handyandy,
That is an interesting observation. In the Greenberg guide Schuweiler gives the dates of 1930 through 1940 for the Type IV tender being available in the catalog. The Type V (which is similar) was cataloged from 1931 through 1935. The Type IV had a relatively long run in the line and went through a number of variations and numbers. I'm not familiar with the dates of Marx production. Do you have any idea what years the wedge tender was produced?
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
As near as I can tell from the Marxtin web site, the wedge tender came out as a four wheel car in 1938, so Marx must have been the copy cat! LOL
Here is a York acquisition (at least the engine is, I had the tender). This is a c. 1911-1914 Type IV engine. Both the engine and tender are uncataloged in that they did not appear in the Flyer catalogs. However, the engine/tender combination appeared in Butler Brothers and G. Sommers & Co. catalogs in the 1911-1914 era. There are reportedly two versions of this tender, one of which is shown here on an early 328 type tender frame and the other reported to be on an early 120 type tender without the embossed details normally found on that tender.
The engine is also reported to have variations, with my engine having tin wheels and others having wheels that match the drive wheels. Both variations are correct. There is also reported to be a variation that has a battery lit headlight, instead of the fake wooden headlight on mine. The bell and sand dome are made of wood, but my bell has apparently been replaced with a brass one off of a standard gauge locomotive.
NWL
NWL - Very interesting find! I've never seen an American Flyer clockwork with a trailing truck.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Ray,
The AF windup with trailing truck is very rare and is not even shown in the Greenberg's guide, other than in some wholesaler's catalog artwork that is reproduced in the guide.
My post on this engine should have included a better description of its design. Unlike the other early engines, which were all cast iron, this engine features a tin boiler and cab with a cast iron cow catcher and steam chest that are attached to the boiler.
These unusual engines appear to have only been sold with the 5 window "Chicago" cars, which are quite rare themselves. I have only seen a few of these engines.
NWL,
You never cease to amaze me. You keep finding wonderful variations of the early production of American Flyer. That engine is a real beauty. Imagine if they had produced more of that particular style. Your York hunting always pays off. Thanks for posting.
206 Danger Signal - Revisited.
The 206 was cataloged from 1920 through 1932. As we have documented before on the thread there were a variety of color variations during those years. In fact I posted some of them as a greeting for the 6th anniversary of this thread.
Just recently I picked up another variation on eBay and I thought I would share it.
In my observation one of the most common colors is the one in orange.
Schuweiler documents a variation to this color. It lacks the American Flyer R.R. printed in the center on the crossbar. I've seen several of these over the years.
The 206 also comes in red.
I just recently came across a red version without the American Flyer R.R. printing.
So there are at least two versions without the manufacturer being identified. I wonder if these were factory errors or if Flyer sold these to other train manufacturers.
Here is a family shot.
Northwoods,
I suspect that the 206 danger signs without the American Flyer identification may have been used in department store special sets, where they may not have wanted the American Flyer identifying information on the signs. The JC Penny Nation Wide Lines sets and other special sets for Wards, etc. likely contained these signs.
Here is another York purchase. I bought it because the condition was so nice!
There is only a small wear mark from the hands of the clock turning. This one has already been substituted into my boxed equipment set.
NationWideLines,
That station clock is beautiful. I don't think I have ever seen one that pristine. Nice find.
2004/4004 Crossing Set with Automatic Bell
According to Schuweiler the 4004 was intended to be the version used for Wide Gauge and appeared only in the 1936 catalog. The 2004 appeared in the catalogs from 1936 through 1938 and was intended for Narrow Gauge. The only real difference was the size of the track section that came with the accessory. Both of the sets were made up of a #214 Watchman's Tower and a #2222 Crossing gate
For years I have had this example in my collection.
This is the version described in the text of Schuweiler's book; with the Watchman's tower in green and white. It is in the listing for the 2004.
The text for for the 4004 does not give the colors but it does have a black and white photo that shows a different house on the Watchman's tower. A close examination shows that it is this variation.
I've been looking for this variation for years and finally came across this one. In my experience at least, there are far fewer of this version with the orange house available.
Other than the house used on the Watchman's Tower they are identical.
For all of the years that I have had my example I did not know that the crossing gate was made to pivot on the base and could be used in a number of direction.
1)
2)
3)
There is a third style of lithographed house that Flyer used. I wonder if there is a Crossing Set with Automatic Bell that has that house on the tower.
That crossing set with the early building on it is a great find. I like that version over the one with the later building on it. Unfortunately, they are much tougher to find and I do not have one with the early building on it.
