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Smoke unit fade

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 14, 2007 7:05 PM

well not realy a noticeable change. I nestled it and even took it apart again and re packed looser. Still same result. The holes are clear and when I sit in idle and let it heat up then take off you can see the puffs but they quickly go away as the piston clears the chamber.

It seems that it really has to be moving at a good clip to produce but that just makes the smoke not as noticeable.

Has anyone tried putting a lower voltage element in so that the power doesn't have to be so high? Does anyone even know the values of the original element?

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Posted by Jumijo on Friday, December 14, 2007 7:17 PM

Did you resolder the wire?

It takes a few laps for all the fluid to heat up and start billowing. First it starts out as a wisp and builds up. The only thing else I can tell you is to check and see that the piston is moving freely and smoothly up and down. Then run it and see if that makes a difference.

Jim

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 14, 2007 7:41 PM

Hey Jim,

I resoldered the wire and I must say it is a better contact then from the factory.

My piston seems to be moving freely. I do not hear binding and the engine is running smooth.

I am also getting the bilowing very well. Like I mentioned, when in idle and getting a build up in the pot, once I move forward it puffs great for a lap around  original diameter and 6 feet long

 I will try to break it in a bit. Maybe it needs saturated more.

Did I metion I appreciate your help today :-) Thank you,

I will keep trying. I am not one to give up. I just wanted to for go the extra expense for a different smoke unit I saw on the web. have you heard of tas studios. They have a great unit for these Lionel engines.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 14, 2007 8:13 PM

ok, someone get me a fire extinguisher! I modified the recipe a bit and now have something that works for me.

I took out most of the pink insulation just leaving a very very thin layer at the bottom of the pot and around the air holes. I then cut some of the TIKI torch fibers to the length of the pot and layed them in very loose between the two air holes and just above. I wet it down with a few drops of fluid and built it up again loosely to above the air holes with the tiki fibers  and then replaced the top.

I put the shell on added 6 more drops and it is working great. I have more smoke at half throttle than I did at 3/4 or full.

Thank you Jim with the guidence you have given all day.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 14, 2007 9:13 PM

Mark,

          When you had the loco apart, was there a big white resistor laying on the frame by the two switches?  If so, take it out.  This will give the smoke unit more voltage, resulting in more smoke.  The stock heating element (8141-55) has a resistance of roughly 27 ohms without this resistor.  The element in my berk has a faint orange glow towards higher throttle settings, and it smokes great.  If you'd like to try a hotter element, try an element intended for an MTH smoke unit.  They are 16 ohms.  I haven't tried this myself, so I can't say if the higher heat would affect the piston or cylinder.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 14, 2007 9:19 PM

Hi Jim,

When you say the 2 switches, do you mean the on off switches for the smoke unit and the direction of travel. I really do not recall if it was there or not so I am going to remove the 4 screws again and look. mean while I will see if I hear back from you as to the switches. If it is not there could it be somewhere else? I do not know how many of my post you have read but I didn't even find a sock on my element. It was bare.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 14, 2007 9:30 PM
Jim, After looking under the hood, there is no apparent resistor. Coming from the smoke on off switch is a red wire that goes directly to the bottom of the frame. Just in front of the motor housing. the second wire, a black one goes right to the top of the smoke pot, is covered with an insulating tube and is the first connection to the element
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Posted by Jumijo on Saturday, December 15, 2007 6:36 AM
 Shhhucantcme wrote:

ok, someone get me a fire extinguisher! I modified the recipe a bit and now have something that works for me.

I took out most of the pink insulation just leaving a very very thin layer at the bottom of the pot and around the air holes. I then cut some of the TIKI torch fibers to the length of the pot and layed them in very loose between the two air holes and just above. I wet it down with a few drops of fluid and built it up again loosely to above the air holes with the tiki fibers  and then replaced the top.

I put the shell on added 6 more drops and it is working great. I have more smoke at half throttle than I did at 3/4 or full.

