quite accurate, even if not widely used as an example of accuracy, like the NYC Hudson or the UP FEF.
Many early streamliners were like this, and the NYC 5344 "Commodore Vanderbilt" used by Lionel as a streamliner (and as the prototype for their 1/4" scale Hudson in non streamlined form) was re-clad like the later Twentieth Century streamlined J-3A which was the prototype for the later Flyer 2-4-4 streamliner.
It looks like NWL has pretty much provided you with the information you were looking for. The example back on page 53 is indeed missing its rear truck. As far as alternatives to the actual dummy locomotive from the Double Header set I would imagine that any engine could be made into an unpowered engine by stripping out the works and figuring out a way to mount wheels so that it was more of a push/pull toy.
Here are a few more of the Type XX Dummy. I thought I would try to give you an idea of what Flyer did with it - without actually disassembling it.
M636C,
Thanks again for the information on prototype engines that Flyer used as a basis for their streamlined steamers. I went looking around the internet to see if I could find a film clip to link to of the real Royal Blue. I haven't spent much time looking, but so far I have been unsuccessful. I wonder if there is some news reel or archival footage languishing around somewhere.
If I post some photos of the other steamliners that Flyer produced - Zephyr, Hiawatha, UP....etc., I wonder if we could come up with some additional prototype photos, information, and actual running footage. We did that back on pages 4 and 9 with the Comet.
Northwoods Flyer If I post some photos of the other steamliners that Flyer produced - Zephyr, Hiawatha, UP....etc., I wonder if we could come up with some additional prototype photos, information, and actual running footage. ... Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
If I post some photos of the other steamliners that Flyer produced - Zephyr, Hiawatha, UP....etc., I wonder if we could come up with some additional prototype photos, information, and actual running footage. ...
just Googling "Otto Kuhler" brings up a lot of his designs.
Thank you for the great pictures Northwoods Flyer. They are very helpful.
It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide.
The engine appears to be a 401 judging by the single rectangular window square window - though AF may have produced other models with that window design - and by the style of valve gear.
I recently picked up an engine that looks to be the right type (or close) and also looks to need quite a bit of repair (e.g. wheel replacement).
I'm hoping it still has the necessary parts intact. I won't worry too much about the trailing wheel configuration. I'll try getting away with removing as much of the innards as I can without breaking into the case and see what happens. And of course I'll have to figure out the coupling. Might be a fun project.
Thanks again for the pictures and your effort in making them.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer ... It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide. ...
It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide. ...
in the example i have, aside from a few minor main driver wheel chips and one lead wheel with some rot, the chassis is in vg+ to exc condition and, though it could probably use a little more weight (and there is plenty of space for it), the basic mass of the locomotive itself is enough that the wheels and valve gear turn freely when being pulled.
if you need any detail pictures such as the front coupler or trailing truck attachments, let me know.
I thought I might one more point regarding the B&O "Royal Blue" and reproducing the photo one more time makes it easier to explain, if those not interested will forgive me for this failure of forum etiquette.
There were TWO streamlined Royal Blue trains at this period, one built 1934/35 and the one illustrated, dating from 1937.
The earlier train was built by American Car and Foundry in St Charles MO and was one of a pair of experimental trains, one made from aluminium alloy and one for Cor-Ten steel. The two trains were used initially for the "Royal Blue" and the "Abraham Lincoln" on the Alton Railroad, then controlled by B&O. The two trains looked the same, and I'm not sure which was steel and which was aluminium.
Both of these trains ended up on the Alton, which became part of the GM&O and later ICG. The observation from one of these trains is preserved in the museum in St. Louis.
The later train was rebuilt from heavyweight Pullman built cars, and this is the train illustrated with 5304 on the viaduct. The later train introduced the blue and grey colour scheme illustrated.
The earlier train consisted of lower profile eight wheel lightweight cars with shallow skirting. While the leading car on the second Royal Blue train was a combine, the earlier trains both had a full mail/baggage as the leading car. And the colour of the two earlier trains wasRoyal Blue, with just a gold stripe.
Hopefully, the point I'm making is becoming clear...
The earlier trains were very similar to the New Haven type cars modelled in both HO and 3/16" by the Gilbert controlled American Flyer. The windows on the B&O and Alton coaches were evenly spaced, not in pairs, and the ends of the cars were flat and not rounded. But the prototype cars were blue overall and very similar in style to the cars in the AF Royal Blue set.
I don't know if 5304 ever ran with the earlier set of "Royal Blue" cars although they would have been around together, and it would logically have hauled them on the "Royal Blue" if it was complete before the later set of cars was complete.
So not only was the locomotive a remarkably accurate reproduction of the prototype, but the cars in the set were a good representation of a a B&O train of the period.
I hope this is of interest.
Thanks for the information on the Royal Blue. I did some hunting with Google and came up with this photo. I assume it is of the observation from the Royal Blue that you mention in your post.
Here is the passenger coach from the Royal Blue set by Flyer. Does the window arrangement follow the pattern of the later cars?
And the baggage.
overlandflyer Southern Colorado Marx Flyer: ... It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide. ... in the example i have, aside from a few minor main driver wheel chips and one lead wheel with some rot, the chassis is in vg+ to exc condition and, though it could probably use a little more weight (and there is plenty of space for it), the basic mass of the locomotive itself is enough that the wheels and valve gear turn freely when being pulled. if you need any detail pictures such as the front coupler or trailing truck attachments, let me know. cheers...gary
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer: ... It is interesting that the geared drive wheels remain, though the main drive gear is not present. And apparently no coil, commutator, brush housing etc. The main thing I wondered about is whether the wheels and valve gear turn freely - it seems like maybe they would have a tendency to slide. ...
Hey Gary,
Thank you for your offer. A close-up picture of how the front coupler is attached to the dummy would be helpful.
Here is what I am working with:
I am most likely going to use a tab and slot coupler instead of the curly-q as this is what is on the tender of the lead engine.
Based on your comment about weight, I decided to leave in most of the innards of the motor.
Neither the lead nor trailing trucks have weights. Do you think they need them? I can get replacement trucks with weights from TTRP. I would need to buy truck wheels as it is. I will be ordering replacement main wheels from them as it stands now, so maybe the weighted trucks would be a good plan.
Thanks again for your willingness to help.
here is the pilot of my dummy Type XX...
there are two 3/32" spacers under the coupler raising the top of the cruly-Q ~3/16" above the pilot deck. the attachment rivet is slightly flared beneath but left loose enough that the coupler turns very freely..
interesting that the hardrails terminate differently than yours, but without any holes in the deck , i've got to imagine this was how mine left the factory.
good luck; cheers...gary
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