Here is a neat set I found at a local show on Sunday. It is "The Merchant" c. 1928-1929 with this one being the variation having the 3185 auto reverse motor.
I am reportedly the proud 3rd owner of this set, as the person who I bought it from told me they bought it from the original owner about 20-25 years ago and the original owner said that the set was not used much.
Anyway, for your viewing pleasure.
One unusual thing I noted about the above boxcar is that it only has a single brake wheel (and associated bracket). This must be some sort of factory error as all of the other early boxcars I have seen from the 1928-1930 era have two brake wheels, which makes it impossible to remove the roof, once the brake wheels and posts are installed.
And the set together.
Overall a very nice set and tough set to find with the original boxes.
Wow! NationWideLines that is one beautiful example of The Merchant set. How nice to have the original boxes and set box, and to know its history. Great find!
553 Streamlined Engine Revisited
The 553 engine and tender combination is part of the Gilbert 3/16" O gauge line. It was only cataloged in 1940. The engine is given the number 551 and the tender is given the number 552. The two pieces together are given the number 553. You have to love Flyer's numbering system.
Recently I picked up a second 553 and I noticed some differences. While I am not sure that these differences qualify as a variation (Schuweiler doesn't identify them that way) they are worth noting.
Here are my two examples.
It is impossible to tell from my photos but there is a subtle difference in the grey paint used on each engine. The top example is just a shade lighter in color. The tenders match their engines exactly. So there must have been at least two paint batches when these were being produced.
The first noticeable difference is that the bottom engine has a decal that says "American Flyer Lines". The top engine does not have the decal and there is no evidence that it ever had one.
Both engines have a 553 decal.
The next obvious difference is the lettering on the tenders. The top tender has "American Flyer Lines" stamped in silver in the indented part of the body. The bottom tender has a decal with white lettering that matches the decal above the running board of the engine. (Schuweiler does make note of this difference in the tenders in his book.)
Another difference is that there are two different trailing trucks used. I know that these trucks are easily swapped out, but it does present another possible difference. I'd like to know if anyone else has examples of the two different trailing trucks.
Now when you look at the engines side by side I bet its easier to see the differences.
I think its interesting to find these kinds of differences. It gives a bit of an insight into the manufacturing process and how things changed as the supplies of materials on hand changed.
So now I can make up the two trains that were headed by this engine in its one year appearance in the catalog; a passenger set and a freight set.
By the way. If you have Schuweiler's book on Pre War O gauge; if you look at the photo that he uses on page 220 to illustrate the 553 you will notice that it is a 4-6-2 not a 4-4-2. I wonder if that is a factory original or if it is a 553 shell placed on a 556 Royal Blue chassis. Does anyone know H. Thiele, or anything about his collection? We collectors of variations can be very detail oriented.
Thanks for the comments on The Merchant set. I was looking at a table of stuff at the local show and turned around and there it was! The only Flyer piece on the dealer's table.
I am afraid I cannot help you on Gilbert era O gauge. However, I do know that Hank Thiele is deceased. I know he lived in the Twin Cities area and passed away a few years ago. I dealt with him a few times over the years and he was very nice and knowledgeable.
Northwoods - Here is my version of the 553 Streamlined Engine.
and the tender. It is part of my Streamliner Freight Train set no. 4004 from 1940. As you can see, they do match one of the two sets you have. Being that it was produced in one year only, strange to have two different models.
and the tender.
It is part of my Streamliner Freight Train set no. 4004 from 1940. As you can see, they do match one of the two sets you have. Being that it was produced in one year only, strange to have two different models.
Here is a link to see an old video of it running.
On a side note, it's funny seeing these older videos to see how much changes has taken place over time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUIFvSwHMSI
Its always great to see some Pre War Flyer in motion, even if the video was taken a while ago. Thanks for posting.
3216 Variations
I know that we have posted variations of the 3216 at other places on the thread, but I just got another one that is interesting because I think that it shows something of the adaptations that that Flyer went through with existing parts.
These are two of the variations that I have posted before. One has 4 - "3216" brass tags on red cross pieces and the other has 4 - " American Flyer Lines" brass tags on red cross pieces.
The most recent variation has 4 - "American Flyer Lines" brass tags on blue cross pieces.
They all have Type XIV frames, two brake wheels, and Type VIII trucks. The top example has Lionel couplers added by a previous owner. The interesting thing to notice is that the blue crosspieces are clearly over painted. The red paint shows through in spots where the blue paint was applied.
And the blue paint is a bit clumpy in spots.
Sorry about the poor focus.