Thank you Jim with the guidence you have given all day.

Hey! That's great news! Glad to hear that your Polar Express is now smoking well. Next time your smoke unit needs a tune up, you will surely know all the tricks!

Best of luck, and congratulations.

Jim

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Saturday, December 15, 2007 9:27 AM
 Shhhucantcme wrote:

ok, someone get me a fire extinguisher! I modified the recipe a bit and now have something that works for me.

I took out most of the pink insulation just leaving a very very thin layer at the bottom of the pot and around the air holes. I then cut some of the TIKI torch fibers to the length of the pot and layed them in very loose between the two air holes and just above. I wet it down with a few drops of fluid and built it up again loosely to above the air holes with the tiki fibers  and then replaced the top.

I put the shell on added 6 more drops and it is working great. I have more smoke at half throttle than I did at 3/4 or full.

Thank you Jim with the guidence you have given all day.

GREAT NEWS!!  Glad JimTrumpie jumped in had helped too.  He always has good advice.

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by SotaPop on Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:47 AM

Just yesterday I picked up a complete PE set from a gentleman who was parting out sets on EBAY.  I took it out of the box and put about 6-8 drops of liquid "Christmas" smoke in the smoke unit.

I ran it for about 5 minutes, but no visible smoke.  So I tossed 'er in neutral and cranked up the transformer.  It then started to cloud in the stack.  Running it forward clears the stack rather quickly and then back to basically nothing.  I continued to run it hoping that I just had too many drops of smoke in the stack and it just needed to burn some of it off.  Nope - nothing visible that I could see.

From reading this thread - it isn't going to get better with time.  Looks like the best solution is to cut to the chase and bust 'er open and do the fix!

Thanks for the detailed procedures everyone!

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Posted by lionelsoni on Saturday, December 15, 2007 12:33 PM
Gas-log fireplace sets come with vermiculite and rock wool, which glow to produce the illusion of embers.  I wonder whether rock wool wouldn't be a more durable wick material than fiberglass, since it is literally made from rock blown into fibers at very high temperatures.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 15, 2007 1:11 PM

Yes chief,

Thank you to Jim trumpie for his suggestion that I wish would have worked. With the smoke I am getting now with JUMIJO's help, had Jim Trumpie's suggestion panned out with the resistor thing, I would also need a FIRE ENGINE!!!!

Who new that I would have no sock on the element? Who new I would have no resistor by the switch ( Thanks for trying here JIM Trumpie ) I didnt't even have a "Donut" Go figure.

Again, I say JOE SMOKE AT LIONEL MUST HAVE BEEN OUT TO LUNCH THAT DAY!!!

Kudo's to the other ( JIM ) A.K.A. JUMIJO for sticking with me all day and through out the evening. If it had not been for him I would have gave up much earlier on fixing this. I guess you are able to use a computer at work or maybe you are retired. All I know is that you kept answering back quickly to guide me through this. HMMMMMM how much do I owe u :-)

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 15, 2007 1:15 PM

lionelsoni,

just do like I did and follow along. You will be very pleased with the end result.

I am !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are some great guys in here.

By the way let me know if you have a resistor by the off on switch of the smoke unit when you take the shell off.

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Posted by Jumijo on Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:29 PM
 Shhhucantcme wrote:

Yes chief,

Thank you to Jim trumpie for his suggestion that I wish would have worked. With the smoke I am getting now with JUMIJO's help, had Jim Trumpie's suggestion panned out with the resistor thing, I would also need a FIRE ENGINE!!!!

Who new that I would have no sock on the element? Who new I would have no resistor by the switch ( Thanks for trying here JIM Trumpie ) I didnt't even have a "Donut" Go figure.

Again, I say JOE SMOKE AT LIONEL MUST HAVE BEEN OUT TO LUNCH THAT DAY!!!

Kudo's to the other ( JIM ) A.K.A. JUMIJO for sticking with me all day and through out the evening. If it had not been for him I would have gave up much earlier on fixing this. I guess you are able to use a computer at work or maybe you are retired. All I know is that you kept answering back quickly to guide me through this. HMMMMMM how much do I owe u :-)

No charge. I'm glad your smoke unit is working better now. Always glad to help someone if I can.

Jim

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Sunday, December 16, 2007 4:19 PM
 Shhhucantcme wrote:

Yes chief,

Thank you to Jim trumpie for his suggestion that I wish would have worked. With the smoke I am getting now with JUMIJO's help, had Jim Trumpie's suggestion panned out with the resistor thing, I would also need a FIRE ENGINE!!!!

Who new that I would have no sock on the element? Who new I would have no resistor by the switch ( Thanks for trying here JIM Trumpie ) I didnt't even have a "Donut" Go figure.

Again, I say JOE SMOKE AT LIONEL MUST HAVE BEEN OUT TO LUNCH THAT DAY!!!

Kudo's to the other ( JIM ) A.K.A. JUMIJO for sticking with me all day and through out the evening. If it had not been for him I would have gave up much earlier on fixing this. I guess you are able to use a computer at work or maybe you are retired. All I know is that you kept answering back quickly to guide me through this. HMMMMMM how much do I owe u :-)

I am sure Jumijo did help as he repeated everything I typed frrom the begining.  If it were not for Dr. Thinker and myself, he'd be sitting with dead engines. 

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Sunday, December 16, 2007 4:30 PM

 lionelsoni wrote:
Gas-log fireplace sets come with vermiculite and rock wool, which glow to produce the illusion of embers.  I wonder whether rock wool wouldn't be a more durable wick material than fiberglass, since it is literally made from rock blown into fibers at very high temperatures.

Bob...I find your suggestion to use rock wool very intriguing since this last year I have repaired or replaced several smoke units in both steam and diesel.  My only concern is its wicking properties.  Would it be able to wick the liquid upward towards the heating element in sufficient quantities especially when the reservoir is less than say half full?  My results using the pink insulation have been outstanding, but I might try the rock wool the next time I need to repack.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, December 16, 2007 5:51 PM

I found these promising words in Wikipedia: 

"Use in hydroponics

"Mineral wool is used for its ability to hold large quantities of water..."

Let us know how it works out if you try it!

Bob Nelson

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Posted by USNRol on Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:26 PM

Well I repacked my PE smoke unit.  Results less than satisfying.  My old wading was very charred where in contact with the heater and the heater element had burned on smoke fluid residue soaked into pink insulation.  I gently scraped off all the residue and repacked lightly with new pink insulation.  Mine never had a sock or a resistor.  I tried to get the heater down as low in the smoke box as I could so as to keep it always in the wet stuff. 

Anyway, performance is about the same as it was before...Weak.  It will only make thick smoke with voltage at max and sitting for a couple minutes.  Then you have to get some air moving up through the stack to get it to come out.  Holes are free and clear of obstructions.  My conclusion is that I need a new/hotter element or different smoke fluid.  I have two bottles of Mega Steam scented smoke fluid on the way.  All I've ever ran was the stock Lionel fluid, but maybe the Mega Steam will be better; though I'm skeptical of this.

Roland

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:08 PM

Mega Steam will make a difference.  Put a load behind that engine.  Put weights in cars and especially hopper cars.  This will make it take more voltage to move it and run it if running conventional.  Newer fan driven smoke units have an issue with the fan turning th wrong way.  Last 4 I bought was that way.

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Posted by Jumijo on Monday, December 17, 2007 5:32 AM
The Polar Express Berk DOES NOT have a fan-driven smoke unit.

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Monday, December 17, 2007 7:02 AM
WE ALL KNOW THAT!!  People with good sence would know the fan thing was posted for information.  Some folks who think they are experts have no common sence I guess.

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Posted by springoflife on Monday, December 17, 2007 9:05 AM

Hi, guys!