1930 Man-O-War
Back on Page 27 or 28 Mersenne6 describes a 1930 Man-o-War set that he obtained, but unfortunately he never really posted pictures of the entire set. He described the set as having a number of substitutions for what normally would have came with the set. I found the descriptions of his set to be very interesting and my guess is that his set dates from mid 1931 or so.
I base this on his description of the cars as having some mixed number and letter boards and the photos which show the cars as having gray painted trucks. My opinion is also based on an excellent article that was published in the TCA Quarterly in July 2011 that details sets with the 3300 series passenger cars.
Below are photos of a 1930 Man-o-War set that I recently acquired. Note that my set has American Flyer plates on each car. Mersenne6 thought that the cars should have Ambassador plates on each car, but in reading the TCA Quarterly article, the cars in the Man-o-War set are correct in having the American Flyer plates, with black trucks and brass air tanks and the 1931 Cumberland set (which featured the new 3300 steam engine) is correct with cars having the gray trucks with cast iron air tanks, like Mersenne6's set. Therefore, I suspect that Mersenne6's set is a late set that got substitutions to the components.
Based on the TCA Quarterly article, these red 3380 series cars with American Flyer plates and black trucks with brass air tanks are likely some rare cars, as they would only appear in 1930 in the Man-o-War set with the steam engine. All of the early sets with the St. Paul type electric style locomotives should come with the Ambassador plated cars. However, some of the later sets (1931 and after with the St. Paul) did come with the mixed letterboard plates, that are lettered for American Flyer, Golden State, and Jeffersonian. Mersenne6 noted that one of his cars had Jeffersonian plates on it.
Nationwide, here's what mine looks like. Given the number of differences I would guess 1931 too.
Hi Jclasshero,
Welcome to the thread. . What parts are you looking for? I haven't entered into the phase of the hobby where I do my own repairs yet; that will happen as I get closer to retirement. Trickel has a number of parts and I know that there are others who carry replacement parts. Be patient, there are a number of folks who read this thread who will be able to provide some answers for you.
JclassheroOk this looks like the place to ask this question. I came across a Pre war 1270. Not a show piece but something to tinker on. Were is a good place to look for parts to retore it?
It really depends on what parts you are looking for. Reproduction wheels are available through Henningstrains.com, as well as some other parts. Trickelcastparts.com also has some of the various diecast parts that are reproduced out of lead.
Unfortunately, there are some parts that are not available. For those one often has to find original parts from junker/donor items.
Nationwide, I had a chance to look over the pictures of your set again and I think it is not only 1930 I think it is probably within the first few months of 1930. It is the first picture of that set I have ever seen where the components actually match the catalog cut and I am impressed.
I've seen sets with the two later versions of the #3198 - the version with the cast pedestal on the boiler front for the bell and the version with the separate sheet metal bell/visor combination and I have seen a set with a 3198 and a 4 wheel tender and the version I have. All of these sets had cars with gray trucks. I've never seen a set with black trucks. It's nice to know that Flyer actually did make the set as illustrated.
Mersenne6,
Thanks for your comments.
As for the 3198, I know that there are 3 different versions of the engine casting, one with the cast pedestal for the bell, one with no pedestal and no hole for the sheetmetal bell/visor, and one with a tapped hole with screwed on sheet metal bell/visor combination. I am not actually sure which version came first. It has been suggested to me that the version with the pedestal came first, the version with nothing was second, and the version with the sheet metal visor was third, but I really do not know. Your insight of seeing these other versions with cars with gray trucks would seem to indicate that the version with nothing came first.
The person who suggested the production order to me indicated that the pedestal was first as it would have been easier to delete this feature from the casting than add it, and when deleted one would have nothing there for bell/visor and then the adding of a tapped hole for the sheetmetal bell/visor would have been easy to add afterward. That made sense to me, but who really can tell. The fact that some of these engines are out there with later cars may indicate that my friend's thoughts on production are incorrect.
All of the other 3198 engines in my collection have the 4 wheel tender like the one you have with your set and I was very surprised to see a 4 wheel tender with your set.
I have not seen very many of these sets with the Ambassador type cars and steam engines. I have been looking for some correct large cars to go with my 1931 3300 locomotive and I thought the TCA Quarterly article was an excellent reference.
Until I saw your posting on this set, I did not realize that they were mixing/matching components in these sets, but that does not surprise me as I have found other boxed sets that had mis-matched components that were correct, apparently due to shortages and/or changes in the product during the year.
I only stumbled across my set by accident and was happy to add it to my collection.
Sorry about that Nationwidelines - chalk it up to rented fingers and not double checking the catalog cuts before typing. I managed to mix up the memory of the early 3195 and the first 3198. First - I agree with your friend with respect to to production order of the 3198 - pedestal, smooth, sheet metal visor, and for exactly the same reasons. Second, I'll modify the comment about your set by saying it is the only set I've seen which almost matches the catalog cut. I think both the pedestal and smooth 3198 engines have to be early 1930 and I think the transition to the sheet metal visor happened before the end of that year. This belief is just based on the number of sets I've seen which were cataloged with a 3198 and the fact that the vast majority of those I have seen had the version with the sheet metal visor and only a handful were headed by either of the other two.
The other thing worth noting is that even though the set I have was sold as a Man-o-War it did not come with a set box - just individual car boxes. Everything looks ok and matches in terms of condition and wear, however, the one thing that bothers me is the the same thing that suprised you - the substituted engine and tender or rather I should say the tender itself. As noted I have seen a boxed Man-o-War with a 3198 and a 4 wheel tender but in every other instance it was a 3198 with an 8 wheel tender. Every time I've found a set where the stripped down 3190 was substituted for the engine in the catalog cut the substitution only involved the engine itself.
This is the only set I've seen where the substitution of a stripped down 3190 for a 3198 also involved the replacement of the 8 wheel version with the 4 wheel. The end result is I have come to view this set with suspicion to the point where I've left a typed page in the box containing this set outlining my doubts. Of course, if like the oddball 3190 with the 3307 motor which I commented on awhile back, I see second set like this in any condition, I'll change my mind.
I thought I would try out this new format. I see that chrome no longer supports the CTT Forums. At least my post seems to be working fine with Internet Explorer.
Just a picture of a lamp, nothing special.
That is a good idea - I see my really old method through AOL completely fails, however it works going through Firefox and using the insert image option above with a copy paste of image location. Here's hoping it continues to do so.
I decided I should try it out too.
Edit: Its working fine with Chrome for me. The only problem I see is that the number of posts on each page has changed. That means any index that has been posted is grossly inaccurate.
When I bring the site up on chrome, I cannot see any threads. So I am not sure what is wrong, but it is working fine with IE.
I noted that the number of posts per page (and subsequently the number of pages) has changed also. I also thought of the index, but I cannot imagine redoing the index at this point.
Happy Holidays!
NationWideLines and mersenne6,
Great information on the 11" "Ambassador" cars. I dug out my copy of the July 2011 TCA quarterly and re-read the article. It has great information, but I'm still confused about some of the information about the cars and sets.
I have two sets of the cars. Here are some photos of the cars. I need to learn to take better photos and experiment with lighting. I know I need to get a better camera. In any case here we go:
The car on the bottom obviously has "Ambassador" plates above the windows. It has an "American Flyer" plate to the left and a "Club Car 3380" to the right. The car on the top has "American Flyer Lines" plates above the windows. It has 2 "Club Car 3380" plates on each side (no wonder Flyer ran out of these plates) The Ambassador car has a bright red body and a darker red roof, almost a maroon color. The top car has a bright red body and a matching shade of red on the roof. This color pattern follows through on all three cars. Notice the top car has brass steps on both ends, while the bottom car has brass steps only at the passenger end. The trucks on the bottom car are a dull black,while the trucks on the top car are a glossy black. The door on the top car is the same color as the roof of the Ambassador car! I took the photo below with a flash and it shows these differences a bit better.
Here are the pullmans
Both cars have one "Pullman 3381" and one "American Flyer" plate per side.
The Observation cars
They have one "American Flyer" plate and one "Observation 3382" per side. The Ambassador car has brass steps at one end, the American Flyer car has brass steps at both ends.
I would like to match the sets of cars up with the appropriate engine. I have a 3117 to go with the Ambassador plated cars, which according to the information here would be the right engine. I'm not sure which engine to look for to go with the American Flyer plated cars. This is where I need help guys.
After reading the article I know I'll be looking for the other variations of these cars.
More to come....
Your Ambassador cars would be correct with either a 3117 or a 3187. Due to the black trucks and brass air tanks on the Ambassador cars, my guess is that they date between 1928 and 1931. They may be a bit earlier production (1928ish) due to the darker red roofs, which I know is a common characteristic of the earlier production cars. I believe the earilest set of these cars came with an engine that was a darker red that matched the color of the roofs.
From what I have read in the TCA article, the cars with the American Flyer plates above the windows are correct with the 1930 smokey mountain set, so they would have come with a 3198 cast iron engine (whichever variation you select) and the matching 8 wheel tender, similar to my set.
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