This "conversion" sounds like something I want to try!  How long will the pink fiberglass insulation last before it becomes too charred and would require a re-pack?  (Assuming the operator keeps it moist.)

10 hours?  100 hours?  etc.

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Posted by Jumijo on Monday, December 17, 2007 9:12 AM
 springoflife wrote:

Hi, guys!

This "conversion" sounds like something I want to try!  How long will the pink fiberglass insulation last before it becomes too charred and would require a re-pack?  (Assuming the operator keeps it moist.)

10 hours?  100 hours?  etc.

I can't give you an estimate as to how many hours it will last. But when the smoke output is no longer near what it used to be, even after a fill up, that's an indication that a re-pack is in order.

Your common sense will tell you. Wink [;)]

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Posted by springoflife on Monday, December 17, 2007 9:20 AM

Thanks!

One more question, and then I'll try to stop pestering...

My PE Berk HAS the resistor in-line with the element.  It is my understanding that from the factory, some did NOT have this resistor.  But was the heating element the same in both styles of engine?  I don't want to remove the resistor in an attempt to over-drive my element if the element will just burn-out.  If I remove the resistor should the element be changed (to a higher wattage element) too?

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Posted by Jumijo on Monday, December 17, 2007 9:26 AM

 

No. Our PE Berk is an older one, and does not have the same element that is pictured in this thread. Ours doesn't have the ceramic coating on it, but did originally have a tubular wick (sock) that I cut off. I left the resistor alone (it's still there) and mine smokes great. I'd suggest you do the same.

Jim 

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Posted by springoflife on Monday, December 17, 2007 9:29 AM

Will do, thanks Jim!

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Posted by Jumijo on Monday, December 17, 2007 9:30 AM

Springbaby,

Be careful cutting that sock off. The heating element is fragile! Best of luck!

Jim 

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Monday, December 17, 2007 9:45 AM
 Jumijo wrote:
 springoflife wrote:

Hi, guys!

This "conversion" sounds like something I want to try!  How long will the pink fiberglass insulation last before it becomes too charred and would require a re-pack?  (Assuming the operator keeps it moist.)

10 hours?  100 hours?  etc.

I can't give you an estimate as to how many hours it will last. But when the smoke output is no longer near what it used to be, even after a fill up, that's an indication that a re-pack is in order.

Your common sense will tell you. Wink [;)]

Wink [;)]Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]  Merry Chirstmas Jimbo. Smile [:)]

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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Posted by Jumijo on Monday, December 17, 2007 9:46 AM
 ChiefEagles wrote:
 Jumijo wrote:
 springoflife wrote:

Hi, guys!

This "conversion" sounds like something I want to try!  How long will the pink fiberglass insulation last before it becomes too charred and would require a re-pack?  (Assuming the operator keeps it moist.)

10 hours?  100 hours?  etc.

I can't give you an estimate as to how many hours it will last. But when the smoke output is no longer near what it used to be, even after a fill up, that's an indication that a re-pack is in order.

Your common sense will tell you. Wink [;)]

Wink [;)]Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]  Merry Chirstmas Jimbo. Smile [:)]

Merry Christmas, Frank.

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Monday, December 17, 2007 9:47 AM
 Jumijo wrote:
 springoflife wrote:

Hi, guys!

This "conversion" sounds like something I want to try!  How long will the pink fiberglass insulation last before it becomes too charred and would require a re-pack?  (Assuming the operator keeps it moist.)

10 hours?  100 hours?  etc.

I can't give you an estimate as to how many hours it will last. But when the smoke output is no longer near what it used to be, even after a fill up, that's an indication that a re-pack is in order.

Your common sense will tell you. Wink [;)]

Wink [;)]Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D] Pretty good "come back".  Merry Chirstmas Jimbo. Smile [:)]

 God bless TCA 05-58541   Benefactor Member of the NRA,  Member of the American Legion,   Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville Laugh,   KC&D QualifiedCowboy       

              

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